Dud units / monsters / summons
 

This thread was inspired by Xietor's complaints about the pale ones, dicussion about 'dud nations', discussion of the CB mod and the changes it makes and a number of other things people have said on here. I really hate the idea of dud units in a game, but in Dom3 it seems there are many. Actually I think quite a few are fixed in the CB mod, but for the moment let's see what we can agree on.

So, which units are duds? They can be summoned, recruitable, indies etc.

Couple of things other people have said on here before, just to get the ball rolling...

- EA Ulmish warriors who have two weapons but bad ambidexterity bonus leaving them wit awful attack.

- Pale One soldiers for MA Agartha have terrible attack and numerous other problems (including old age?) there's a thread about this.

- Spear armed huskarl of Helheim (I think) is never ever worth buying because his nearest equivalents are much better at very little change of cost.

And remember to say /why/ you think they're duds :]

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I have a rather controversial one. I would say the basic Niefel soldier (the guy with the axe, not the jarl) is a dud. Yes, they're extremely tough troops, and yes, they're sacred, and yes, they can be *used*-in very large combats, and to support PD, but I wouldn't say they're very use*ful*-and they're the only Niefel troop you ever get besides the Jarl. What's the point of that? Why not more variety and interest here?

It's, after all, *Niefel*heim. I almost never use them, because they're an expensive dead-end. They have some use in the game, but not nearly as much, for me, as a Niefel Jarl. If there were other factors-like more appropriate (read: "specialized") equipment, for instance, I'd use and enjoy them a lot more.

As it is, I hardly ever use *any* Niefel troops, except for the Niefel Jarl, the Huskarl, and the javelin-thrower, and there's something wrong with that.

I'm planning on modding in a Niefel Jotun that uses a wooley rhinocerous for a mount, and another that uses a flail in combat and does area damage. A third may throw large balls of ice, and a fourth will be better armored, weild a war-hammer, and do extra fortress-damage. Ofcourse, they'll all be very, very expensive, but I don't have a problem with that-I may even try to figure out a spell that replaces a Jotun Jarl on foot with a Jotun Jarl on an ice-drake.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Heartily seconded on EA Ulm. There's something seriously wrong when a nation of supposedly ferocious barbarian warriors is reduced to using armies composed solely of its women to get anywhere, leaving the men home to tend the children and farms. The only exceptions to that are the iron and steel warriors, who use 2-handed weapons.

Increased attack skill and ambidexterity bonuses would take care of this.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Yep, I read about that, tested it and found it to be true. There's very little point in using anything but the women.

I'm very tempted to make a CBMplus version which 'fixes' this, among other things (like bakemono size etc etc). One of the reasons I want to hear about more units people find to be useless.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Another couple of recruits up for discussion.

Marignon - The flagellent. This guy just sucks. Seriously. Starts with a random affliction, often crippled or diseased, crummy stats and chaff status - they're sacred but in this case it's actually a drawback because you can't amass them. Are they /ever/ worth recruiting?

EA Oceania - Amber Guard Triton. Ok the goldcost isn't too bad. I can forgive the fact that they are aquatic. But check out that resource cost and they only get one more protection than the oceanian trooper. The shield isn't too helpful since they aren't going to run into missile fire either. So would you guys use them?

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Another couple of recruits up for discussion.

Marignon - The flagellent. This guy just sucks. Seriously. Starts with a random affliction, often crippled or diseased, crummy stats and chaff status - they're sacred but in this case it's actually a drawback because you can't amass them. Are they /ever/ worth recruiting?

EA Oceania - Amber Guard Triton. Ok the goldcost isn't too bad. I can forgive the fact that they are aquatic. But check out that resource cost and they only get one more protection than the oceanian trooper. The shield isn't too helpful since they aren't going to run into missile fire either. So would you guys use them?

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

The Lord Warden.

