Dud nations
 

Which, if any, nations do you think are "duds"- underpowered and/or too narrow to make a go of it in a competitive game without alot of luck or diplomatic success?

My list:

EA Ulm- a bad army and average casters, I just don't see anything to like. Half cold resistence, two move, forge bonuses and some stealth are all nice, but crome rims and a bad engine still make a bad car.

MA Ulm -Dom3 is a magic game with armies, not the other way around and MA Ulm is just a kinfe fighter in a gunfight. The heavy armor is halfway negated by the high encumbrance and costs so many resources that i seldom see much Black plate, people just build slightly more regular plate. The PD seems designed for a civil war as the fine arbalasts are just the thing for shooting your own super armored guys in the back and fire too slowly to be good against more the more lightly armored enemy. The national MR penalty is just insulting, not to mention seemingly unthematic. Shouldn't the anti-magic guys have extra MR? That's the way it always in in fantasy books. The forge bonus is great, but compared with so many of the other nations they seriously lack an excellent leader to put them on. Knights are ok, but don't have enough HP to be real thugs.

Despite all that, I have seen Ulm do well, and this one's the most debatable of the three.

MA Argatha- The other two Argathas rock, but this one seems to lack both a good army and good casters. There's decent capitol only unit and caster, but that's it and that don't cut it in the Middle Age. In DomII Golem Cult was perhaps the best theme, but are big stone things really sufficient to conquer the world without some very lethal backup? They can hold the line, but something has to kill the enemy, and I don't know what they have that can do that.

Re: Dud nations
 

I would add the early age water nations, in particular EA r'lyeh and EA oceania - having all your decent troops and mages stuck in the water is just not a good thing. Looking at EA r'lyehs mages in comparison to MA r'lyeh there is just so much thats worse (only 2 misc slots, water only, less random paths), and this in an age where most nations are stronger than in MA.

Re: Dud nations
 

I have played alot of nations now and everyone of those nations has had something about them that I like or could be useful in winning a game. So for me I have yet to come across a 'dud' nation.

I totally disagree on MA Agartha, that nation has 2 capital only recruitable SC's, a warrior and a mage. Few other MA nations have that. It has the golem cult. Also umbrals, stealthy, etheral only cost 2D gems. Its sacreds are pretty good troops with a strong bless. Its mages are perfect for casting magma eruption which is a hugely devestating battlefield spell, other spells like earthquake, destruction, bladewind, invulnerability, ironskin, stoneskin, weapons of sharpness etc are all good.

It also has a 5E gem/turn income from the word go, a good strategy with this nation could be research to earth deep blood well, cast that. Then research constuction to the forge of ancients and get that up with your now huge earth income. Then go onto unique artifacts to grab as many as possible.

Finally, MA Agartha has access to skull mentor and lightless lantern, so is a decent research nation.

All in all pretty good if you ask me.

I have never played EA or MA Ulm so cannot comment on those. I have seen both do well in MP.

If I had to put forward a 'dud' nation it would be LA Atlantis, I have never played it but I looked at it once and it struck me as very mundane. Can anyone convince me, why I should give LA Atlantis a go? A shame because EA Atlantis is one of my favourite nations.

Re: Dud nations
 

I'm currently trying LA Atlantis in an SP game for the first time and so far they aren't bad. The lack of long range missle troops stings of course, but many of the rank and file have magic weapons and the Assartut's weapons also cause weakness. So far the only thing I have any real problem with is that the Angakots are only recruitable at home.

I have not tried EA Oceania, but I just finished a very long SP game as EA R'Lyeh. I had to heavily rely on indy troops when out of the water. The Gibodai and Giboleths are great in the water, but you can't take them out like you can Ilithids and this is a major obstacle to early land colonization. The lack of magic item slots on the Aboleths and Mind Lords, on top of the fact that 1 of them has to be an amulet of the fish to take them on land, also makes them less useful than the Ilithid commanders that only lack feet. Also as MA R'Lyeh (I haven't tried LA R'Lyeh yet), you can get the free hybrids in coastal forts and build various hybrids in any land fort whereas EA R'Lyeh is stuck with whatever land troops you can find. The free Polypal spawns that the Polypal Mothers and the Polypal Queen give you are stuck in the water too. I enjoy playing R'Lyeh, but it took me several false starts to get a victory as EA R'Lyeh.

