Modding Idea List
 

How to instantly generate inspiration for a mod. Match one or more nations from List A with a hook from List B. Optionally, choose a cute game mechanic from list C.

Okay, what is missing from Vanilla?

List A: -- Nations and Cultures --
Russians. Jotunheim is the closest match to Russia among the existing nations - the Hags are rather Baba-yaga like.
East Africans. Ethiopian (especially Coptic) culture has a rich body of folklore. There is some coptic influence in Machaka but it is mostly west african in character.
South Africans.
Tibetans.
Koreans. LE T'ien Ch'i is very Manchurian, and LE Jomon is Japanese, both of which are very similar to Koreans, but not the same.
South-east Asians. Present day Cambodia, Vietnam, Thailand.
Central Asians. Present day Georgia, Armenia, Khazakhstan.
Mongols. Again, LE T'ien Ch'i has some kinda-Mongolian stuff.
Persians. The Abyssians and Caelumites both include some Persian folklore already (or a foreign perspective on Persia, in any case.)
Incan / Nazca. Think "cities of Gold".
Levantines (Arabs, Jews). There is some mention of Anakim and Nephilim in the flavor text of the reserved nation slots, so this might be remedied.
Note: I'm not suggesting a straight-jacket. You can replicate a historical nation fairly closely (as Ermor does Rome) or you can just draw inspiration from their folklore (as Caelum does Persia). Personally I think each nation should be thus-treated-twice.

List B: -- Fantasy Hooks --
Felines. There are no cat-people. You could go the anime root, or hardcore Kzin.
Insectoids. There are no insect-people. You could go for classic klackons, or the high fantasy route and have people with butterfly wings.
Frog-people. Deep ones are kinda like frog people, and frog people are not that different from lizard men. Still, there are no frog people, as such.
All Homonculi. How about a nation composed entirely of artificial people? Examples from fantasy literature: the Serviles from Geneforge are kinda neat. The Orcs from the Ultima games and the Trollocs from the wheel-of-endlessness are both explicitly artificial monsters. Make them all magic beings and give their enemies strong anti-magic-being spells to create a built-in rivalry.
Dwarves. There are some dwarves around but there's no nation of little people, or whatever.

List C; -- Cute Game Mechanics --
Resources Only. Your units (possibly all of them, possibly including heroes) cost resources only. This is a significant advantage (depending on how much they cost) since you can then spend your money on independents, fortresses, etc. This doesn't presently exist.
Free Spawn Units, Hire Leaders. You can't mod free spawn nations as yet. However, you could modify the leaders so that the leaders all have domsummon (and simply don't give any national units otherwise). This can be an advantage or a disadvantage depending on how much you pay for your stuff. It will tend to make you strong later and weak early. This doesn't presently exist either.
All Mages Summoned. Your national mages are all national summons, you can't recruit them. This is a significant disadvantage, unless they are excruciatingly cheap, even in high magic resource games. You could combine this with Resources Only for the units, for example. LA Ermor has this disadvantage.

Please feel free to expand the list! Eventually I'll class mods according to how they fit into this scheme.

Re: Modding Idea List
 

Heehee We could probably come up with an online MadLibs generator for "Wouldnt it be fun if we had a mod that did (A)(B) with (C)?"

Re: Modding Idea List
 

Actually, I'm working on a mod of Brazillian jungle people and frog-creatures.

Re: Modding Idea List
 

I like the idea, Gandalf. I'm more of a refiner and tester of mods than a creator of them. (I have awful art skills.)

About the only one that I did for Dom2 that people seemed to like was the ArcoBlood mod.

As for a Dom3 mod, I'm rather annoyed that there isn't a Heian/'Classical period' Japanese nation. That is, a nation between the Mythical period and the Feudal period. It's a fascinating time period, and I know quite a bit about it. THe main question I have is if there is any way to create a unit that is recruitable everywhere _but_ the capital? You can't really do Heian period without the proto-samurai, but you should have a classically Chinese-style army coming from the capital (think ME Tien Chi) while the outlying lands have the proto-samurai.

Re: Modding Idea List
 

I was planning to do a Vietnam/indochina nation called Dai Gok, for the middle era. Even coded up some units, so we'll see, maybe I'll get that done in the future.

Vedalken: Have you tried out mods here then? All us mod makers are ravenous for feedback ;]

Re: Modding Idea List
 

Most of you, Sombre, I don't think would appreciate my feedback. E.g., if you list something as 'compatible with vanilla', and yet you clearly show little-to-no concept as to the pricing or balancing of units/commanders, it's a bit... odd.

