60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

This is an open thread to discuss a 60 player MP TCP/IP game I will likely host in the near future. This is NOT a signup thread, but rather a thread to discuss the best selections/options for the game. The game will include ALL the nations that exist in all of the ages (total as of 3.06 is 60). You will need to use a mod to play this game and it will be based on Gandalf’s Single Age mod (but slightly modified – v2). This mod does not change the basic game play.

There are a couple of game settings that are not open for discussion – and are simply my personal preferences. The settings not open for discussion (unless you want to tell me how awesome my preferences are) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif:

• The map we will use is here: http://67.66.187.69/dominions3/perpetualitysmall.jpg
• Speed: 24 hours per host for the first 18 turns moving to 48 hours per host after that. Once the game gets into turn 70+ we will up it to 72.
• Victory Conditions: 650 out of 1000 (~65%) provinces controlled, or the surrendering of all other players (the latter is much more likely).
• Graphs: On
• Hall of Fame: Highest possible
• Magic Research: Difficult or Very Difficult
• Magic Site Density: 40 (default middle age setting).
• No other mods… this is because we can’t be sure they will work properly. If this one goes off well I might try and host a CB + WH modded game of this.
• The only real house rule: Arcane Nexus is BANNED. I already thought this spell was overpowered in larger games… but with 60 players I fear there would simply be a rush to put it up as fast as possible. Casting Arcane Nexus gets you put on AI.

Things I want input on:

• What “age” do we want to set this in? This matters as far as the indys that we fight. I think I can easily update the mod to set the game in another age besides early if desired.
• Do we want Magic Research Difficult or Very Difficult? My desire is to make it so at the very end of the game the biggest players have acquired about 60-75% of the available research points. I’m leaning toward Very Difficult, but I’m not sure of the consequences…
• Nation Selection. I normally do random nation assignments because I like to try new nations and I dislike the standard “first poster gets whatever nation they want” method. However I know random nations wouldn’t appeal to everyone. So state how you think they players should pick/assign nations here. Try to think of something fair but not complicated.
• Patch Level. Do we wait for the next patch? I keep hearing it is coming out soon...

Also, I’m not a modder and I don’t really have the time between hosting/playing games to delve into the wonderful world of modding… but…If there is modder (or two) out there who would like to contribute to this huge game (and future games) there are a few things that would be extremely handy:

• New Nation Flags for some of the duplicate era nations (maybe just change the color on 2 of the 3). This could be a separate mod but it would probably be better to integrate it into the Single Age v2 mod.
• Larger Hall of Fame – it would be great if the mod could include a HoF that is 25 in size!
• More Global Spells – it would be great if the mod could give 10 open Global Spell spots. (if anyone can think of reason that would be very bad mention it here).

Remember this isn’t a sign up thread – just give me your thoughts! If there is something I didn't think of or address here, feel free to bring it up.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

I like EA best for indys.

I would like very difficult research as well, there is a tendency to pass over all the lower level spells, unless your desperate, saving gems for just the high level stuff. Would be fun to use the low level spells for longer. Never played with difficult or very difficult research so no idea as to the long term consequences.

Nation selection, I really think in a mega longterm game like this a player should get a nation they really, really want to play. How about everyone gives a top 5 in order of preference?

Patching causes alot of hassle, especially with new players, also it looks like its going to be a pretty big patch so everyone will be keen to use it. Having the 2 new nations will be fun too. So I say wait for the patch. It will probably take some getting going, a game like this anyway.

Finally, what if the game does not fill up ie... all 60 nations or not taken? Leave them out or have them in as AI?

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

Peronally, I like my bidding system; but with a game like this, we'd need alternates - are the alternates stuck with the bids of whomever they replace? I suppose they'd have to be. Also, just managing the bids for 60 players would be quite a headache.

Very hard research is a real problem for certain positions which are heavily magic dependent - Pythium, Marignon, for example. I think a system of bids would help to alleviate this problem, as well as making all 60 nations viable.

The flags are easy from a modding standpoint, but I'm no good at drawring.

The other two options would require diving into the executable, I believe. For one thing, the window isn't big enough to display more than 5 globals, so you'd have to add a scrollbar to the GUI, which I don't think you can do, at least at present - so even if I code-dive I don't think I can change that.

Finally, if you're going to ban Arcane Nexus - I can add a line to disable it in the many-nations mod. Likewise, if we wanted any other mods - I suggest my blessing hotfix, which many nations (LA Ulm for example) rather need to use some of their sacred units. All it does is allow regular bless to affect undead, and it definitely works I've tested it pretty thoroughly.