It's not that he's especially bad, but he's capital-only and can't compete with Crones or Daughters of Avalon. He's a stealthy leader, but the Mother of Avalon has the same leadership level and decent magic to boot.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Flagellants are exceptional with Fire 9 bless. Flail has two attacks, they get +4 att -> they hit with both attacks and deal the fire damage twice.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Even with fire bless I can't see them being that good to be honest - I mean if you put a heavy enough bless on any sacred it's going to be good, but then you have a whole other cost to consider. Flaggies as a base still have random afflictions, no protection etc and you are still seriously limited in how many you can recruit - that isn't so bad for elite units but flaggies are chaff and you need a lot of them just to get past the swarms of arrows and aoe spells to do damage.

I could be wrong about them though. I'm not an experienced marignon player. I do know I made upgraded flaggies with no random afflictions which were freespawned for a mod nation of mine (Ulm Reborn) and even with F9 bless they weren't winning the game for me,.. I had a LOT of them too, far more than I'd be able to get recruiting them with the holy cap.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I've been playing Marignon for a while and I found Flaggies with a F9 Bless very good despite their afflictions. Maybe they aren't top notch, but they can be recruited anywhere. With proper Dominion you can recruit enough of them to cover front lines, acting both as arrow catchers and breaking the enemy lines if they get close enough to enter in melee.

Now I'm playing with C'Tis and I think that Militias are rather weak. OK, they're dirty cheap at 7 gold and 2 resources, but taking into account that Light Infantries get a shield and a javelin for 3 extra gold and resources...

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Shouldn't you be hiding the Flaggies behind a small screen of some high armor troops and have them flank from the top and the bottom? That seems like a pretty good use of them to me.

Jazzepi

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I don't think a Lord Warden is a terrible choice for a prophet. It kind of fits in with the whole subversion theme for Man too (bards & stealthy priests). So just build one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Jazzepi,

Yes, your army setup is optimal if heavy enemy fire is expected: let the shielded infantry deal with arrows harmlessly whilst the blessed Cavalry and Flaggies wreak havoc on their ranks.

In fact my army setup is more focused on screening the real infantry (say Man At Arms) from enemy's cavalry lances, and also to save some space in both flanks for Crossbowmen and Knights Of The Chalice deployment.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

All that armour will give him nasty spell fatigue, until you can forge something lighter. But I suppose one is OK.

The key to using flagellants is the astral-9 bless. Twist fate effectively doubles the number of hits they can take from one to two. This gives them longer to use their offensive punch, which is decent even without a fire bless.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Somehow it seems like a waste as you rarely need all that extra magic resistance on any sacred Marignon unit.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I usually find you can never have too much magic resistance. Especially in the end game, when a mind boggling amount of magic is flying around.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I don't see that astral 9 is worth it. I mean their offensive power isn't really that good, not worth a level 9 bless to protect anyway. Remember that a good number of them are crippled and have messed up strength etc.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

To me fire and maybe air (for airshield) seems to be the obvious choices for blesses. But maybe death can do some good too as they probably are many and have a lot of attacks that will hit (flails) very often. Afflictions can cripple even the best units, and the best thing is that their owner still has to pay their upkeep. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Here's another one, the EA Atlantis Basalt Guard. Powerful unit, but because it doesn't wear a helmet, it can't get the full use of an earth-bless, it's got ridiculous resource-cost, it's capital only, and doesn't even get a patrol-bonus, despite-in the description-being the "ultimate guards".

Again, like the Niefel footsoldier, neat unit in theory, in practice-not much worth using at all.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Astral-9 is really cheap though.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Yes, cheap as in you are stuck with an immobile rock or statue. Everything has its price.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

HoneyBadger, I'd rather give the Basalt Guards a castle defense bonus instead of patrol bonus.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I agree with most of the things mentioned here, with three exceptions:

1. Flagellants, they are not the best sacreds out there, but for 10 gold, non-capital only, and two attacks, they really can be worthwhile. Admittedly the crossbows kind of overshadow them, but they overshadow almost any human troop.

