Vanilla Mods to Community Mods-The *CML*
 

There are a *lot* of excellent mods being made right now. People enjoy them, the quality is high, and they fill gaps in the game that are welcome to be filled-at least by most.

Why should they be "second-class citizens", doomed to be scorned in Multi-Player and heckled by purist/elitists as "non-canon"?

The community put their money down and the community put a lot of hard work into making mods, so why shouldn't the community have a means of making the transition between what is an "official" nation, accepted in multi-player, and what is not.
So. A format, a medium, is needed to facilitate the transition from what is *not* accepted by the greater community, to what *is*.
It also adds a bit of prestige to creating mods, which isn't a bad thing, considered the time and effort involved, and the benefits to all.

What the primary purpose of this thread is, is to allow everyone to vote to include a given mod in the prestigious 'Community Mod List'. This is a list of mods that has been voted on and accepted by the Dominions 3 Community at-large as a standard of quality, balancing (for vanilla or within the confines of a given particular "mod universe" incase anyone wants to mod a whole collection of nations and balance them against each other), and finally, relevance for multi-play. The Devs are free to vote, but the 'Community Mod List'-the "CML" is separate from, and has no connection to, Illwinter, Shrapnel Games, or any other affiliate, company, or institution.

The secondary purpose of this thread is to help define what the "Vanilla Standard" is, what "quality" in a mod should represent and aspire to, and finally, to outline some community multi-player "house rules" for a community multi-player game.

Tertiarily, I'm hoping it will help strengthen the game as a whole, as old and new ideas are accepted or rejected as more or less "thematic" or "canon" in the game, and as current Official Dev-Nations are 'held up to the light' of community mods, as it were.

The way the voting will work is thus. If you wish to propose a Mod for OUML status, just post it in the thread. If some else seconds it, it will go on to the vote. To be accepted as CML, it has to have atleast 30 votes, and the permission of the person who created the mod-unless that person is unavailable. If permission isn't denied after 30 days by the creator, the mod becomes CML. It's atleast kinda-sorta canon from that point on, and can not be excluded from any sort of CML multi-player game-hopefully, people will start hosting these-unless the rules of that particular CML multi-player game explicitely deny that particular CML mod.

Anyone can submit a mod for voting, and, ofcourse, anyone can create a mod, but in order to vote, you have to be atleast a "Corporal" in Dominions Forum ranking. Sorry, that's just the way it works. I think it takes somewhere around 50 posts to achieve the rank of "Corporal". It just cuts down on spam-voting and that sort of nefarious business, and assures that the people voting have atleast some idea of the issues at hand.

If it's found out that anyone's engaging in any sort of shady voting business, then steps to prevent them screwing things up for the rest of us will be taken. I'm not sure what those steps will be, but I'm sure I can think of something nasty.

If a mod is voted in, it can still be vetoed from the CML status. This requires 50 negative votes, and each negative vote must come with a good reason to deny the mod. A mod under the same name can then be resubmitted to the CML by the creator of the mod, after 30 days.

Hopefully, this will end up expanding greatly the options and then fun of creating mods and playing mods, especially in multi-player games.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

A better way to go about this is to include mods in certain MP games by agreement.

For game-community wide inclusions, I'll put it this way:

You can't even get people not to throw fits over outright vanilla factions being allowed to play in MP (EA Vanheim and Helheim), how are mods supposed to do better?

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

There's no reason the OUML can't exclude vanilla factions, now is there? That's one of the reasons it exists, to define "house rules". Excluding Van/Hel would definitely be considered a "house rule". Personally, I'd like to see the OUML keep all vanilla factions in, but as of this moment, it's an entity with a life of it's own.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

No, just no.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

No what?

and Yes, you could have as many personal rules for your own personal game as you want-that's not the point at all. The point is to give certain mods which would work fine with the nations that already come with the game, recognition as being balanced, accepted, and of quality.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

If you don't have some kind of consensus about what's a "standard mod" and what isn't, then noone will ever accept those mods into the game as a standard. They'll always remain exceptions and outcasts.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

NO
I think there are many tags that we can put out there as a community. But "Official Mod" is not one of them. I would pick a new name as this one gives the wrong impression.

How about "Play-Tested Mods? or even "Preferred Mods"?

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

That's why it's got the word "unofficial" right there in the title. I would have thought that would be reasonably obvious, despite it being inside little ( ) marks?

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

I guess the name could be changed easily enough, but, it's just a word, you know? It has more than one meaning, I know, but I did take steps to assure that the meaning wasn't ambiguous.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

Currently I don't think mods are exceptions and outcasts. I think the modding community has done a great job of providing people mods to enhance their single player experience and in some instance, the multiplayer aspect of the game.

Nation mods will probably never find a niche in multiplayer because even if it is accepted as being balanced, only one player gets to play as that nation, which makes the game pretty much vanilla for anyone else.

Mods that affect things other than specific nations tend to be more accepted by the multiplayer community because the effects usually apply to everyone. Example would include Worthy Heroes mod, Conceptional Balance or Nova Deus (Although I have never seen this one used in MP).

I like the way modding is right now, and how it is accepted. The only mod I have ever seen proselytized around the forums is the Conceptional Balance mod, and it was not even being pushed by the creator. I think this has left a bad impression on some people and has been the center of a few heated arguments. Creating a list of "officially" accepted mods would have a similar effect on the mods included on the list, souring some people before they even try the mod, or causing discourse and hard feelings for people who did not make the list, possibly even discouraging and pushing modders away.

It's like I said in another thread, the relationship between the player and the mod is a personal one. The player downloads the mod of their own freewill if they are interested in it, and then they play the mod if they like it.