I should say, given how powerful Arcane Nexus will be, and given only five slots for globals, people will fight over it, and fiercely, so it may not be needful to disable it.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

I concur on suggested mods and EA, and would also like to try very difficult research.

Otherwise I agree with Meglobob to allow players to select nations, and think first come first served is okay, because many nations have similar versions.

If not all nations are taken, I think it's best to leave out the ones not selected. If only 30 or so want to play, we might consider have each player control two nations instead of one!

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

I agree it would be nice to give people what they want - but even if people gave me a top 5 or top 10 its pretty likely that with 60 players a number of players still wouldn't get the nation on their list.

I wouldn't mind waiting for the next patch if it is going to come out in the next 2 weeks or so. I'm not going to wait a month+ however. Anyone have any rumors on when it is coming? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Probably put them on hardest or second to hardest AI.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

I'd suggest to use a wraparound map, but I know that it might be a problem to get such a large map for so many players...

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

An ambitious plan. I do think you are headed for some trouble tho just in the sheer number of players involved. It is hard enough to get 18 players on the same page (pretenders uploaded, mods correct, etc). The thought of trying to manage 60 is daunting. Additionally, player turnover will be a problem. As DrP says, you'll need alternates. But with a game of this size I wonder if there are enough players in the community to support a full staff and alternates.

Personally, I think you would be better off trying with just two ages first: maybe early vs. late?

BTW, you cannot mod the size of the HoF or the Global Enchants. We asked for this as a game setting in the beta and it was not accepted by the devs.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

I would like very difficult research, because this game will be so big, else everyone will have researched everything too early.

About the selections, i think random assignment is not so good here, as this game once started will likely take ages before it is finished, so everyone should have a nation he likes. Maybe a system, where everyone has to give 5 proposals he would like to play and then he would get a nation out of the proposals. (this would still be work for the host, but id like a system, where you still have a chance to get a 'good' nation, even if you are late to sign up)

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

Yea I have my own bidding system I worked on awhile back that I considered... but really I want the setup to be rather simple. I think this game is too big to be trying out bidding on for the first time.

Maybe just difficult then? Any more opinions on this?

Ahhh well thats a shame - but not that huge of a deal.

I'm not opposed to mods that fix verified known bugs - provided thats all they do. There probably are a number of them.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

Well, while I do think getting 60 might not be possible, all my large MP games fill up in less than 12 hours normally. I'm reasonably confident I can get about 30-40, we'll just have to see if we get more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

I think I've gotten pretty good at managing games, so I'm not concerned about the admin time.

I would require passwords from everyone so we can replace a missing player. I don't normally require alternates because I can usually find replacements for players fairly fast on the forums - worse comes to worse the nation gets put on AI.

I know there are a number of players that dislike including AIs in games (I know I do) but with large a game it's going to happen occasionally.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

The fact is, nations from different eras are not well balanced against eachother, especially at very difficult research.

You could give people larger starting armies, or you could give people big piles of initial money, more than 1 starting province, there are various things you could do but they tend to reward some nations/strategies and punish others (like having an awake SC God.)

I think a bidding system is the only robust solution - everyone is entitled to their own opinion about which nations are over or under-powered, and to vote with their wallet.

Of course, my bidding system isn't well-tested yet. I'm planning to start a bid-based game as soon as the patch comes out.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

Right now I'm leaning to announcing a sign up time(to be a bit more fair to people who don't monitor the forums 24x7) in advance and simply start letting people pick during that time.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

Very hard research sounds good to me.

Dr. P's bidding system sounds interesting, but I think getting this thing organized is already going to be difficult. I second the suggestion to wait for the patch, we can start organizing now.

You probably want to state up front a policy on staling (are you switched out after 3 consecutive stales?, etc). With 60 people, somebody is always going to be staling, people are going to just disappear, etc. Also, you might want to set a time for the game to start if all slots don't get filled "we'll start when we're full or next Sunday, whichever is first"

I don't personally care if Arcane Nexus is banned, but a few of the globals are going to be more powerful than they usually are because of scaling. I'd imagine it wouldn't be too hard to get 10-15 players (or more) to pool gems for a dispel on anything that looks too threatening. My guess is this will be a self correcting thing. The thing with AN is any MP game that you can get it up and keep it up, you've pretty much won already anyway so it just speeds up the cleanup.

I don't think having people play more than one nation is a good idea. That might be fun in another game but we're already doing something quite different here so I'd suggest doing one thing at a time.

Yeah, it is a bit different with such a potentially long term game. It might be better to do a first come first served approach so that people signing up could pick from what's remaining. The down side is we might have trouble filling in the last few nations that few want to play, but the up side is that the people playing will be more satisfied with the nation they have and more likely to stick it out for a longer time.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

I agree, but I'm not really super-concerned with balance this game (or I would have looked into the CB). I also think that with the more players the more self-balancing (to a certain degree) the game gets. The late game is going to be crazy and unpredictable.