Re: Dud nations
 

EA Ulm is doing extremely well in both games I'm in. Their troops are probably the best non-sacred troops in EA...a bit resource heavy, but most of them are still a 1:1 gold/resource ratio. Their mages aren't obviously powerful but they work very well as (de)buffers...Flaming arrows, strength of giants, legions of steel, destruction, etc. and can then go to town with some basic-but-functional evocation spells. The cold resistance is a bonus, not a feature, and it lets them take a cold-3 scale a little bit more easily since they won't have penalty fatigue from cold...and everyone loves more pretender points.

I haven't played as them myself, but I did watch their basic troops butcher one of my kitted out niefel jarls in a single round of combat. They're not at all weak.

Re: Dud nations
 

I am playing EA Ulm in one MP game (War is Hell) and actually doing very well... I will put in the caveat that I was lucky in my starting placement and was able to gain a large number of provinces very quickly.

That being said, I feel EA Ulm has alot going for it. Their troops are rather good, I feel. Warrior Maiden, Steel Maidens and Shield Maidens are all cheap, stealthy and quite decent. With a good fortress you can recruit many in one turn. The forge bonus is very nice, especially once you forge hammers.

Yes, Ulm's mages are weak, but they do make up for this somewhat in versatility. Access to Death, Earth, Fire, Nature, Air and Water is nothing to sniff at... especially given that in EA you have a decent chance of finding some indy mages to help you out. That being said, Ulm is probably weaker than most in the Late Game, but i wouldnt write them off completely.

Re: Dud nations
 

Meg,

(i only play ma, so all of my comments by default, are limited to ma).

it depends. MP if you are argatha and start out next to vanaheim on a smaller map, and the person playing vanaheim is your equal, you can forget about reaching stage 2 of the game.

Ulm, I do think ulms low mr is backwards. And I do think they should should be able to produce heavily armored troops at a lower esource cost.

Ideally, Ulm is a warrior race, a race of steel. They should get mr bonus, and their troops morale should be high, not average. They should really have the best infantry in the game, but they have among the worst. Their description makes me think of Sparta, highly trained troops. But for some reason, arcosphale has better infantry, better armor, mr, morale.

I think ulm should have such good melee units, it does not need magic. But they are extremely vulnerable to magic, their troops take tons of resources to build, despite the forge bonus etc, they are slow, their supposed great strength and training still does not allow them to do more than plod under the weight of their armor, and their morale is a lowly 10 with no way to boost it(low priests, no standard bearer).

I have played ulm, and can do well with ulm sp. Good players can do well with any set of cards dealt. But I am disappointed from a role playing standpoint, that Ulm is not the master of melee combat.

Take away their spies, seige engineers, drain scale bonus, and make their troops the best the humans have to offer. If any race should be able to ignore research and march to victory based solely on its armies it should be ulm, not vanaheim!

Re: Dud nations
 

For me, EA Ulm is one of the strongest, not one of the weakest, nations. They expand _very_ easily in the early game with their Axe Throwers. And their Magic isn't all that bad.

Re: Dud nations
 

I think EA Ulm is strong. Shield Maidens are fast to recruit and can defeat most opponents without getting hurt. Their archers are also good. They can rush and defeat many opponents early without even needing magic, or just expand very quickly.

I've just spent the morning trying MA Agartha, and I think they're strong too. Their human troops are like a variant of MA Ulm, which can be quite strong when used well, and are good for steady expansion. Also they have armored amphibians, who can expand quickly against underwater independents. Then magic summons and not so bad mages, national summons, Golem Cult bonus... they seem pretty good to me.

MA Ulm is one of my favorites, but I agree they seem a bit weak, especially with competition like MA Agartha. I don't agree that the armor advantage is negated by the encumbrance, or that their morale is a problem - the counter to that is using a large enough army, at which point it survives, gains experience, and becomes a tough meat grinder when used correctly. I agree that I wish they had an MR bonus rather than a penalty, though they've always been that way, and they do now have a national spell to make up for that point. The knights can be used as thugs if you do it carefully and have the stomach for it. HP aren't everything. But in general ya, Ulm is in trouble because of all the easy-access powerful magic in Dominions, as it always has been. I would say though that they are the weakest of the three you mentioned. But I still really enjoy playing them, especially in SP.

Re: Dud nations
 

I think EA R'lyeh (Aboleths) is difficult if you're inexperienced with them-and even if you are, but I certainly wouldn't call them a "dud-nation". Yes, they could use some help, but they're not wreaked, just challenging.