2. Basalt Guards. They certainly pale to many other sacreds, and are not generally something to build a strategy around, but they are quite viable as a resource sink. There comes a point very quickly where you can't afford to use other troops to use up all your resources, and slowly building an elite corps of these is fairly cheap and useful to have given the vulnerability of all your other troops to arrows if you venture on land.

2. EA Ulm two weapon warriors. It's true, for the most part they suck compared to the women, but compared to human troops on average they are actually fine, if somewhat niche. I suppose a little extra attack skill wouldn't hurt, but with the CB nerf to the women warriors I can see using them in cases where you have low defense and high armor foes.

Now, as far as adding to the dud options list, that seems a rather ambitious task given that I would estimate at least 75% of pretenders/spells/units/etc. apply.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Look at it as a teleport anywhere master enslaver, until then it can mind hunt, cast globals, dispel globals, make astral magic items and if you add 2 earth, summon golems. To just name a few of its more obvious uses...

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Has anyone actually found a good use for patrol bonuses? It seems like castle defense/seige is far more useful.

Or pillaging bonuses, for that matter. I actually think it would be interesting if pillaging was a switch you could flip on and off. I don't see why an army can't pillage as it moves through a province. It could be more effective the longer you stay in one place, but I think it would be more realistic to have a huge army rampaging through the opponent's land pillaging as it goes.

Jazzepi

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I'm at work now, so I can't check, but I believe Basalt Guards already *do* get a castle-defense bonus, Edi.

If I were redoing EA Ulm, I'd add a few male units that started out with melee armor-piercing weapons like Piercers, swords and axes of sharpness, etc. Maybe even have some male units like those sons of the smiths, in EA, with black steel armor, just to make the point that the nation is still a little bit wary of women on the battlefield, and men are still in charge of the business of war.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I checked the game, the Living Pillars do indeed have a castle defense bonus of 2.

Quantum, the most obvious solution to the EA Ulm units would be to either add 2 points of attack on the warriors or 1 point attack and 1 point more ambidexterity. Both options would result in a similar amount of improvement, with slightly different emphasis and the +1/+1 att/adex is probably slightly better than +2 att.

From the EA Ulm analysis thread:

When you plug the new numbers in, it's either attack 2 points raw addition to the final numbers or 1 point less penalty plus 1 point raw addition, meaning that the sword/axe combo warriors benefit slightly more from the combination than the double axe wielders, but overall the numbers stay the same.

The +1/+1 boost would make the EA Ulm warriors a real contender without needing to nerf the maidens, because the twin weapon warriors are all really subpar, with a vengeance. You would still need to make choices in the survivability department due to the defense differences, but now there really is a viable choice between using the women and using the actual warriors. It should not unbalance the game either, because right now the imbalance is in the ridiculously low end attributes of the warriors.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Thanks for checking, Edi. One solution (along with helmets) to Living Pillars is to raise their castle defense bonus. If you want a random That would really help a lot to making them a really decent unit, and worth the price. It would also make their PD more interactive-which isn't a bad thing.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Yes you're right. I just meant that it is nice to have a mobile pretender in the beginning to help with expanding and site searching.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

even if you don't have 'bless 9' attributes- even moderate blessing makes them decent expendible units. low maintenance and can be recruited in any of your castles w/ temples.

if u happen to have 'gift of health' helps w/ your old age mages dying off too... i usually have them run behind the cavalry.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Again that depends tons on the game type. In a quick little MP game then definetly Id rather have defense/seige. In a large map game Id rather have patrol bonus. Particularly if its capital only.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

QM: I don't think it's true that 75% of the stuff in the game is 'dud'. Maybe not for preferred use in highly competative MP, but most things still have their uses or are merely below average. What I'm looking for is units which flat out bite and punish you for using them,.. and make them a bit more usable.

