Mirror image (and glamour) does not protect units
 

Mirror image (and glamour) does not protect units from missles or magic!

- As of latest patch.
Discuss!

Re: Mirror image (and glamour) does not protect units
 

... from missiles or magic.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Mirror image (and glamour) does not protect units
 

How do you mean? Are you suggesting that the melee protection is buggy and was accidentally removed with missile/magic protection? Or is it more a jab at the fact that you now consider mirror image/glamour underpowered/useless?

Re: Mirror image (and glamour) does not protect units
 

I think he just pasted the change line into subject, and didn't notice that it was trunkated.

Re: Mirror image (and glamour) does not protect units
 

*smile* Didn't consider that possibility.

Regardless, I look forward to hearing from more active players as to how they feel about the shift. I'm without opinion currently, as I've been busy at work and haven't had a chance to boot Dom in over a month. Which fundamentally disturbs me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Mirror image (and glamour) does not protect un
 

Magic I can understand, but missiles seem odd. Though I guess if you assume the archer is just firing at the squad and there are 2 Van and their images in the square the arrow hits, the image will have no effect on whether one of the Van is actually hit. Makes sense. I've talked my self into it.

It would be nice if, in that case it didn't break the glamour.
I assume it does?

My suspicion is it's too much of a nerf, but we'll see.

Re: Mirror image (and glamour) does not protect un
 

It sounds like it is a definite attempt to give nations a response to an early Van rush. Whether or not it works as such still remains to be seen, but I think that it at least shows that IW recognizes the problem and is working on it.

Re: Mirror image (and glamour) does not protect un
 

It means that you are strongly encouraged to purchase cheap militia as screening troops (or serf warriors) and run them like dogs before your main army.

It's a nerf that can be worked around with good tactics.

Retricted svartalfs to the capital was actually more important fix, IMO. Those little guys are *insane*.

Re: Mirror image (and glamour) does not protect un
 

Actually, the change makes sense. Historically, the way archers were used in battle was that they fired in big, arching volleys (hence the term ARCHery) that targeted the mass of enemy troops. They did not aim for an individual target. So once the shaft is released at the target area, it does not seek to hit anything in particular, nor is it very much impressed by fancy illusions meant to distract the eye. A melee duel is different, of course.

Re: Mirror image (and glamour) does not protect un
 

*chuckle* I find it kind of amusing that there are already camps of "too much" and "not enough" -- for the not enough crowd, you don't figure that archer-heavy nations will wreak havoc on Helhirdlings now, esp. with screening troops who're more heavily armored than militias?

Re: Mirror image (and glamour) does not protect un
 

So you mean the glamour nations will have to operate like everyone else now? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

This is a good fix, and makes glamour work the way you would expect.

Badger\'s really nuts over this scale-mail thing.
 

It's definitely a big change. A good change? definitely!

Ideally-concerning the "missles breaking glamour" question: I think it should be range-based. Like, at greater than 30 simulated yards an arrow can hit and do damage but doesn't break the glamour, while at less than 30 simulated yards it does. That way, you can't take away all of Helheim's edge in a battle immediately, just by massing longbows.

I think it's important to leave them an "out" of this nature, just because it encourages a careful strategy when using them or fighting against them, rather than simply punishing them for having been too powerful for too long.

As per the resource cost for light scale-mail: I'd just like to have a few (too many) words on that, a bit off-topic, though it may be.

If you want to increase the resource-cost for light scale-mail, that's fine, I don't have a problem with that, but please, please, please! If you're going to do that, please give scale-mail of comparable quality a significant protection bonus over chainmail. Scale-mail is just better. High quality scale-mail is a LOT better.

The only "expert" who ever thought any differently was, apparently, Gary Gygax, and this is a sad, misguided, pitiful remnant of D&D and before that, Tolkien, and before that, the western world's psychological superiority complex, furthered by the kind of wishful thinkers who wanted to believe chainmail-which they viewed as European, was better than scalemail-which they viewed as Middle-Eastern. It is, indeed, a conspiracy!

