The Pantokrator!
 

I was wondering-for the purposes of creating a mod-what peoples' opinions would be as to the form the Pantokrator would take, and the race of people it would lead, if the (obviously limited) former Pantokrator were to show up in a game as a neutral power. The idea for this is that the Pantokrator has been greatly weakened by the escape of various gods he once captured and used for his power, but he's not gone/dead, and still needs to be "physically" defeated by the player-nations before they can fight it out amongst themselves.

Re: The Pantokrator!
 

I imagine the Pantokrator as a juggernaut of a titan that is a recurring theme in European mythologies. Examples would be Chronus from Greek mythology and Ymir from Norse mythologies. In both instances, a god was overthrown and new gods arose to struggle to take his place. It is a common theme in mythology and I think it would fit Dominions nicely.

Re: The Pantokrator!
 

Er...

Do you even know what the word means? To give the reference:

http://www.reference.com/search?r=13&q=Pantocrator

Re: The Pantokrator!
 

You can also play as the pantokrator in the Mytheology pretenders mod. Just mentioning that in case you hadn't noticed.

Re: The Pantokrator!
 

Yeah, I have seen the internet definitions saying it means Jesus Christ.

I think Dominions uses the word in a different context. In one of my Religions classes, Pantokrator had a different meaning. It meant all powerful, usually used in the context of an earlier supreme diety.

And the link you posted supports this somewhat. One of the definitions listed actually says :

The most common translation is "Almighty" or "All-powerful." In this understanding, Pantokrator is a compound word formed from the Greek words for "all" and the noun "strength" (κρατ&#959 ;ς). This is often understood in terms of potential power; i.e., able to do anything, or omnipotentent.

"Another translation is "Ruler of All" or "Sustainer of the World." In this understanding, Pantokrator is a compound word formed from the Greek for "all" and the verb meaning "To accomplish something" or "to sustain something" (κρατ&#949 ;ω). This translation speaks more to God's actual power; i.e., God does everything (as opposed to God can do everything)."

Which I think would have fit Chronus and Ymir (Especially) nicely before the other gods came along.

The internet is not the end all - be all of definitions and meanings of words. Take the word "myth" for instance. One of our assignments was to define "myth" in the context of religion. The correct answer was "A story (True or False) that reveals a profound truth." or some junk. None of us found that definition on the internet, so no soup for us.

Re: The Pantokrator!
 

...

You're not understanding what I'm saying, do you? *sigh* You're taking it out of context. Yes, it means 'almighty', but did you read the etymology on the page, or did you just pick and choose what would support your argument?

And I used the site because it was handy. I have an Orthodox Bishop living with me if you want more detailed information. Somehow, I don't think you do.

Re: The Pantokrator!
 

I suspect, as in most things in Dominion, the definition would be the one from times previous to present day religions. Remember that Kristoffers day job is teaching ancient religion

Re: The Pantokrator!
 

Possibly. It's certainly useful as a term that means exactly what you want it to mean and yet no one knows it except for the privileged few. (Hmm, would that make it Gnostic?)

I'd be interested in hearing in exactly which religions it's actually been used as a term. The only place I've run across it is in Orthodox iconography.

Re: The Pantokrator!
 

I am not trying to offend your religion. I am just giving you an account as to how it was used in one of my Religions courses. I picked through and found the part in your definition that supports that, but I didn't just pull my original definition of the word out of thin air.

I still have the course book, it is called "Ways to the Center".

I would also like to add that my interpretation of the word does not necessarily imply that I feel it is the only interpretation. I don't feel that in this context, the word means Jesus Christ.

I feel in this context, the word holds closer to the definition I gave, because in the game the Pantokrator is dethroned, and new pretender gods squabble for power. I still hold on to my argument that this theme is seen throughout European mythology, particularly Norse and Greek, and that is where I am drawing the visual representation.

The Pantokrator could have been a 6 legged dog in the mind of the Dominions 3 developers as far as I know. I was just offering suggestions as to how to do a visual representation of it for a mod.

I feel your comments on the other hand, are narrow minded and spring forth from some need to defend your beliefs and exact them on other people.

My interpretation of the word is as follows : A supreme diety who rules or dwells without challenge.

Re: The Pantokrator!
 

And where did I state that I thought that the name referred to Christ? Certainly the Orthodox use it in that sense. And the only etymology I could find, on a religious-neutral site, supported my understanding of the term.

My issue is not the who of the application, it is the when. It feels anachronistic to use the term to refer to pre-Christian religions if the term did not come into usage until the Christian era. That is why I am currently checking to see exactly when and to what the term has been applied in history.

