Air Cobras
 

This problem is common for all US Air Cobra modifications, but I will take up AH-1 TOW modification.

So.
Obat 12 USA

Unit 121 AH-1 TOW
Unit 120 AH-1 TOW

Size - 2 EW - 8

First, why the size is so small? In reality AirCobra is slightly bigger than MI-2, that got the in-game size of 3.
Plus a pile of weapons - TOW missiles, FFAR, 20-mm. cannon/2x7,62mm minguns and TI.

Second - EW is sky high. In reality Air Cobra is not so big chopper, there is simply not enough free space in it to carry such powerful EW system (almost on the level of B-52 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif)
Taking into consideration that B-52, sized 6 got EW system of 10, I can assume that Air Cobra should have EW somewhere around 4.

Re: Air Cobras
 

Do you guys ever bother to actually TEST your ideas and see what kind change it makes in gameplay or is this just an exercise in comparing stats?

So in the end the difference is you GUESS it should be lower by comparing it to other things. I did not add the Cobra to the US OOB but until somebody gives me better information than just "I can assume that Air Cobra should have..." it stays the way it is becasue all that is is your opinion in conflict with the opinion of the orginal OOB designer.


Don

Re: Air Cobras
 

Though I don't understand your question (my post is not a result of some "idea" but of a plane logic), I would like to ask a counter question: did you guys ever try to use a simple logic before setting such an improbable unit in the game? To say nothing of thinking about the game balance.
And it is not an "exercise in comparing stats" - if WinSPMBT has pretensions of realism, the size of the unit is to be REAL. So if MI-2 has a size of 3, AH-1 Cobras also have to be the same size. Because in REALITY it is so.
If you want a proof - just search web for MI-2 and Cobra dimensions.

Of course, I'm comparing Cobra to other in-game units - otherwise, what do I have to compare it to? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif
And yes, my (and not only - there are a lot of other people who are agree with me) opinion is in conflict with the opinion of the orginal OOB designer. Because I don't understand their criteria of EW estimation. Could you clarify this for me?
And since you need better information - here it is:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ah-1-specs.htm

No signs of electronic attack pods or something like this - just chaffs and flares.

By the way - what is the modification of these "AH-1 TOW" Cobras?
Due to the time period this is AH-1S Modernized Cobra.
And here is the information:

"....Of 530 Modernized Cobras, 387 were converted for old AG-1G Cobras and 143 were from new Production aircraft. The Modernized Cobra featured a new fire control system with a pilot's M76 Head-Up Display (HUD)............ in addition to the M65 TOW/Cobra missile system, and the M197 20mm gun on the new M97A2 universal turret. The Modernized AH-1S could mount M158 seven-tube, M200 19-tube, M260 seven-tube, or M261 19-tube rocket launchers. The Modernized AH-1S Cobra had an infrared jammer mounted on the top of the engine fairing and a hot metal plus plume infrared suppressor extending from the back of the engine.

As far as I remember, such infrared jammer equipment is equal to the in-game EW of 3.
I think this information should be enough.

Re: Air Cobras
 

As to size differences there is one important thing you shouldn't forget. There are so many units in this game fo any given general type that it is very easy to put them all next to each other in such a way that each next one is only fractionally larger than the one before it. In other words they are nearly the same size and according to your logic they should have the same size in the game. But that would mean the smallest one in the line would still have the same size as the biggest one in the line! Somewhere along the line arbitrary choices have to be made as to where a size upgrade is put in place, even if this means that two units that are nearly equal in size in real life end up with different sizes in the game. It is an unavoidable abstraction of the game.

Then there's the problem of what to look for in 'size' of a unit. I recall an earlier debate for WW2 units on this same issue where the question was how to relate tank height, width and length into one 'size' factor. The british Valentine for example was significantly lower but much wider than other tanks in that period. How to solve that size wise?
Same with helicopters. Do you look at size of the fuselage and if so at the length or width or height in particular? Do you look at the height of the rotor section or the span of the rotors? How do you weigh all these factors to come to a size factor that is 'real'?
The answer is by judgement call. With which you can agree or disagree.

Narwan

Re: Air Cobras
 

Thank you for your reply.

Well, mostly I can agree with you.
But. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif
If you look at MI-2 and Cobra dimensions - you will see that MI-2 is even a bit smaller. Why Cobra that in reality is the same size as MI-2 is one third smaller in game? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif So there is no place for vexed questions.

Re: Air Cobras
 

I'm not sure about it but I think that you miss some point about the size in game: I think it represents not only the actual size of the unit but also his mobility... Why? Because size is used as a factor in to-hit determination, thus it probably includes the agility of the helo, and I'm pretty sure that hitting an Aircobra is much harder than hitting a slow going Mi-8. Am I wrong?