Yes, I am very much a scale mail FANATIC.
But, atleast, I'm on the side of the facts.

If you still don't agree about scalemail, consider that a suit of scalemail armour can incorporate chainmail mesh into the design-for added flexibility and increased protection over vulnerable spots-and still be scalemail armour.

If you're still not convinced...well...you wouldn't want me to come to your house and pass out flyers, now, would you?

Re: Badger\'s really nuts over this scale-mail thing.
 

Badger: Could you provide some _reasons_ as to why it's better? I don't disagree with you, but your post gives no reason as to why it's better.

Re: Badger\'s really nuts over this scale-mail thin
 

I can see where this is going... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Badger\'s really nuts over this scale-mail thin
 

Straight outta the ole PHB.

Scale Mail +4 armor +3 max dex -4 armor check penalty

Chain Mail +5 armor +2 max dex -5 armor check penalty

So there you have it, scale mail is lighter and better for quick, nimble people. Chain mail is heavier and better for no so quick people.

Re: Badger\'s really nuts over this scale-mail thin
 

Don't chain me to chain when I'm scaled for scale. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Badger\'s really nuts over this scale-mail thin
 

Scale mail is better because when well made, it provides equal protection for less weight than chain mail and actually better protection against bludgeoning weapons. Chain mail can actually exacerbate bludgeoning injuries with the links driven into flesh and worsening the damage.

Secondly, scale mail provides far better weight distribution, meaning it is less cumbersome for the same weight and easier to move in. Some stat adjustment would indeed be in order.

It is also a historical fact that plate armors were less cumbersome than chain mail, since they also provide the same better weight distribution and are no halfway as cumbersome as most role playing game systems, especially D&D, would lead you to believe. Unless of course we're talking about tournament plate, which is a chapter in and of itself, far heavier and primarily intended to prevent accidental fatalities. It was never used on the battlefield due to the incredible weight.

Re: Badger\'s really nuts over this scale-mail thin
 

The PHB is wrong. Very, very wrong-deceitfully wrong-which is why I mentioned Gary Gygax. He's one of the two original inventors of Dungeons & Dragons. Here are some of the reasons, from another post I wrote:

"I think it's hilarious how scale mail is so often interpreted as having been somehow inferior to chainmail. It wasn't-infact it was a good deal better, since you've got overlapping *plates* of metal protecting your vitals, instead of a fine metal mesh.

Chain was cheaper to produce and repair-especially poor quality chain, but the only type that was-maybe, arguably- as good as scalemail, protection-wise, was high quality double-chain, which put two layers of chainmail on you, which ofcourse was nice and heavy.

And in any case, scalemail of comparable quality would have distributed it's weight across the body more comfortably, and it simply was easier to create lighter versions of scalemail than it was chainmail, because the quality of steel could be regularly higher in a plate than a wire, in a midieval forge. The only real advantage a suit of chain armor has over scale is a slight increase to flexibility, but their are ways around this, and the factor would still be small."

Here's an experiment you can try at home: Take a piece of modern, high-quality stainless steel wire. Bend it into a bunch of rough circles-as many as you feel like making-and hook the circles together. Stab at it repeatedly with a steak-knife. Now, do the same with a pile of like 10 dollars worth of U.S. nickels all piled together. See the difference? I bet your wife will when she notices what you've done to the coffee-table.

(Disclaimer: No, this is NOT a good idea, and I don't recommend you try it at home. Infact, don't. I'm just saying it's possible to try, but I won't be responsible for any injuries to you, others, antique furniture, and so forth, so don't sue me, I don't have any money, or any possessions, I don't have a real name, and I don't live anywhere.)

To continue,

Very simply: chain has gaps. It's one layer of interconnected wires with air in the middle. Scale doesn't have gaps, it's got overlapping plates. Layers of them. Those plates are also hand-forged. You can't really forge a wire as well as you can a plate, because a wire has quite a bit less surface area. It just doesn't work as well-atleast not by putting in the same amount of time in a smithy.