I am fairly certain, having had several very pleasant discussions on religion with the designers, that they don't view the Pantocrator in their own minds as such. However, that is neither here nor there.

However, I'd like to ask exactly why you think I'm responding to this out of some religious fervor. You don't know my religion, and yet you attribute (incorrectly) my motives to some notion in your own mind as to how religious people behave. I find that... odd.

Ah well. I hope I've explained myself to you somewhat better now.

Re: The Pantokrator!
 

No fighting in the war room!

Re: The Pantokrator!
 

I will not continue this discussion with you anymore, because I am beginning to realize from reading a few other threads that the argument has nothing to do with the word at all.

We have a difference of opinions and to top it off, when you tried to call me out on what the definition of the word really is, I found evidence in your attempt to troll me that my definition is acceptable.

Re: The Pantokrator!
 

I don't see anything in the link posted that implies that the title "Pantokrator" is exclusive to Christianity. It means "Almighty," which makes it a fine word for the Dominions precursor-God. Using a word with real-world historical associations adds flavor (much better than "the Precursor" or "the Elder God" for instance), but if you're hinting that Dominions 3 is supposed to fit within some kind of mutant Christian theology I think you'll have to present stronger arguments than just a name.

Edit: I don't mean to sound overly skeptical. Perhaps I mean, "Do you think you could restate your point, please? Because I think I'm not seeing it clearly."

-Max

Re: The Pantokrator!
 

...

Where in any of this did I say that I thought the word was exclusively tied to Christianity? The _etymology_ and _history_ of the word do seem to be, which is why I call it anachronistic.

Do you really think I would have posted a link to a site without reading it, or checking on the issues at hand? Yes, it means 'Almighty'; it says so on the site I linked to, and I have no qualms about that. As I've stated previously before. Also, _I_ did not bring Christianity into this at all. The site meantions it, yes, but that is hardly a religious source. If I wanted to cite religious sources, believe me, I could.

I don't see why people are thinking I'm trying to persuade them of something I'm not.

*sigh*

I can tell you, Foodstamp, that yes, the argument has to do with the application of the term to prechristian deities. That seems anachronistic from the sources I've read; if that is not true, please give me a source and I'll be happy with it.

I am honestly not understanding any of this brouhaha.

Re: The Pantokrator!
 

Okay, I think I see. "My issue is not the who of the application, it is the when. It feels anachronistic to use the term to refer to pre-Christian religions if the term did not come into usage until the Christian era. That is why I am currently checking to see exactly when and to what the term has been applied in history." Makes perfect sense now.

It was the initial "Er" post that threw me off in the wrong direction.

Thanks,
Max

Re: The Pantokrator!
 

Well, this is a bizarre turn of events...

Um...yeah

*cough*

Ok...so...does anybody *else* have any cool ideas about a really powerful neutral Pretender and nation for use in a mod?

Re: The Pantokrator!
 

I think a super AI nation made from the best sacreds of all other nations might be fun. You could even give it multiple national pretenders as commanders using map commands.

But as for the overall pretender,... a modded form of the panto from Mytheology would be cool.

Re: The Pantokrator!
 

We're not talking about the what the name means people! that wasn't the question! he was asking what we thought the previous Pantokrator might take as physical form, how you guys managed to have an argument over this I'll never know, if you want to continue arguing make a different topic about it and not in the mods section.

As for me! I think an idea for a previous Pantokrators appearance would be a large divine giant, something with the power to wipe out entire armies by himself, like a giant armour clad titan.

you could also have it if you wished, that he was banished to the Inferno or the Void and that disappearance strengthened the other pretenders, and when the previous Pantokrator returns he is sickly and twisted beyond measure.

Re: The Pantokrator!
 

Because you never stated your point, or even what in the first two posts you disagreed with.

Comparing the dom3 pantocrator with Ymir from norse mythology doesn't seem that odd to me... a matter of opinion I guess.

A giant wizard-warrior-poet with 4-5 lvl 9 magic paths and 400 hp. Default weapon could be Harvest blade, like the artifact but without berserk.

Yeah, the nation could have sacred elites from all parts of the world: pangea white centaurs, ea vanheim sacred infantry, ea T'ien sword dancers (but not vans or niefel jarls).

And perhaps some tower shield guys from pythium or MA ermor as non-sacreds, since they seem to be the best organized armies.

But the side discussion is so much easier to take part in than coming up with ideas http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Awsome idea. Explains why he's less powerfull.

Re: The Pantokrator!
 

Thanks mivayan!

I personally don't like the idea of having sacreds from other nations, if they were changed slightly it would make more sense, like say for the middle age, a group of knights from Ermor predicted the decent into the death cult and left while they could discovering the previous Pantokrator and joining him!