It seems people find the flagellents to be ok, so if I were to change them all I would do is remove the random affliction.

I use the CB mod and I think a lot has been done there to increase variety (some disagree). But there are still dud units which could be made less so. Not looking to even everything out, but if a unit is a dud it might as well not even be in the game and that's no good for anyone.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I agree-most units have *some* use. My deciding factor is usually whether or not the unit is interesting enough that the time I need to find a use for it is worth the trouble of doing so. So a really interesting unit might be worth more time than one that's dull, if both are stats-equal.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Try seeing what happens when a bunch of Vans (blessed if you like) fight a wall of Niefel giant soldiers. Unless the Vans have cold protection somehow, after a couple of turns, the Vans will be frozen into unconsciousness, and then chopped into chum. So will just about anything else that isn't cold-immune.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I said this, but I've since retracted the comment since it turns out I was misremembering his stats.

-Max

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Ah. I didn't check that one myself, you just made a good argument. I personally think spear and pike armed units tend to be rather unpowered since having high weapon length for repel isn't actually very useful.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Sorry, I'm not following. Whether it's a raw 2 points or a raw 1 point plus 1 point of ambi, both double axe and combo warriors have at least a -2 penalty from weapon length. Raising ambidexterity to 2 should have exactly the same effect as another point of basic attack. The double-axe and combo guys would wind up at 10/12 and 9/12, respectively, which is just a flat +2 improvement to both of them.

Am I missing something?

-Max

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Yes. You're confusing weapon inherent penalties with ambidexterity penalties.

Ambidex bonus affects penalty due to weapon length, meaning adex 2 would negate the weapon length penalty for axes (length 1), so the double axe warrior would have only -1 penalty to attack courtesy of the inherent penalty of the axe. If they used double maces, there would be no penalty at all. The sword/axe warrior would have a length penalty of 3-2=1 and would get another 1 poinyt penalty for the axe, so his attack with axe would be at -2 to basic attack and the word attack with -1 to basic attack (with the second attack being effectively 2 points higher due to the def penalty for the first one).

Increasing ambidex bonus is more effective if the weapons being used are long and if there are no inherent attack penalties for the weapon. I'd actually prefer a +2/+1 att/adex bonus, that would have an impact that still would not be too overpowering.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I think I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that the sword/axe guys had some kind of preference for 1 raw + 1 ambi instead of 2 raw, which I couldn't figure out because they yield exactly the same numbers. (It's a flat +2 bonus relative to the existing Ulmish warriors.) Since I agree with all the numbers in your post, you must not have been saying that.

Mountain Warrior (Axe + Sword)
Att 11, Ambi 1. Length penalty = 2, so 8/9 (effectively 8/11).

Mountain Warrior (Axe + Sword, hypothetical raw +2 bonus)
Att 13, Ambi 1. Length penalty = 2, so 10/11 (effectively 10/13).

Mountain Warrior (Axe + Sword, hypothetical raw +1, +1 ambi)
Att 12, Ambi 2. Length penalty = 1, so 10/11 (effectively 10/13).

I think we agree on this--extra ambi is the same as attack bonus unless your weapons are so short that your length penalty is already zero, which for Ulm it's not. Yes?

-Max

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Hrmm, it could be. I need to check up on the ambidexterity mechanics when I get back home, but it certainly looks that way. My mistake.

I think the +1/+1 is a more elegant solution since it does not result in visible attack values that look overinflated compared to other base units in the game. I suppose it's a matter of preference. In any case, the Ulmish units should NOT get more than +1 to ambidexterity (for a total adex of 2) or it will piss on all sort of other thematics (such as assassins having good ambidexterity etc).

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

First of all there are a lot of different strategic ways to use Flaigrents mostly their moral for me, they have two attacks with one weapon, that means no ambidextrous penalty which means their getting 2 attacks at 9, or whatever it is for 10 gold, and if their blessed with fire, say 9, thats like an attack of 13 with fire, each two attacks takes 4 off a creatures defence and if you have but 3 of them blessed up to something with even 20 defence they will take it down within one round.