Re: Dud nations
 

EA Rlyeh and oceania arent great. MA Mictlan isnt bad but is weak compared to its EA and LA counterparts.

Re: Dud nations
 

EA R'lyeh needs better troops-most of the troops they get are lousy and unnecessary. The only ones worth anything that aren't Aboleths are the Shambler Thralls, and they aren't great.

If they got slave trolls-even as a national summon-and "rogue" mindlords *do* get them when you find Aboleths in neutral provinces, they'd be much, much better.

It wouldn't hurt if there were some kind of a sacred version of the Aboleth/Mind-Lord, too, since there are young sacred Aboleths.

I'd also really like to see some better Province Defense for these guys, too-because they're a particularly slow nation, and need it.

The biggest problem with Aboleths is that the only good units they get are Mind-Lords. They're great units, admittedly, but they can't be a nation by themselves.

Re: Dud nations
 

All very good points.

The PD only worked for me when backed up by mobile forces or for piecemeal attacks. The morale of the non-lobotimised slave troops is nominally 8 and being that most of the PD are such slave troops that doesn't help. MA R'Leyh's PD at least gets the Lobo Guards which don't rout.

The Shambler Thralls I had posted about earlier. I like them overrall and only needing 1 resource and having 50 morale is great, but they get eaten alive by arrow fire, and they are mindless so accrue no xp. Once I had empowered more of my Mind Lords with air and summoned an Air Queen I had Arrow Fend up quite often to help with this.

Mind Lords are really nice except for the lack of magic item slots problem. I had a ton of amulets of the fish made up for these guys. I'd hate to try EA R'Lyeh without having access to air magic though. I had started my Polypal Queen with heavy magic, including some air and through an event acquired an indy mage with air that I empowered a bit to help with item creation too.

There are several ways to bring air breathers down below the waves, but barring the self-only amulet of the fish, there is no way to bring the water breathers out. That severely cuts the effectiveness of the Gibodais and Giboleths.

I don't feel that EA R'Lyeh is a straight-up dud, but they were much more difficult to win with than the other nations I have won Dom3 with so far (MA R'Lyeh, LA Argartha, EA Lanka, EA Yomi).

Re: Dud nations
 

Hmm. A good topic. I'm more interested in knowing which units and summons people think are duds, so I might make a new thread.

Re: Dud nations
 

No dud love for MA Mictlan?

I'm neither very fond of LA Ctis either.

EA Oceania and EA Ryleh make up for their weak amphib capacity by being much stronger underwater than EA Atlantis, and they should dominate the waves.

I would hesitate to call LA Arco a dud, but they do lose quite a lot of power and gain only a little variety in their troops. I like them in SP but i wonder if they're not rather weak in Multi.

As i've said before, Marverni is a very very weak nation as well that has all but one unit (the Druid) that you must base your whole strategy around. Their basic troops are worse than indie Barbarians. Good luck surviving without an Awake pretender.

I actually think EA Arco might be rather weak in all honestly, although i can see players doing well with them. If you play them thematically (3 magic/3 sloth), and make best use of philosophers, your still sort of stuck "rolling" for good randoms on your Mystics. Depending upon what randoms you get your game could be very strong or very weak.

Re: Dud nations
 

I wouldn't by any means call EA Oceania weak. They have the single *best* sacred troop in the whole game, and Triton Kings with 4 water right off the bat.

Run well, they should be the Helheim of the ocean.

If they were amphibious, they'd be the best nation in the game, in my opinion.

R'lyeh Aboleths is easily the weakest of the bunch.

EA Atlantis could really use more national summons-especially weird, squishy/flappy ones, to go along with that whole Lovecraft jones-overall, though, I'd say they're the most balanced water nation.

Re: Dud nations
 

I tend to agree about ME Agartha.

I should note that ME Agartha does *not* get skull mentors. Those guys have a whopping 2.5% chance of DD, and they're capital only.

This also means that, unlike every other era of Agartha, you can't cast darkness, which is your killer ap. This isn't to say that ME Agartha doesn't have some strengths. Those statues really are quite excellent.

Ulm may be slightly underpowered (Master Smiths should probably have 100% on that random), but not hugely so.

EA Ulm gets superior troops and doesn't pay more gold for them. They're also only resource heavy if you want them to be. They max out at 2 in most paths, but they get every element, nature and death.

EA Arco is not weak - it is *difficult*. It can produce more research than any other nation, and it has a great variety of magic (every element, astral, nature) incl. the ability to form communions. Your military kinda bites but not so badly that it can't be salvaged.