To be positive, I think the Insectoids are very original and fresh, though their sprites seem a bit... big. I thought the Sylvania mod was also quite beautifully done. Seemed a bit limited by its magics, but you can't have everything. :p

From a speculative standpoint... can anyone name a nation that specializes in Fire/Air? Tien Chi gets a smattering of it, as well as any others that get 'elemental' randoms, but it's quite aggravating that some magic combinations are quite well represented on both the spell side and the mage side, and yet others struggle to find either. (Air and almost anything seems the worst, off the top of my head.)

Re: Modding Idea List
 

Well it's very hard for people to balance to vanilla without the help of playtesters. Modders have less time to actually play the game and aren't as good at balance as people who play a ton of MP.

I can only speak for myself, but if I thought one of my mods was balanced (roughly) to vanilla and you thought there were some clear problems which could be pointed out and had some constructive criticism, however harsh,... well I know I'd really like to hear it.

The 'vanilla balance' bit in the mod list doesn't indicate that the mod has been tested to see if it's balanced against vanilla values, only that the modder intends it to be. With a lack of playtesters and testing time, that can be hard to get right.

So throw in your two cents ;]

Edit: As for fire/air, do you mean in mod nations? I know avernum gets Vahnatai mages that are randomly F2A2, F3A1 or F1A3.

Re: Modding Idea List
 

Mainly it's in the pricing of mages, I've seen. There was _definitely_ a formula followed for it in Dom2, and there is almost certainly one in Dom3 (at least for the base game).

I feel like anything I have to say should be part of a test you should have to take before you're allowed to post a mod. A sample question would be:

1) What should the absolute minimum cost for a mage with a 3 path be? (An alternate form of the question: What is the cheapest mage in Dom3 with a 3 path?)

If you really want my input, I'll oblige you, but I tend towards brutal honesty.

Re: Modding Idea List
 

You sound like you could give some useful input and I know that I'd like to hear it. If you're worried other people will get upset you can just comment on my mods if you like ;]

However I think just referring to 'formula' of costing in Dom3 is a mistake. A mod nation could have very cheap or very expensive mages for a thematic reason without actually being over or underpowered in the game. For example if their starting city is awful, they're going to have a lot less money and resources in the early game. Or they might have very expensive mages but a site giving them a large amount of gold and resources in their start city.

Re: Modding Idea List
 

Lets not debate if a mod is balanced to vanilla or not. There is plenty of range in that term "balanced". If a mod maker had a balanced nation in mind then thats what it should be taggged. If they purposely created a super nation (for AI use) then they will say so. IMHO

Re: Modding Idea List
 

Well I've only marked those in the modlist with a 'yes' for 'balanced for vanilla?' if the modder indicated that they were going for that balance. So it would make sense that those are the only ones worth discussing vanilla balance for.

I haven't seen any super nations designed for the AI apart from 'AI Mictlan' which I made and no-one downloaded. So not sure which mods you're referring to.

Re: Modding Idea List
 

Well, I look at the vanilla game (which the mods I'm referring to are supposed to fit in with) and I don't see that kind of issue. To take each of your examples:

1) 'Bad' starting castle type.

I believe Niefelheim has a 30 Admin Starting Castle, yes? I don't see them getting cheap mages by way of compensation for it.

2) Expensive Mages but site that makes money

A more intriguing example, yet one that doesn't seem very balanced, since there's no way to _make_ the player use the money from the site on the mages to 'offset'. A better way to do this would be to make two mages, one capital-only and the other not. The non-capital-only mage would just cost more.

And I did not say 'just referring' to formula. It is a guideline. However, you need to know the rules before you can learn when (and how) to break them. The classic example in the vanilla game is the Daughter of Avalon. If you take into account overall utility, she may be the most cost-efficient researcher in the game. (Philosopher is clearly better but is useless for anything besides research, has old age problems, and is capital-only for a nation that has many capital-only commanders.) She is definitely cheaper than 'the formula' called for. However, she's an arguable.

Most of the mods I've seen, the cases aren't even close to 'the formula'. I guess I'll hunt down each mod's thread and point out things.

Gandalf: I believe I have restricted myself in this thread to the mods noted as 'meant for vanilla' which, as Sombre notes, is by modder choice.

Re: Modding Idea List
 

I think your making a fairly big assumption, that mods which are marked 'balanced for vanilla' are actually made to 'fit in' with the vanilla nations. One of the big draws of modding is that you can do something different, not just make a version of Mictlan with different graphics, or renamed Ulm units. Taking Avernum as an example, it doesn't really 'fit' with vanilla nations; it's very different in a number of ways. I never actually made any attempt to make it similar to the vanilla sides.