Re: Air Cobras
 

Perhaps you misintepreted my post since there are no vexed questions there, just a clarification of the difficulties in coming to objective and 'realistic' scores for units.

It's simple, there will ALWAYS be instances were two near equally sized units differ in game size. It's unavoidable. The cost calculator compensates for that. Bigger in size means cheaper.

Narwan

Re: Air Cobras
 

There are 554 Unit class 203 "Attack Helicopters" in the game. What are the chances of any group of people deciding on a "size" for a group that large that somebody wouldn't complain about someone elses decision.

The decision was made some time ago that in relation to other attack helos the Cobra should be a 2. When I asked if anybody ever bothers to test the changes they ask for in the game I meant just that. Did you bother to look at other Attack Helicopters and see how the Cobra compares ?? Why are we comparing it to a Light helo? There are Two Hundred and five Unit class 203 "Attack Helicopters" in the game that are size 2. 2 0 5

here's the list. Tell me why the Cobra should be 3 in this group

NationID NationName name slot Size
1 Egypt AH-64D Apache 129 2
1 Egypt AH-64D Apache 130 2
1 Egypt AH-64A Apache 128 2
4 Israel Peten II AH-64D 281 2
4 Israel Peten II AH-64D 980 2
4 Israel Peten II AH-64D 979 2
4 Israel Peten AH-64A 978 2
4 Israel Peten II AH-64D 977 2
4 Israel Tzefa AH-1S 976 2
4 Israel Tzefa AH-1P 975 2
4 Israel Future AH-X 283 2
4 Israel Peten II AH-64D 282 2
4 Israel Peten AH-64A 280 2
4 Israel Lahatut 500MD 279 2
4 Israel Defender 500MD 278 2
4 Israel Tzefa AH-1P 276 2
4 Israel Tzefa AH-1S 275 2
4 Israel Cobra AH-1Q 274 2
4 Israel Cobra AH-1G 273 2
4 Israel Alouette II 272 2
4 Israel Atalef 271 2
5 Japan XOH-64D 951 2
5 Japan XOH-64D 364 2
5 Japan XOH-1S 366 2
5 Japan XOH-1S 362 2
5 Japan XOH-64D 363 2
6 France Alouette IIIa 488 2
6 France Alouette IIIa 489 2
6 France Tigre HAD 496 2
6 France Tigre HAC 499 2
7 Great Britain Apache 189 2
7 Great Britain Scout/AT 540 2
7 Great Britain Apache 543 2
7 Great Britain Apache 547 2
7 Great Britain Apache 550 2
9 Jordan Cobra P 117 2
9 Jordan Cobra T 118 2
9 Jordan Cobra S 116 2
9 Jordan Cobra G 115 2
10 Iran IHI Zafar 300 289 2
10 Iran RH 500 Defender 293 2
10 Iran RH 500 Defender 294 2
10 Iran Bell AH-1J 296 2
10 Iran Bell AH-1J 297 2
10 Iran IHI AH-1J 298 2
12 USA AH-1G Cobra 292 2
12 USA AH-1G SMASH 891 2
12 USA AH-1G Cobra ARA 904 2
12 USA AH-64A Apache 907 2
12 USA Future AH-X 276 2
12 USA AH-64D Apache 908 2
12 USA AH-64D Apache 915 2
12 USA Future AH-X 916 2
12 USA AH-64A Apache 935 2
12 USA AH-64D Apache 936 2
12 USA AH-64D Apache 123 2
12 USA Future AH-X 274 2
12 USA AH-64D Apache 271 2
12 USA AH-64D Apache 270 2
12 USA AH-64A Apache 122 2
12 USA AH-1 Cobra/TOW 121 2
12 USA AH-1 Cobra/TOW 120 2
12 USA AH-1S Cobra 119 2
12 USA AH-1G Cobra 118 2
12 USA Future AH-X 275 2
14 China SA-565 483 2
15 Australia Tiger ARH 460 2
15 Australia Tiger ARH -AT 462 2
15 Australia Tiger ARH -AT 461 2
15 Australia Tiger ARH 458 2
15 Australia Tiger ARH 459 2
15 Australia Tiger ARH 457 2
16 Gulf States SA 565 Panther 115 2
16 Gulf States AH-1P Cobra 117 2
16 Gulf States AH-1E Cobra 118 2
16 Gulf States AH-64 Apache 122 2
16 Gulf States AH-64A Apache 123 2
16 Gulf States AH-64K Apache 124 2
17 Iraq AH-1 Cobra/TOW 963 2
17 Iraq MDH-530MF 128 2
17 Iraq SA-316B 120 2
17 Iraq H-500D 127 2
18 India Chetak SS-11 122 2
18 India HAL Dhruv 125 2
18 India HAL Dhruv 126 2
18 India HAL Dhruv 127 2
19 N Korea MD-500 128 2