EA Marverni, on the other hand, has an utterly dreadful military, and no research bonus. That's a weak nation. If they had philosophers they'd be fine, but they don't - which means they're stuck with magic that-will-eventually-be-great but you-won't-survive-to-use-it. I've never seen Marverni survive the initial rush of wars. Possibly this is just because experienced players avoid playing it.

The other nations that could use some help are ME T'ien Ch'i and Bandar Log. ME T'ien Ch'i isn't terrible, but it gets none of the cool stuff available to the other eras of T'ien Ch'i. Bandar Log has the same problem as Marverni, although at least you get elephants.

Shinuyama is also kinda weak. You can do darkvision+darkness, which is cool, but all of your stuff is just overpriced.

Re: Dud nations
 

My issue with ME Ulm is more thematic. They are not the best race or even in the top 5, of sword and steel. that is their theme, but put one of ulms infantry up against one from arcos and they suck. Ulm's infantry should be the best, best armor, best morale, best overall, and it is not close.

Even Pangaea's infantry, not counting the recuperation, is much better. While not quite as much prot(16 is still good),
it has more hp and much much higher defense, mr, and more hps as well.

So my beef is that every race should fear Ulm's infantry, but in reality whose does? Very few.

Re: Dud nations
 

I don't really agree that the theme of Ulm ME is supposed to be ultra elite soldiers. They're an armour nation and they have some scary knights but nothing in the infantry descriptions makes me think anything other than standard feudal man-at-arms infantry. You compare them with Sparta, but I just don't see anything like that in the descriptions.

Re: Dud nations
 

Well, I don't have a problem with them not being Spartans, but I'd like to ask the question-provided they're not, then what *are* they? They started out Cimmerians, ended up Carpathians, what's in the middle? What qualities make them a distinct nation, rather than just a placeholder?

Re: Dud nations
 

Super-heavy armour nation of smiths. Based on germanic european culture.

Not all the nations in Dom3 have to exactly match up with a mythology or historical period.

Re: Dud nations
 

Is this supposed to be duds for multiplaying on blitz maps (small maps, few players)? I dont think you can expect agreements unless you set the parameters. Duds for MP blitz are very different than duds for RPG or for large maps or for alliances.

Re: Dud nations
 

No, they don't have to "match" anything, but that's not what I meant.

If they *are* a "super-heavy armour nation of smiths", what does that translate into? What does it mean? Can they make iron constructs? are they mounted knights? Are they all Elrics armed with Stormbringers? Do they capture or employ Jotuns, cover them with beetle-armour and force them to fight?

Why should I want to play them over something else?

My point is that apparently they aren't very distinct or interesting, if they can't be said to *be* something beyond a description of their clothing and employment.

Such things might "make a man" but they don't make a national character.

So, who are they?

Re: Dud nations
 

For an indepth analysis of EA Ulm units, see this thread.

I do not consider EA Ulm weak. It has some problem with its magics, namely low levels but good versatility. It has good units as long as you only use the female units and archers and possibly the iron and steel warriors.

Marverni could conceivably be a good nation to play, but it requires production scales to be able to pump out the good units. Ambibate Noble Warrior is one of the best EA infantry units. If you also have a F9 bless, the boar warriors provide with quite the shock potential early on.

I must say that I have not played very many nations at all, though I have a fair idea of strengths and weaknesses due to my familiarity with the units from making the DB.

I will also note that if some nation does not suit a particular player's play style, chances are that the player will suck with even a strong nation compared to something that does suit him.

Re: Dud nations
 

They /are/ a nation of smiths with super heavy armour. Have you actually ever played as them? No other nation has a selection of national troops like that. No other nation has forgebonus like that. So to answer your question, what does that translate into - it translates into MA Ulm. Plenty of people like their flavour. Maybe there's no accounting for taste. There's more to them than smiths and armour, it's just a general description, like EA Pangaea being 'the woodland halfmen'.

There are a few nations whose themes don't appeal to me in the slightest. To me they seem generic, uninteresting, cliched,... but I accept there are people who like them.

Re: Dud nations
 

EA Ulm has 6 stealth units and 4 non-stealth. And 3 stealth leaders with 1 non-stealth. Heavy on forest and mountain skills w/ defense against cold. That all seems built heavily into the theme. I suspect that discussing its pros and cons while ignoring that is going to miss the point.

If all nations are going to be compared on the basis of army-to-army open warfare then you will be able to seperate nations into great or duds but I dont think the comparison will mean much to the game in general.