What I did /try/ to do was make it so you could play it alongside the vanillas and not be hugely over or underpowered. Any constructive feedback helping me do that is appreciated.

I gave you two random examples of how mods can be balanced differently. These methods may not appear in the vanilla game, but when you're dealing with mods you have to accept they aren't always going to follow 'patterns' set out by vanilla. The thing to aim for is to stop them being hugely over or underpowered (worse than the worst dom3 nation or better than the best).

Re: Modding Idea List
 

Sombre, that is the exact issue I am discussing. I am concerned that a nation is overpowered or underpowered relative to the vanilla nations. Not that they are necessarily a 'slightly modded vanilla nation'. Basically, when I see 'balanced for vanilla', I think to myself, "If someone played this in a MP game with others, would anyone call foul?"

Avernum is quite a nice mod, from what I saw. I'm not sure if I caught all the parameters (the Vashnai units did not seem useful enough to justify their presence), but I was able to put together a credible game or three with them. (Specifically, I used their lizard infantry IIRC to expand.) Avernum may need a bit of tweaking, but its _premise_ is sound.

What I'm referring to is something more like this. You can generally get about 6 research out of a 150g non-sacred mage (in a magic-neutral domain). Well, if someone comes out with a mod that has a 120g sacred mage that generates more research than that, the first thing I do is try to find what deficiency that is making up for. If I can't find one, then I question the wisdom of that decision.

Am I making myself a bit clearer? Sorry for any confusion.

Re: Modding Idea List
 

Just making sure we're on the same page. You could have a nation that has a 120g sacred mage who can research up a storm, but they might also start with little gem production, have poor sacreds, rampant old age problems and be crippled by a low admin startfort.

Sometimes you have to consider the nation as a whole. That's harder than following a forumla. On the other hand, following a rough forumla does make balancing a lot easier.

I think we agree on what needs to be done for balance, so I'd be happy for you to comment on my mods. Other people might not see eye to eye with you, buyt they're putting their work in a public forum, so I think it's fair to comment on theirs too. Look foward to seeing what you have to say :]

Re: Modding Idea List
 

I'll look into it. I think I'll refrain from talking about others' mods, since I'm already getting comments... ah well.

Re: Modding Idea List
 

Well, not everyone knows what the cheapest 6rp mage in dom3 is, or how much an oldage sacred caster with 3 paths of fire and 2 of water should generally cost. Nothing wrong with information sharing, but you can't act like people are clueless for not knowing stuff like that.

I have only been playing dom3 for a comparatively short amount of time. I enjoy modding and I'd like to make balanced nations, but my expertise is limited by lack of experience. I know virtually nothing about the lategame of clams and gem hoarding, spamming summons etc for instance.

It's theoretically possible to give people balance suggestions without offending them too ;]

Re: Modding Idea List
 

Theoretically, I guess. *sigh* It's just what does or does not offend me is not what offends most people, and so I generally step on people's toes without realizing it.

I don't mind if people don't know. However, I would like to point out here that there was a formula posted on IW's site for Dom2 on how to calculate a mage cost. And, while far from perfect, it did get you 'in the ballpark'.

And you can always do research. Let's see, you want a sacred mage that has 6rp, right? Okay, well, let's see, Mictlan gets that, with Holy-2 besides, but they're about 220g and have old age issues. And they're capital-only, for the most part. But hey, there are also the Theurgs, who are 150g, 6 rp, and Sacred. They also have Old Age problems. So probably somewhere between those two would be okay.

This shows you my thought processes when making a mage. Use already existing mages as a base, then tweak from there.

Edit: There's also the idea that 3 in one path and 1 in another path is worth 'more' than 2 in each of two paths. See, I see these kinds of things when I play through the game, and I ask these kinds of questions (like, "Why is this mage so much more expensive than this one?"). Don't most people?

Do you see what I mean?

Re: Modding Idea List
 

Well it seems like you have a better idea of balance than most and I think that's useful

There are always things that one person finds easy to spot and other people find hard. A few modders here are very good at graphics, others couldn't get that good if they practised every day. Some people know a lot about history and languages, some are more interested in working out whether order misfortune or turmoil luck gives a better income on average after 50 turns.

Best to combine our strengths, I reckon, and without toe stepping, if possible.

Re: Modding Idea List
 

Heh. Yes, I freely admit I have no talent at art. (I tried, too!) I see myself as an analytical problem-solver, and so I tend to approach everything like that.

Re: Modding Idea List
 

Mods can always be rebalanced post-development.

I have a long-running intention to do some extensive playtesting on the existing new-nation mods, and see if I can get them all fairly balanced against eachother.

Re: Modding Idea List
 

You could just help me out with CBM balance versions. Unless you don't like CBM for some reason.