Second Shields don't only effect missle fire, if an attack beats defence but not the shield parry you add the shield protection to the creatures normal protection, shields are far from useless.


Any scared unit? all the Marignon summonable angelic units are sacred not to mention the knights of the chalice for the MA, if you don't bless them your missing out on a huge part of Marignon.


Their desined for clogging castle gates, with even a little bit fire bless and earth to reduce fatigue, two attacks with high attack, almost impossible to take down underwater with no missile fire.

I also have to dissagree with the Niefel footsoldier, theres alot of strategic ways to use this unit using things such as a 4N bless will make them next to impossible to take down with all that heath, with regeneration their chance of getting alifictions is next to nothing because of all their health.

Simple, for patrolling, if you've got a commander with say 20 patrol bonus you can have say 5-8 of them patrolling in a province where your constantly blood hunting, your still getting money from the province, not using an army to patrol the province so thats another army to fight rather than sitting in the middle of your nation patrolling and if you have a decent grow this will hardly even effect the population of the province.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I'd give 'em +1+1 att/ambi for a total of 12 attack, 2 ambi, or possibly just +1 ambi since in CBM the women have been nerfed a bit (or so I hear).

Actually this is my current thinking for a balance addition to CBM:

Att 2 on blowpipe.

Bakemono to size 1.
Sea Trolls more useful: Claw with 0 0 0 stats rather than fist.
Ambidexterity increase of 1 for ulmish warriors. Possibly +1 attack too.
Remove scout from marignon - they have spy etc.
Abysia's old age problems - remove oldage from 'initiate level' units.
Lower water strike research level so it is useful for water mages underwater early on.
Agarthan MA PD above 20 produces pale ones that are supposed to be rare and suck as PD. This is no good.
EA Rlyeh could do with the Slave Troll unit. As national summon or recruitable.
EA Oceania amber guard need to either be better or have lower rcost.
LA Marignon Flagellents without afflictions.

Obviously I want this list to be longer. Any more units you'd never use?

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

You're ignoring the fact that they're all crippled and diseased - half of them aren't going to do any good at all without a serious bless and a serious bless could make any unit good. I do take the point about two attacks, but I still think they're not worth it unless they have afflictions removed.

I'm not saying shields are useless, just that they're less useful for aquatic chappies. My main gripe with the amber clan guys is that they get 1 more protection on body, head and shield for 14 resources, which makes their Rcost almost double that of the standard oceanian soldier (34 compared to 20). They are better in stats, but that's what your extra gold is paying for - the amber armour is a resource hogging ripoff.


He's not saying don't bless them, he just doesn't think the MR boost is worth it for marignon.



Does anyone make use of pillaging bonus? It seems rare, slight and pretty useless.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Only units that I remember having pillage bonus are the barbarians, barbarian chief and barbarian lord. Might have been one or two other units, but there are very few units that have it.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I never use pillaging on computer players, only ever vs human opponents, with large sneaking armies, you appear in provinces next to their capital or major cities with somthing like a harvester of sorrows and a huge army and decimate their populations, then they can't move armies though there easierly, rec is reduced and income from the province is gone, and you make enough money from the pillaging to replace the army you just sent deep into enemy territory from whiping out 20000 people.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

It's amounts to the same thing, just a matter of degree of disadvantage. If something is only a little worse than your other options (but very similar in function) it might as well be a lot worse.