Re: Dud nations
 

The description of Ulm as a race, says out of the ashes of Ermor they arose, and they disdain magic, and even priests, choosing to forge an empire on steel.

So they get crappy mages, crappy priests, poor mr, and then they do not even get the best units that rely on steel? Give me a break. And their units are resource hogs. maybe those great forgers of armor could make some lighter armor, just as strong, but less cumbersome so they can have better movement and defense.

maybe since they do not use preists(sermon of courage), they get superior training in steel, are more disciplined, and do not rout easily? But no, they have average morale.

True, they have good knights, but a nation with a few smiting priests make short work of them. Why should arcos get superior infantry to Ulm?

They have far superior priests, priests that heal afflictions no less, they have elephants, they have superior mages, access to broad magic, mind burn early on, and paralyze not far down the road. To top it off their infantry
is just grossly superior to ulm's in every way. they are not crippled with mr 9 either.

lol, and they even put ulms national spell to increase mr down a line it never uses and at 5th level no less. Cut ulm some small slack and stick it in construction(forge, makes sense you would research construction). And it is not like ulm can research well anyway with drain 3. Its own mages suck at research, and any indies you find suffer from drain 3.

And Ulm is not a race that should have to research. They rely on steel remember? They disdain magic and priests. Ok, that is great, do not make them rely on some spell to be viable.

Re: Dud nations
 

When you read 'steel' you clearly think 'trained from birth to be elite fighters'. When I read 'steel' I think they rely on their superior arming technology. Which would be the forgebonus and the availability of super heavy armour.

I'm not claiming that MA Ulm is good, or comparing them with anyone else, I just don't think anything in the descriptions indicates they should be amazingly skilled or brave fighters. What it does indicate to me is that they like to wear a lot of armour, they have more advanced weapons (such as the arbalest etc). And yes, they are resource hogs. That's a big theme of the nation.

Re: Dud nations
 

I think EA Ulm is fine-it's got a lot of character, and I know it's armored barbarians with great smiths but not a lot of magic. Very easy to understand.

I was thinking about Middle-Era Ulm though, and why not have units equipped with the really excellent weapons that gave Romans so much trouble-like the Dacian Falx/Thracian Rhomphaia or the Falcata/Machiara, for instance.

Commanders could be equipped with useful low-power magical weapons-with the most powerful being a warrior weilding a herald's lance and riding a plate-armored elephant.

Re: Dud nations
 

I think MA Ulm is pretty much in its zone (even if the MR lowering got excessive; why are they below-average MR that national spells and drain-scales bring up to average? Shouldn't they be average MR that national spells and drain scales bring up to above average? How does a race of humans all of a sudden become suceptable to magic on a genetic level? Nobody else is.), but there's something that just never made sense to me; it's like there's this small hole in the faction-concept. No 'banner' units or commanders. Not even a hero with that effect. Everybody and their mother gets a unit like that, and in a faction when it fits without being in anyway a stretch, there isn't one.

Re: Dud nations
 

yes EA r'lyeh and EA oceania can kill atlantis, but that doesn't mean that it makes up for their complete lack of good amphibious units. Basically as someone said before you are forced to stick with indies and some summons when you go ashore, and thats not viable in a MP game. No nation are wrecked, and even the water nations can win a mp game. However they are good contestants for the weakest nation in EA, unless the water section of an mp game is huge.

Re: Dud nations
 

If MA Ulm should get a bonus, I'd suggest making the Black Plate armors and helmets instead of Full Helmets and Full Plates of Ulm. Magical armor is immune to armor destruction, which would let the Master Smiths use Armor of Achilles/Destruction without having to worry about hitting their own units, and the Black Steel Helmet doesn't have a defense penalty, giving all better units of Ulm 1 more defense.

MA Ulm has many good abilities;
- Crossbowmen prot 14, 12 hp, 10 att +1 from shortsword and an arbalest for just 10g/24r. They can go toe-to-toe with many other nations' infantry troops.
- Flails and Morning Stars, making them deadly against all shield-bearers. The flails' multiple attacks also lower enemy defence quite fast, enabling the heavy hitters to strike down hard-to-hit foes as long as Ulm has the advantage in numbers.
- Black Knights and Sappers to act as a mapmove 2 army. Sappers are too expensive to be used this way except in emergencies, but if you haven't happened to find anything else, you'll be glad to have them.