Re: Modding Idea List
 

Indeed, I don't like CB.

Once the megamod can actually be played, I'll be releasing the following mods:
1) A new nation megamod. This will include new nations (incl. the many by Amos) which I have rebalanced for Vanilla. I'm still running sims and studying to get the balance right. There will actually be three versions, one for each era, once they are playable, I'll see if I can talk people into doing a few cycles of playtesting.

2) An expansion megamod. The "black tome of alsophocus" plus some additional nations based on existing nations (so EA Mahcaka, LA Pythium, etc,) plus the worthy heroes mod. This will also need playtesting.

If anyone wants to fork either of those to make it conceptually balanced or whatever, it wouldn't bother me at all, but I disagree with CB so completely that I don't think discourse on the topic is even useful.

Re: Modding Idea List
 

I'd be very keen to help with testing for number 1). I've been thinking a bit of multiplayer mod action would be fun for a while now.

Re: Modding Idea List
 

Well I'm curious; without trashing CB (it represents hard work by a group of people), what is it that you don't like about it? Seems like a few posters around here are dead set against it and I'm not sure why.

Re: Modding Idea List
 

I think that the entire process guiding the CB mod is fundamentally flawed, and not salvageable.

I disagree with the basic philosophy, I disagree with essentially every change that they make, note only that the stated goals are not good or desirable, but that the changes made do not achieve those goals.

I could go over the list of why I don't like them but it's been done by others and I see no profit in repeating the discussion.

Re: Modding Idea List
 

Could you then point me to where the discussion took place?

I'm genuinely interested in balance discussion and your reply isn't really telling me anything, other than that you 100% disagree with everything in the CB. I don't see why, but if you don't want to go into it, fair enough.

I'm not any kind of balance expert, but a lot of the changes made by the CBM make sense to me. I was under the impression that it was generally held to be more balanced than vanilla, but again I don't really have the experience to make that call myself. I can see that vanilla totally favours using only certain units/spells, making a great deal of the variety in dom3 worthless. CB make changes with the aim of rectifying this, which is attractive to me.

If there was some other theory of balancing the game for better variety I might be on board with that too, but I haven't seen one.

Re: Modding Idea List
 

I tend to agree with Sombre's point. When I play with the CBM (and I play with and without it), I tend to like it, though there are some minor points (Awaken Sleeper at too early a level, I think) that I can disagree with.

Re: Modding Idea List
 

Well, in the vanilla game many units and spells are niche - only useful under specific, fairly narrow circumstances.

CBM tends to flatten everything out, making all units equal.

So, yeah, you use everything - but it doesn't make any difference what you use because everything is the same.

That's an exaggeration.

It makes some efforts to tone-down W9F9 blesses - but encourages D9N4 blesses (for example). It also fiddles with the costs for boosting items in a way that is ill-considered, IMO.

Re: Modding Idea List
 

I don't think it really flattens the units out too much. I mean it's not like it makes the elite units any less elite. It just makes them cost more if they were stupid powerful. And the crappy low end units need something to make them more attractive or they will /never/ be useful. Actually even at 9 or 8 gold instead of 10 some units are still damn near useless - there's no real niche for units which are strictly inferior. Like for Mictlan in CB they raise the cost of the jaguar warriors considerably - that makes sense to me, since Jaguar warriors were cheap, available everywhere, sacred, low resource cost, even without bless were extremely powerful and hard to kill etc etc. The end result being that in vanilla /no-one/ could use sun warriors without handicapping themselves. By making jags less uber, at least people might think about using sun warriors if the situation suites them. So there you have a unit restored to its niche role (against massed shortbows, if you have tons of resources, if you want an earth/blood bless etc) and hopefully more variety.

The item costing I honestly don't know about. If you say they made bad mistakes changing the costs there I can't disagree, I don't have enough experience with forging.

I like the fact that some truly awful summons were reduced in gem costs. I mean who would ever use reanimation at its old cost? It might as well not have been in the game. I also like the changes to the scales, since stuff like the magic scale just didn't make sense to me in vanilla.

You don't like it, I'd still like to know more, but if you're talked out about it that's cool. I'm going to stick with it, maybe work out which bits work which bits don't for myself.

Re: Modding Idea List
 

I haven't noticed much in the way of forging that was an issue, though Owl Quills at lvl0 threw me for something of a loop. As I said, there were a couple things I didn't necessarily agree with, but they weren't sufficient to get me to chuck it out the window.

I feel that the summons especially were 'improved'. Now I don't feel like I'm wading through a lot of subpar choices to get to the one I want. IOW, a spell should be able to justify its presence, or otherwise why have it?