19 N Korea MD-500 129 2
20 S Korea AH-1F 121 2
20 S Korea AH-64D 123 2
20 S Korea AH-64D 122 2
20 S Korea AH-1S 119 2
20 S Korea AH-1T 120 2
20 S Korea AH-1J 118 2
20 S Korea MD-500 117 2
21 Taiwan MD-500 117 2
21 Taiwan AH-1W 120 2
21 Taiwan AH-1W2 121 2
23 NVA AH-1 225 2
25 Pakistan AH-1S Cobra 430 2
25 Pakistan AH-1S Cobra 431 2
27 Belgium Alouette II/AT 210 2
27 Belgium Alouette II/AT 205 2
28 Netherlands Alouette - SS11 517 2
28 Netherlands AH-64A Apache 523 2
28 Netherlands AH-64D Apache 524 2
28 Netherlands AH-64N Apache 525 2
28 Netherlands AH-64D Apache 526 2
31 Greece AH-64A Apache 523 2
31 Greece AH-64A Apache 524 2
31 Greece AH-64D Apache 525 2
31 Greece AH-64D Apache 526 2
32 Turkey AH-1P Cobra TOW 483 2
32 Turkey AH-1S Cobra 482 2
33 Spain HA.16 514 2
33 Spain AH-1G 515 2
33 Spain AH-1G/TOW 516 2
33 Spain HA.28 520 2
33 Spain HA.28 521 2
33 Spain HA.28 522 2
33 Spain HA.28 523 2
33 Spain MD-500 583 2
33 Spain MD-500 584 2
34 Italy A-129 CBT 509 2
34 Italy A-129 CBT 508 2
34 Italy A-129 CBT 510 2
34 Italy A-109-AT EC-1 502 2
34 Italy A-129 CBT 507 2
38 Hungary AH-1 Cobra 119 2
38 Hungary AH-1 Cobra 930 2
39 Romania IAR-317 AirFox 405 2
39 Romania IAR-317 AirFox 406 2
40 Libya SA-316B 130 2
41 Yugoslavia Alouette III 126 2
42 Green MD-500 Defender 571 2
42 Green A-109 Hirundo 572 2
44 W Germany PAH-2 Tiger UHT 342 2
44 W Germany PAH-2 Tiger UHT 902 2
44 W Germany PAH-2 Tiger UHT 344 2
44 W Germany PAH-2 Tiger UHT 343 2
44 W Germany PAH-2 Tiger UHT 341 2
44 W Germany PAH-2 Tiger UHT 340 2
44 W Germany Alouette II 335 2
44 W Germany Alouette II/AT 334 2
45 Argentina A-109A Agusta 546 2
45 Argentina A-109A Agusta 547 2
45 Argentina Bell 209 Cobra 548 2
45 Argentina Bell 209 Cobra 549 2
47 Cyprus Hughes 500 138 2
47 Cyprus Hughes 500 139 2
48 Brazil Wasp HAS.1 118 2
48 Brazil SA-550 Fennec 128 2
52 South Africa Rooivalk 189 2
52 South Africa Rooivalk 899 2
52 South Africa Rooivalk 188 2
52 South Africa Rooivalk 171 2
52 South Africa Rooivalk 900 2
52 South Africa Rooivalk 901 2
52 South Africa Rooivalk 902 2
52 South Africa Alouette III 165 2
52 South Africa Rooivalk 170 2
52 South Africa Rooivalk 169 2
52 South Africa Rooivalk 168 2
52 South Africa Augusta 109M/A 167 2
52 South Africa Alouette III 166 2
52 South Africa Alouette III 164 2
53 Switzerland Alouette II 987 2
53 Switzerland Alouette II 986 2
53 Switzerland Alouette II AT 984 2
53 Switzerland Alouette II AT 983 2
53 Switzerland Alouette II AT 982 2
53 Switzerland *Alouette III 224 2
53 Switzerland *Alouette III 214 2
53 Switzerland *PAH-2 Tiger 169 2
53 Switzerland *PAH-2 Tiger 168 2
54 Thailand AH-1S Cobra 480 2
56 Angola SA 316B 151 2
56 Angola SA 565 153 2
58 Cambodia SA-316B 445 2
59 Chile Cardoen A-206 520 2
59 Chile Cardoen A-206 521 2
64 Saudi Arabia AH64D Apache 546 2
64 Saudi Arabia AH64A Apache 545 2
64 Saudi Arabia AH64D Apache 547 2
64 Saudi Arabia SA316B Alouette 541 2
64 Saudi Arabia AH64 Apache 544 2
64 Saudi Arabia SA316B Alouette 542 2
64 Saudi Arabia SA316B Alouette 540 2
69 Kenya Hughes 500MD 145 2
69 Kenya Hughes 500MD 146 2
69 Kenya Hughes 500ME 148 2
69 Kenya Hughes 500ME 149 2
73 Portugal AH-1F Cobra 284 2
75 Zimbabwe SA316B Alouette 120 2
75 Zimbabwe SA316B Alouette 119 2
75 Zimbabwe SA316B Alouette 118 2
81 Mozambique SA-316B 195 2
82 Ecuador Bell AH-1 534 2
83 El Salvador MD-500 MD 117 2
83 El Salvador MD-500 MD 127 2
85 Peru SA 316B 550 2
85 Peru SA 316B 551 2
86 Rhodesia Alouette III-K 76 2
89 Tanzania Hughes 500E 145 2
90 Uganda Agusta 109A 149 2