I guess I'm saying that I agree bidding would be a fairer way to distribute nations, but I'm more concerned with starting with little or no hassle. I'd be happy to test your bidding system in a future game though...

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

No one is going to know how strong a nation will be in this type of situation, so it will be hard to post meaningful bids, especially with the large number of nations available making it hard to be familiar with all of them.

I think putting too much effort into trying to balance something this large/ambitious the first time through is just going to end in frustration. Obviously any glaring holes should be patched up, but a point-by-point bid system isn't going to work outside of giving people the illusion of having control over what they end up with. People who play in this game are going to have to realize that things WILL be unbalanced, and deal with the problem accordingly. Diplomacy will be vital.

As for research - You're going to be stuck either hamstringing research-reliant nations early on or having everything researched very early, and I don't think there's any way to fix that without altering the geometric series equation (so low level things are still easy to research but high levels get really really hard). I think very difficult research would be the best way to keep the late game interesting though, and to me that's more important than early game (if you get blitzed and killed on turn 10 because you can't research the spells you need you've spent maybe 10 hours on the game, total...by turn 50 you've invested a lot more into the game, and since the turns take 2 hours each I'd want them to hold my attention instead of just turning into a phyrric gem-throwing contest.)

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

What is the research gain difference between:

Normal?
Difficult?
Very Difficult?

I saw a post on it long ago, but I can't find it anymore.

Here is another question - would it be possible to mod a research level like the one Micah mentioned? "(so low level things are still easy to research but high levels get really really hard)". I doubt it is, but I thought I would ask.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

Research costs thread:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...o=&fpart=1

And the progression is not moddable afaik, that would have been a change along the lines of adding global slots which would require tweaking things the devs didn't intend to be tweaked.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

Also - I'll leave the Aracane Nexus choice up to the general consensus of this thread then.

I'm pretty skeptical about it being able to "self-balancing" itself in such such a large game, but if the majority here thinks it will work itself out, Its not a big deal to me.

My concern is that in the late game there will be massive amounts of gems floating around. I think it will be much, much harder to get rid of this once it goes up, and I think that the winner will most likely be the on who puts up AN and makes it stay.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

I already do that with all my games! Though I do cut some slack every so often... something that wouldn't be possible here.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

I think the nexus should be banned. Even throwing it up for one turn with minimum gems(or however many are needed to overpower existing globals) would get so many gems that you could put it up with a huge boost next turn, possibly allowing you to keep it up for a while and continue to reinforce it.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

How about first-come first-served unless bidded thru paypal? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

Casting AN might cause you to be at war with 59 other nations, I would think twice before putting it up. I doubt its a problem.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

I would be for banning AN. Being attack by 59 other nations is not nearly as scary if only 10 know where you are.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

10 nations *might* be enough to kill you, global or not =)

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

You also get gems from 59 other nations, though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

That's why I suggested wraparound: Nobody can cuddle up in his corner, everybody has other players around him everywhere.

Another suggestion I'd make to prevent people from abandoning the game: Maybe make this a team game? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/stupid.gif

And last but not least: 60 nations isn't the limit, you can get 80 nations into a game... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

True enough!
1 nation is often enough to take me out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

Other areas of disscussion:

*New nation flags- A must in my opinion.
*Very difficult research.
*I am against the bidding, way to complex.
I would like to see random nation with three picks. (you are given three random nations and you choose which to play) Unfortunately it will still have to be first come first serve.
*wait for the new patch, for the love of all thats holy, wait

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

Are you volunteering? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

Hardly. I have a basic grasp of modding in Dom2. Never done it in dom 3. Either way graphics are beyond me.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

I got you beat. I can't even spell "mod".

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

Or just DON'T use new flags, but every age's nation is allied with his two other counterpart and they start next to each other on the map... to balance out the early/middle/late strength conflict. Okay, a bit problematic that not every nation is present in every age. Use mods! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

Isn't there already and banners and standard mod that changes each era of each nation? I believe they should all be different enough with that mod. Hard magic research would be good, difficult could seriously hamstring some nations (MA Argatha and MA Yomi (?) come to mind)

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

I agree with bandar, just use Zepath's wonderful flag mod. It makes the flags unique to every era.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

A fellow in the irc channel thought you might run into the cap on how many units and commanders can exist. I think that's a point. The cap is some ridicilous number, but still. Perhaps banning LA ermor and rlyeh would help with that, since they tend to have more units than many other nations combined.

amusing thought:
Turn 30, arco casts wrath of god.
Turn 31, arco's capitol wanishes in a puff of nuclear blasts.

but arcane nexus is still too good.

edit: removed hesitation and bad grammar from last line.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

Turn 32, now that there's space on the enchantment scale, Machaka casts Burden of Time.
Turn 33, Machaka laughs because no-one is alive to dispel it.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

*waiting on Ermor's Utterdark and Niefel's Illwinter*

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

Most of the limits in the game were tweaked based on me doing things that Johan never thoiught that anyone would ever try and do. The maximums on sizes in maps were made smaller, packet transmissions larger, and maximums on things like units and commanders vastly increased.