Their weaknesses are:
- Very few ways of increasing morale. Pikeneers have morale 11, Guardians morale 14, Black Knights morale 15, and mixing those with your normal units is about all you can do.
- Slow armies: slow to make, slow to move, slow in killing their enemies due to no high att/high dam units
- No easy access to summons that'd make good thugs, and little reason to use commanders other than Black Lords as thugs.
- Heavy armor and the normal encumberance of 3. They'd benefit from having encumberance 2 of the Machakans in addition to their +2 hp and +1 str.


There were few mods back in DomII that boosted Ulm. The Master Smiths have since received that 10% random, but if you think something is still needed I can warm up my old Ulm Upgrade mod. Noblemen with prec 12, Warlords equal to Lord Guardians (and recruitable everywhere), slightly cheaper Lord Guardians... and perhaps the Full Plate of Ulm to Black Steel Full Plate change as well.

Re: Dud nations
 

(MA) Ulm

As Endo correctly points out, the discussion about the "standard" Ulm goes back to the days of Dom 2.
Check out my "Ulm beefed up" mod and thread from 2004.

Interestingly enough, the improved smithes I did in the mod got taken over to vanilla Dom 3 by the devs. Armor got some improvements in general, and the "Full Plate of Ulm" even more so.

Not enough IMHO, though, therefore I'm going to revamp my mod for Dom 3.
Thanks for reminding me of it - stay tuned, shouldn't take too long.

Keep adding suggestions here...

Re: Dud nations
 

Well that's given me some ideas for a balance mod I'm working on based on the CB template.

Re: Dud nations
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif I'm almost finished updating my old Ulm Upgrade mod, so I guess we'll have 3 "make Ulm better" mods floating around soon!

Re: Dud nations
 

I do not believe that units that default to black steel armor are actually immune to destruction - or that the game even keeps track of which default armor is "magic". The description may refer to magic-items-as-armor, which are not removed from inventory. You can get the broken-armor icon anyway, not sure what it actually does to you.

I propose a fourth fix to Ulm. My preference would be to give Ulm national spells that encourage it to use the units it already has.

- effective, low-research, low precision, non-armor-piercing damage spells for the smiths. Improved versions of Magma Bolts, basically. These would be deadly spells if you have tough units, because you need not worry about friendly fire.

- since Ulm despises both magic and organized religion, they should have anti-type spells for magic beings and for sacred units.

- spells to give haste (not quickness!), recuperation and offensive bonuses to large numbers of infantry. Further boosting the protection of your stuff is deeply pointless.

I'm also working on new and powerful national spells for Marverni and ME Agartha, but I'm waiting for the new patch at the moment.

Re: Dud nations
 

I don't agree that it is pointless to raise their protection additionally as there is a big difference between 20 and 25 for instance. Have anyone of you even tried using legions of steel? Also iron will is pretty low level (3) and it is in the same school as gnome lore that your smiths also can cast. After that you obviously have tempering the will which is cheap and bloody excellent for Ulm, a spell that follows the nation between the ages. And don't cast it once but a lot of times as magic resistance negates it on your own troops and you probably have drain 3 when playing MA Ulm because it doesn't affect your smiths research.

And don't forget that pikes ignore shields also so it is actually not so hard to hit knights for example. They also have a morale of 11, which means that they will stay in the fight for a while raising enemies fatigue. So the thing to do is of course to have flail guys, hammerers and battle axes behind them set to hold and attack. A tip is to use the ones with less armor as they have more APs and higher defense whilst the now fatigued enemy have a lot less so they won't hit them so often anyways.

Another thing not to forget is the production bonus Ulm gets in the fortresses - so build a lot of fortresses! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Its troops only cost 10 gold anyways.

Re: Dud nations
 

One further point on 'dud' nations, MP is a pretty ruthless playing environment, if a nation gets percieved by a significant amount of people as weak, then in MP it becomes a easy target.

I think I have seen some signs of this in MP with Marverni and the Ulms being targeted early on and eliminated.

In the next patch I believe Helheim is being weakened slightly, so in future patches shouldn't Marverni/Ulms be strengthened slightly, on the lines of Endoperez's and Dr Praetorius suggestions?

Mods strenghening weak nations are always welcome but will they get used in MP? Also in SP, such mods are not needed as the AI is more fun to play against with a weaker nation, I try to give the AI every chance/advantage I can.

Re: Dud nations
 

You're right in that black steel armors aren't immune to armor destruction. Found out when updating my mod, now posted in the mod forum in the "Dud nation mods" thread.