Re: Air Cobras
 

I figure I won't bother starting a new thread for this, but I decided I'd go and update the entire US Army AH-1 history for one of my OOB packs and noticed the following.

Unit 118 AH-1G Cobra - End date of 12/72. AH-1Gs were only finally converted completely into AH-1S starting in 1976. Suggest making them available until 12/76.

Unit 119 AH-1S Cobra - Cobra with M197 cannon and rockets only. AH-1S 1st and 2nd production run had the same Minigun/40mm AGL combo as AH-1G/AH-1Q, but with TOW capability. Up-gunned AH-1S/AH-1E had no rocket capability.

Also, start date is 1/73, but is equipped with hydra rockets and M197 cannon. Cannon only appears on Army AH-1S 9/78, Hydra 70 system not common until 1981. Should either have later start date (and revised name) or should have earlier start date and Minigun/40mm AGL combo and 2.75" FFAR (weapon 177)

Unit 120 AH-1 Cobra/TOW - Appears to be right for AH-1Q. However, should have same EW as AH-1S (EW 6)

Unit 121 AH-1 Cobra/TOW - Appears to be right for AH-1F. However, TOW-2A not produced until 1987. Should either have TOW or ITOW at this date.

Sources:

http://www.vectorsite.net/avcobra_2.html

http://tri.army.mil/LC/CS/csa/aahist2.htm

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-71.html

http://www.designation-systems.net/d...n-rockets.html


Also, there's no AH-1G in the USMC OOB. USMC recieved AH-1G diverted from the US Army 2/69, pending arrival of the AH-1J.

Re: Air Cobras
 

2 loktarr

Actually - it's MI-2, not MI-8. And yes, MI-8 is slower than MI-2.
And if I am not mistaken, the SIZE in game manual is treated as DIMENSIONS.
Nothing is said about maneuverability or speed or anything else.

2 Don

Well, I don't know the reason why can't we compare Cobra to a light helo. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif
And as far as I can see many choppers from your list are modifications of Air Cobra and Apache. So of course they will be the same size - because they are the SAME US Cobras or Apaches (just Iranian or Japanese or somebody's else) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif So they all (I mean modifications) should be sized 3.

And what about Cobra's EW. Will it be fixed?

Re: Air Cobras
 

I must say it's very informative.
But why do you think that unit 120 AH-1 Cobra/TOW should have EW 6 ?
If you look at me previous post, you will find a link, proving that AH-1S Cobra had infrared jammer equipment, equal to the in-game EW of 3


Here's the information about AH-1F
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...raft/ah-1f.htm

....."The Cobra can also disperse chaff and infrared jamming flares using the M130 general purpose dispenser "....
The same infrared jammer equipment.

Re: Air Cobras
 

First I must admit I was wrong, and took Mi-8 for Mi-2. My apologies for that.
Whatever is in the game manual, the fact is that size is you used to determine if the unit is hit and if it's spotted. It seems to me very clear that if you at overall capacities of both Mi-2 and AH1, the second is much harder to hit: the cobra has same max dimensions, but what about his shape?
But you are right: unit can avoid missiles with maneuvers, so maybe the OOB maker didn't take agility as a factor to determine size.

Re: Air Cobras
 

I welcome all.