I feel that creating a list like you propose would hurt that relationship.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

How about "Community Mods"?

And-if we can hopefully climb over all the red tape and legaleze of this (non)issue-does anyone have any mods they'd like to submit?

I've got quite a few, but I don't want to be the first to submit any, as it would be impolite and needlessly preferential.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

If you do follow through with this idea, I would suggest limiting it to mods other than Nation mods. I would call the initiative something related to multiplayer, maybe something like "The Community Multiplayer Ruleset".

I think the initiative would benefit the community in that aspect, if the changes are general mods that are normally accepted in MP games like the ones I listed. Then the game host could choose to use the rules or not.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

Foodstamp, I'm not proposing that mods be distinguished between what is a "good" mod and what is a "bad" mod. It's not about that, except maybe in cases where something is obviously a shoddy effort and should be excluded until it's been improved.

This is about getting people to admit that yes, certain mod nations are just as good as the nations the Devs came up with.

It shouldn't hurt any relationships, unless people are being overly sensitive and unrealistic. It doesn't force anyone to change anything they currently do or don't do. It just says that a particular mod has been approved by the community for use in "vanilla-style" games. It gives our creative efforts more weight than they currently have.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

There, maybe that will end the argument.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

I protest against not being able to vote, I don't post alot, only where I want to add my opinion or think someone might need help, or am promoting my own mods, anyway I think you should change it to 50 posts needed to vote, no one on this forum would bother to make 5 different accounts, go around on this forum or other forums on the shrapnel community forums posting 50 times each!

I most people have more of a life than that, anyway back to my point, I want, no demand! that it be changed to 50 or 100 votes! 50 preferably!

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

Well, I demand that you vote too, so-providing you vote atleast once on something-request approved!

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

I'm mainly concerned that this would turn, for lack of a better term, incestuous. How many people actually post here on this forum?

We're kinda vocal, but also rather small. :p

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

I think this is a GREAT initiative that has no visibility.
I have no time to experiment mods but it would be great to include balanced mods in our mp group.
I think is easier wait for Dom V than to wait for 50 votes.
Move it to the other forum and lower the number of votes.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

There you go, I've made some changes.

In order to be more reasonable, I've relaxed the voting requirements to 30 votes, Corporal status or above. If people can't be bothered to post atleast 50 times, then they have no business voting on something like this.

I hope that helps.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

Yeah now the small ones can vote! well... we need somthing to vote on.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

That's your problem, and none of my own.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

I vote not to vote. Sorry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

Getting mods used in MP is easy. Host a game and say "we will be using this mod".

Host calls the shots, and people are free to not join if they don't want the mod nation(s) in the game. I doubt there would be any difficulty in getting the game filled up.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

I like the idea, just don't think it will gather a ton of steam.

Are we offering up mods we think should be included in every MP game, i.e. a change to "vanilla" play on a consistent basis?

If so I propose adding "Worthy Heroes"

If we are offering up mods we think are just well done and should be looked upon favorably, that's different and I think they should go onto some central voting site. For example, if I want to see what's available I would be able to see the top 10 rated mods and have a good idea that they'll be quality.

I love the healing gods mod - gives all pretenders (even AI) recuperation. I think its great for SP, yet would be kind of crud for MP as the recup ability is a powerful deciding factor. (I'd still love to see it, just don't think its really fair http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I like the mytheology mod as well for SP, just haven't installed the newest version yet to see if its balanced. (last version had 1 or 2 small tweaks needed)

I also use the light cavalry and militia mod as I agree the units are pretty weak, and the change is nice. Again, not sure for MP, although I do not think the changes are all that earth-shattering.

I personally dislike a lot about the CB mod, yet I use the scales module consistently. Lots of folks like it, shrug.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

What do you mean by the "light cavalry and militia" mod jutetrea? I haven't heard of that.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

It's just to have people vote on which mods are "standards" and which nations are "well-balanced for vanilla". There's plenty of mods which aren't intended to be balanced for vanilla, but are really excellent efforts, like Amos's trilogy for instance.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

hmm... milita mod makes them sacred, so they suck a bit less and free troops only cost half upkeep. Prevents recruiting unless a temple is built though. Worthwhile tradeoff in my mind.

Light cav i think ups their defense a bit and maybe gives them a light lance instead of a spear...not sure, still don't recruit them much http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I think I attached them, only 2 and 4 kb respectively let me know if it works

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

militia mod

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

I think that any mod that is added should also have a compelling story behind it as to how the nation formed, not something simple like "These tribes decided to join together and form a nation" something that really had some thought put into it, I personally think thats as important as it being balanced.

For instance, my mod out now, Tarent, is fairly well balanced, but it will never be a vanilla mod, it's not meant to be, the story doesn't fit with dominions,it a tribute to another game, so we should watch out for mods like that, I personally don't want any of them being considered vanilla.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

What exactly does "considered vanilla" mean? Balanced against the standard nations? Fitting story-wise into the world of Dominions?

Those are separate issues, though like Juzza, I would not want to see a poorly written or anachronous nation in a MP game with the vanilla nations, no matter how well it was balanced.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

Do any of the mods on this forum qualify? They arguably all have graphics, theme, balance etc of some kind that don't fit with vanilla.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

My mods, the one's linked in my signature, were made with the intention to have them fit into the Dominions world both thematically and balance-wise.

They have not been play-tested in MP so I make no claim whether or not they actually are balanced, but the effort has been made. As for the themes, that's for others to judge.

Re: Vanilla Mods to Official Mods-The *OUML*
 

Personally, I would prefer anachronism to imbalance. Of course, balanced _and_ flavorful towards the normal Dom3 nations would be most appreciated.