Broken armor tag means that all armor is prot 0, and that shields are useless. Prot 0 Black Knights are a sad sight. It goes away when the units end turn in a province with unused resources, but I don't know how many resources it takes to fix a piece of armor.

The spell ideas are all nice. Which schools would you put them at? Would the anti-magic being and anti-sacred unit spells be in Thaumaturgy, giving Ulm a reason to research towards Tempering the Will, or would you move that one to some other school?

Re: Dud nations
 

I agree the adding protection to high protection units seems to work very well - same theory as the high def van units having Water blessing.

Meglobob: You don't have to use the mod in SP when you're playing that nation, but it will help the AI out if you're playing against them and /they/ have that nation. I basically only play SP but I'm still very interested in balance.

Re: Dud nations
 

Obviously it requires a certain amount of thought, but here's a first draft. I'm going to wait until the next patch before I do any more actual coding and testing. Let me know what you think.

Construction 3, Sparks. The master smith shatters an earth gem in his mailed fist, sending the fragments hurtling into the enemy.
EF, 100 fatigue. 15 effects + 5 per level of earth magic. 15 points of fire damage (not armor piercing), precision -3. Very long range.

Construction 5, Purified Lance. A lance of purified steel is sent hurtling towards the enemy at tremendous speed, striking unerringly, inflicting massive damage, especially to demons and undead.
EE, 100 fatigue. Pre 100. 50 points of physical holy damage.

Construction 7, Shrapmetal. A rain of shattered metal fragments falls on the entire battlefield.
EEE, 200 fatigue. AoE entire battlefield. 15 points of physical damage.

Thaumaturgy 3, Word of Steel. The magic-draining properties of iron are deadly to beings of the spheres. Words endowed with their power are a weapon against which these unnatural beings have no defense.
EE, 50 fatigue. Does 25 points of untyped damage to a single magical being. 100 Pre. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

Thaumaturgy 4, Bane Metal. Hammers and manacles are used in a sympathetic rite to symbolize the dominance of iron over false Gods and their idols, which are shattered and bound. Holy warriors who see their icons treated such, if theylack the will to resist the magic, will find themselves bound and their bones shattered.
EEEE, 200 fatigue. Strikes all hostile sacred units. Magic resistance negates easily. Cripples and also inflicts false fetters. If I can add side effects in the new patch, this will be two effects so targets can suffer one or both conditions.
Thaumaturgy 6, Iron Rage. (Buff, all friendly units, MR+).
Thaumaturgy 7, Purity of Iron. (Buff, all friendly units, MR+)

I have to decide what the buffs do. Problem - Berserk and Haste are two different effect #s, so I can't combine them unless I can give spells side effects.

Re: Dud nations
 

Cool spells, but shouldn't sparks cost an earth gem?

Re: Dud nations
 

Good point! Yea, those mods would be really useful, thanks for pointing this out, will use them in that context, to make the AI stronger in SP play.

Re: Dud nations
 

Well, I'm not going to comment on Ulm as I haven't really played them in EA or MA, but I am surprised that more people haven't mentioned MA Mictlan. They loose all the best things about being Mictlan (blood, cheap researchers) and gain absolutely nothing. Basically the ONLY thing MA Mictlan has going for it is recruit everywhere Jaguar warriors and good luck with that once your opponents get one of the many great jaguar warrior counters (ever seen blade wind cast on them?) I can't figure out any way to play them competitively.

Now, EA R'yleh I have to strongly disagree is a dud, but you do have to play them quite differently. They have very strong defensive capabilities (in the water) but their real offensive power is the sneak attack. Nobody on land wants to bring the war into R'yleh's waters, and because the water provinces are usually so much bigger they consequently have a very long border that they don't need to worry too much about defending and very good mobility. Aboleths have strong astral and water plus good hp and life draining, that's all you need for a thug capable of teleporting and taking out most PD singlehandedly with no equipment other than possibly an amulet of the fish (body ethereal, personal luck, quicken self, astral shield, breath of winter, attack closest). The trick to EA R'yleh is knowing full well you can't carry on a head to head fight on the land with an evenly matched opponent...so don't. Use your natural water defenses and long border to watch for opportunities to sneak attack, and in MP leverage this to cultivate allies to help you carry the fight on land (ie need help with that war you're in against Pangea?). Don't attack until you can cause enough damage in your initial attack (swarming over your long border and teleporting in aboleths everywhere just when your target committed most of his troops elsewhere) that it cripples your enemies ability to counterattack. This can be amplified by a withering barrage of mind hunts- also best served as a surprise. You've got to think of EA R'yleh like a submarine- surface and fire at a battleship head on and you're gonna lose every time, but if you play to your strengths your opponents won't know you're there until it's too late.