I ran many test games with a few human players and the rest AIs. One of them is still running.
http://www.dom3minions.com/games/PvK...ia/scores.html

But this is a game no one has done yet so we dont know what will happen. I expect it will be on a linux server in text mode. I recommend that the map be downloaded by everyone instead of having the server send it on the first turn. And I recommend rotating backups on each pre-exec

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

if you decide to use a flagmod, someone should throw together one that is super simple to tell who is who. it could only have black text on white background, and just say "EA Abysia", just the age and nation.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

Arcane Nexus doesnt bother me.

Utterdark should be banned. With 40+ players you would think that it could be dispelled... but if it cant? or people dont orgnaize properly? Then Utterdark player wins without needing to capture any territory.

I vote against a bidding system. Too complicated with this many people. Just do first come first serve and keep the post updated.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

Difficult of very difficult research
Ban Nexus
I kind of like the idea of 3 random picks, choose 1 on a first come/first served basis...or maybe even 5 random picks.
Wait for patch only if within 2-3 weeks (maybe a test run till then?)
No vote on starting age, especially with site % fixed


Questions:
With 9(?) water nations, how many water tiles on the map?

Random start locations or fixed?

At 16.xx provinces per nations this is going to get crowded pretty quickly. Any thoughts on increasing map size?

Any randomness going on? Random units, commanders, provinces, buildings, etc?

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

The flag mod Zepath did is different from age to age. It even has a cheat sheet jpg preview file telling you what age the nation is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

Ahhh, well with a cheat sheet it works great then.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

Yea, I'm worried about this one too... however at least everyone has an immediate need to dispel it - where as arcane nexus doesn't directly hurt anyone.

Also, unlike Arcane Nexus, it isn't directly helped by the number of players. If you think Utterdark should be banned here, wouldn't it be reasonable to ban it in any sized game?

What does everyone else think?

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

I really don't think you should be banning *any* spell (besides that one summon that summons the wrong creature). There's no reason why Utterdark is any more threatening than Arcane Nexus. I believe in the market of ideas, if people find a spell threatening enough, then they should be able to band together to dispel it. If they can't, then they deserve to lose.

Think of the amount of resources that 59 nations could put together versus 1.

Jazzepi

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

Correct me if I'm wrong please:

AN creates a gem imbalance, more players = more gem income = greater chance of popping it back up reinforced. Starting a cycle where eventually its hypothetically impossible to dispel.

Utterdark just hits gold (not gems right?) so even though it pretty much sucks for everyone, over time they should be able to gang the caster.

IMO no ban on utterdark

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

There is a link to the map on the first post. It looks like plenty of water and looks like at least a 1000 province map. If all 60 nations played then that would be 16 provinces each. 60*16=960

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

Nexus would only be a problem because the turn order is bugged, at least for Corruption. Globals aren't supposed to go into effect until after the rituals phase is over, so nexus shouldn't generate income the turn it is cast according to the book, but it will (I believe) in practice, although how much will depend on where in the random casting order it ends up. So if people were routinely spending 600 non-astral gems/turn on rituals it would be a safe cast, although it would be 1200 if you figure in alchemy since you won't get pearls from it (you get half the gems spent, and on average will collect from half of the spells cast the same turn as nexus because of random cast order. 150*2*2) I BELIEVE forging DOES happen before rituals, so the nexus caster won't be collecting from forging on turn 1, just rituals. This seems like it could happen late-game on a 1000 province map, although it is a huge chunk of gems.

I think a better solution would be to up the base cost of it, maybe to 300 pearls so that there's actually some strategy going into the gem economy equation. It'll be hard to make a profit with it if it's that hard to cast. If people can't get their stuff together to dispel it, well, they brought the loss upon themselves then, no?

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

I just tested the flag mod - it seems to work so that fixes that problem.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

You should probably combine the flags and 60-nations into a single mod. I was thinking of doing that myself after the patch came out.

Re: 60 Player MegaGame Discussion Thread
 

Is it as simple and cutting and pasting the contents of the mod into one? <<<< Knows nothing about mods.