And that aside, few of the thing mentioned here fall into the extreme 'bite me' catagory. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Things like Wrath of the Sea, Light Cavalry without lances, Amulet of Vengeance, Call Lesser Horror, Bonds of Fire, Dragon Master, Iron Pigs, Serpent Cataphracts, Bell of Cleansing, The Sphinx, Son of the Sun & Co., etc.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Again, it's completely besides the point that they're a powerful unit, as I said. The point is that they're a dud, a dead end. They're fine for a few things, but they're expensive, limited, and pretty much the only game in town. Why waste money on them? If you've got a good bless, recruit Jarls.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Already done in CB.
I think the graphics would look screwy if that were done.
Seems reasonable, I think something similar was done in dom2 CB actually.
I'd rather up the attack than the abidex, seems somehow more thematic.
I suppose, not harming anything though.
IW's stance, which I tend to agree with, is that the old age is part of the theme and other ways should be found to boost them if needed.
I actually use water strike quite a bit as it is, just because it's more or less the only option. The real issue here is not enough direct underwater combat spells. In theory new ones should be able to be modded in.
For most nations, I'd rather not tweak something as invisible as PD, but MA agartha needs all the help it can get.
An interesting idea, though it would make the shambler thrall an even poorer choice.
The problem here isn't that they are too bad, but that oceanian tritons are so much better. I have hard time seeing a thematic solution.
Even if I thought flagellants were underpowered, I would rather make them cheaper than remove such a unique feature. And I don't find them weak at all, they beat sacreds like Red Guard hands down (not on an individual basis obviously).

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Well if it's just about degrees of disadvantage, you might say that you should never use anything that isn't the hands down best unit or nation in the game. But people want to, both for variety and because the use of different units and nations changes depending on the situation you're in. I mean there are times when unit A, though generally worse than unit B, will be a better choice. What I want to 'fix' is unit C, which has a clear purpose (it's got AP weapons, good mapmove, fire resistance or some other ability which fits into rock paper scissors balance) but still sucks. While I'm at it I figure unit D, which is just a worse version of another unit, could do with either being given a new ability or at least made to be roughly average so it doesn't punish the AI which seems to build at random, or the player who wants to use it for flavour's sake.

The stuff you mention there is 'fixed' in the CB mod is it not? I personally think that if a unit is just bad, severely underpowered, it should be improved. Useless units add nothing to the game and are fairly easy to turn into units which provide more variety (gameplay, flavour, graphics) with a little stat tweak.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Not in v1.00 it isn't. There's a mistake in the code - the weapon is typed in as #prec 2 when it needs to be #att 2. Since I'm proposing a mod on top of the CBM mod, I thought I'd fix that little typo.


I'll check, but I think they'll look fine. They're the same size as the vaetti after all (graphically). Maybe even the same as a hoburg.

Might have to make them slightly more expensive, but it just seems daft that the can't fight worth a damn currently.

End result is the same, so I don't mind.

Just a tidying thing. They have zero need of the scout.

I completely agree, but not for the initiate level units. Their description suggests they are young(ish). The nation as a whole would still have oldage problems and I'd only make it so the initiates at least didn't /start/ old. 2-3 years down the line, who knows?

I agree, but in the meantime I think waterstrike could be lower. As someone on the forums said, water mages should be useful underwater out of the box. I suppose I could come up with a couple more attack spells underwater which are weaker and at lower levels. I still think water strike is high up considering how specialised and relatively underwhelming it is.

Makes sense from balance, theme and fun perspective to me.

Depends on the cost of the slave troll. If the shambler thrall is currently a bad choice it could be given a boost or made a bit more unique, too.

Well there's always magic or some elemental resistance. That would play on the fact that they have armour crafted by specialised mages from traditionally magical matter.

Well I'm willing to go with the flow regarding flaggies. People here seem to think they're useful and I'm no expert, so I'm not going to argue that one any further. If the description explained about their afflictions I suppose that would make it less bothersome.

If you agree with me on the whole regarding some things, I'd be happy to just work with you and others at improving the CB mod. The problem is I come at the game from a SP and theme angle, not MP. I still want to improve balance, of course. I'm a CB convert, or I wouldn't be wanting to build on it, see? I just think more can be done without harming the game or watering it down any, by sorting out the many other duds in the game not touched by CB (yet?).