Re: Dud nations
 

I love endperez thoughts, if you can make Wardens(warlords) recruitable everywhere mod, that sounds like a mod that i would play ulm with.

With all due respect, more spells is not something Ulm should need. There ought to be 1 race, where its strength is its army, and that race should be Ulm. They hate magic, they rely on steel, so i say boost their units so they in fact, and not in theory, rely on cold steel.

But the spell idea in the construction line are nice. It is thematic that forge masters would research construction.

Giving them a warden at every castle would help, as they at least would have a decent thug with decent mr. I think there mr needs to be 11, and there morale raised to 12. Remove that ridiculous national spell, and boost their morale.

The Black Knights would be formidable with a decent mr.

I am going to try endoperez' ulm mod! Thanks.

Re: Dud nations
 

At least they still have the cheap priest researchers. In MA with a 100% random magic (FWSN).

Re: Dud nations
 

Oh also MA Argatha has some pretty good stuff going for it. Ubrals have some pretty wicked combos (gift of reason, iron warriors), the sacred statues are insanely tough for early game and can easily carry you through midgame with a good blessing. Plus the powerful earth mages pack a good punch mid game (earth quake, blade wind, or destruction depending on what you're facing). Skull mentors ARE easy because what they do have is dark knowledge, and it only costs 30 death (4 skull mentors) to empower somebody to 2D if you haven't got a random pick. Good research (skull mentors plus lightless lanterns) and several solid non-unique SC chasises can be a strong late game if you play it right. Also, because of their solid summons early, mid, and late game they can go with fairly crappy scales and depend on the summons for the core of their army.

Re: Dud nations
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif And just a while ago I wondered why people didn't know Morningstar had the Flail bonus...

Praetorius:

Sparks is nice, although earth gem to fire damage is a bit odd.

Purified Lance/Shrapmetal are strange because they're very powerful evocation spells put into Construction. Word of Steel seems fine as long as it isn't armor-negating. Bane Metal is just strange. I agree with Xietor in that giving Ulm powerful spells doesn't feel like a proper answer, although I could make an exception with a Word of Steel-type spell.

Earth Power/Boots of Antaeus are a good example of Earth giving reinvigoration. Haste would be another good ability. Bigger versions of Legions of Steel/Strength of Giants would be nice.

Xietor:
Warlords are like Lord Guardians, not like Lord Wardens. 15 hp, 13 att/str, 11 def, morale 16, mag res 9. Protection 22/22 and Standard 10, which Black Lords and Lord Guardians also have in the mod. Basically, they're Black Lords who can be given boots (for flying, reinvigoration or resistance purposes), or when you can't afford the gold or the resources (70 g and about 36 r against 110 g and about 70 r).

Re: Dud nations
 

Well,
"Construction 3, Sparks. The master smith shatters an earth gem in his mailed fist, sending the fragments hurtling into..."

So I thought it should cost an earth gem. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


I am right about the pike aren't I? I think I got it from you somewhere.

Here it is:
"Pikes have base damage of 5, so they aren't that good at piercing heavy armor. Most cavalry units have rather high morale, so repel doesn't keep them from attacking, but as long as the pikeman can hit the knight he deals 1 point of repel damage. IIRC, shield parry doesn't affect repel, so it's usually attack 10+1(pike) against defense of 9 to 11 defense (heavy cavalry) or 11-13 (light/medium cavalry). Pikes can also parry lances and light lances."

Ok, I was kind of right, parry doesn't affect repel.

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...amp;Forum=f187

Re: Dud nations
 

Sparks does cost an earth gem. That's why the fatigue is set to 100.

Earth Magic can go in construction if it wants - why is Legions of Steel in construction instead of alteration or enchantment? Weapons of sharpness, likewise? So, both Purified Lance and Shrapmetal work on constructed materials, so they can go in Construction if they want.

As for Ulm not wanting spells - well, that's fine, but I don't think it'll fix the problem. With a minor improvement in Ulm's military, especially a toughness related improvement, you still do most of your killing with Magma Eruptions.

It's a magic-heavy game. If you want Ulm to make more use of her troops, give her national-troop buffing spells.