The MI-2 and Cobra helicopters are same size.
Look at the dimensions:

Cobra

Main rotor diameter 14.63 m
Fuselage length 13.87 m
Wing span 03.28 m
Width overall 03.28 m
Overall height 04.44 m

MI-2
Main rotor diameter 14.6 m
Fuselage length 11.9 m
Wing span 03.05 m
Width overall 02.65 m
Overall height 3.7 m

images:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/ah-1w.gif

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/5401.gif

Re: Air Cobras
 

2 KraMax

Wow! Great pictures!
Thanks for the dimensions info.

2 loktarr

No, never mimd! I guess it was some kind of a misprint http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
As for the shape - just take a look at the pictures above and tell me which chopper is harder to hit?

Re: Air Cobras
 

I will buy each one and try... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Air Cobras
 

I wasn't getting into the debate over the EW as right or wrong. In terms of what exists, the AH-1Q and AH-1S had the same defensive systems, so in game they should be equal. As it stands now the AH-1S has EW of 6, what is effectively the AH-1Q had EW 7. the AH-1Q should be equal to the AH-1S in the EW category.

Re: Air Cobras
 

Yes, the talk was about AH-1F. I apologize for the misprint.
As for the AN/ALQ-144 - as far as I know this is the very infrared jammer. So this is still in-game EW of 3. Also I would be grateful for the link to your sources.

Re: Air Cobras
 

An EW value of 3 is an EW value of 3. That is one that is one more than 2, and one less than 4. It is nothing to do with a specific type of electronic warfare system. It cannot be - as the game has no concept of infrared, radar, laser optical or whatever in terms of AAA warfare.

The only specific usage of specific EW values are when they are used as magic numbers for non-ew purposes for non AAA units. There, 1-2 is VIRSS and 3-4 is anti-ATGM CIWS.

So "EW" is just a magic number, more being better. And the USA/NATO tends to have better EW numbers than the Soviet ones.


Cheers
Andy

Re: Air Cobras
 

Imformation from:

Gervasi, Tom. Arsenal of Democracy III: America’s War Machine. New York, NY: Grove Press, 1984

Mutza, Wayne. Walk Around: AH-1 Cobra. Carrollton, TX: Squadron/Signal Publications, 2002

Re: Air Cobras
 

2 Andy

Well, I can be mistaken but the principles of IR jammers (chaffs, flares, some decoys etc.) for land and air units are mostly the same.
So here's the Mobhack's Help quotation:
".....A value of 1 in this case is 1 shot of Arena active anti ATGM countermeasures, 2 is 2. 3 is 1 shot of Visual and Infrared Screening Smoke (VIRSS) which ejects anti TI smoke, possibly linked to an IR Jammer as well...."
I repeat, I can be mistaken, but it seems to be right way for aircraft/helicopter IR jammer's estimation in EW points.
And BTW - Could you clarify for me the criteria of in-game EW estimation? What is it based on?

Is it assumptions, or you have documentary proof?



2 thatguy96

Thanks for info, but Internet links would be better.
As for me, I have books on the subject too - but as you can see I use only internet sources. So anyone can check them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Air Cobras
 

Anyone can check them, but they're rarely right. I prefer to stick to published print resources for fact checking, especially of internet sources.

Re: Air Cobras
 

I know what the Mobhack help states, since I wrote the help for my editor. So - please read the complete paragraph from the help file, with the the important bit being highlighted in bold:
So as I said in the post you replied to, an EW number is simply a number where a 1 is better than a 2, in the case where the EW is being used for its normal usage. That is as a defensive AAA value (on planes) or as an offensive item (flak or AAA). Not as a special usage for land units anti-ATGM (or artillery observer fire control which is another dual use of the EW field).

Try looking at an MBT with a 3 or 4 in the EW field in Mobhack - the field is highlighted in blue text and a text string for VIRSS is displayed. A helicopter or a SAM or a plane does not have any such highlighting since it is not a special case usage of the EW field for non-AAA use.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Air Cobras
 

And what about those F117 with EW 20? As far as I can see here EW indicates the stealth technology.



In that case how do you decide what amount of EW points are to be given to each air unit? For example, why does B-52 have EW of 10 - not 8 or 6?
What are yours criterias of in-game EW estimation? What is it based on?
BTW - why USA/NATO tends to have better EW numbers than the Soviet ones?

Re: Air Cobras
 

So I can stick to russian print resources and that will be considered as an argument?

Re: Air Cobras
 

Its happened before around here, I really don't see what the problem is. Print sources have been called upon many times around here, including those in languages other than English.

Re: Air Cobras
 

Thank you, I'm really glad to hear that! I hope that all the others on this forum share your opinion.

Re: Air Cobras
 

Not all printed sources are the same quality, just like not all internet sources are the same quality. And that's the ultimate point, the quality of a source.