Scale is heavier than chain. It's more flexible than a breastplate-and quite probably offers better protection against certain impacts-like maces and clubs-because it's got lots of moving parts, and it can be used to cover more of the body than a single large plate can-because the scales are small, but it is somewhat less flexible than chainmail.

It's definitely-hands down, every single time-better protection.

Re: Badger\'s really nuts over this scale-mail thin
 

Edi, you're right, by the way.

Those chain links made for nice impact-shrapnel when you get hit with a spiked ball-and-chain or a crossbow bolt. And we're talking the days before modern battlefield medicine.

The problem isn't completely insurmountable though-a lot of chainmaille armour was backed with leather, which would catch most or all of the little links before they could puncture your liver or an artery, but unfortunately, that does cut down on flexibility-again, not the same with scale.

Chain's also relatively harder to clean and keep rust-free than scale.

Re: Mirror image (and glamour) does not protect un
 

Roleplaying-wise, I am on the same side. A spell should "know" where it has to strike and shouldn't be fooled by magical illusions if set out to hit a target. Mundane archers with bows, however, should be fooled over long distances just like melee fighters over short distances.

Balance-wise, this gives a very strong counter to the "overpowered" glamor, though, together with the added resources that those units will require. I hope they didn't make them even more gold-expensive aswell, though?

Re: Mirror image (and glamour) does not protect un
 

I think it makse sense for both missiles and magic, and therefore I'm happy with it. Verisimilitude is at least as important as game balance, because game balance can be tweaked by adjusting costs. A good change.

It's certainly not crippling to Helheim. Helhirdlings have shields and good protection, and have access to spells like Legions of Steel that boost that protection further. This change will roughly double the amount of glamour that a given archer volley dispels, but Legions of Steel should roughly halve it again. (It's not as effective against longbows, but those are pretty rare EA.)

The change to Svartalfs is much more important IMO, because it limits Helheim's access to army buffs (Legions of Steel and Strength of Giants, Weapons of Sharpness) AND it slows down their research. Best recruitable-anywhere researcher is now the Vanjarl/Helkarl at 3/turn for an initial 160 gold, instead of the Svartalf at 7/turn for an initial 180 gold. The difference is fairly dramatic, and encourages taking positive Magic scales. (IIRC after ten turns of researching they'll gain 1 star and go up to 4/turn and 8/turn respectively, but it's still dramatic. Because the Varjarl is sacred, maintenance costs don't really suffer, but purchases cost more and you also need twice as many forts for maximum research.) This is offset by Helheim's death magic (helped along by the new site searching spell fix) which lets them get skull mentors, but in a long game Helheim now has real incentive to spend points on something besides a huge bless.

I haven't yet installed the patch, but I would expect the change to Sloth + increased resource cost for lightweight scale mail make Sloth-3 less attractive to Helheim, likewise giving Helheim less free points to throw into a bless.

In my SP games I think I'll mod Helheim back to Svartalfheim (220 gcost recruitable-anywhere Svartalfs) but leave the other changes intact.

-Max

Re: Mirror image (and glamour) does not protect un
 

Yes, limiting the Svartalfs to the capital only was harsh. Although others argued that it was necessary, too.

Re: Mirror image (and glamour) does not protect un
 

It's good that glam got nerfed, although I'm not sure if doing it by using archery was the best plan, since archers are already one of the dominant strategies. I think making the images dissapear when they're hit might have been a more interesting solution.

Also, while Helheim certainly needed some nerfing I'm not sure if glamour weakening + the double resource hit from sloth/scale mail + (the big one) cap-only svartalfs all at the same time might not be going a bit too far. The Svartalf change especially pretty much cements them as a face-hugger nation, since their research potential just got cut in half. I know EA Vanheim has the same problem, but indy-based research does not a good nation make. 160 gold for a 3RP researcher is pretty suck-tastic. Maybe the intent was to force a triple magic scale to weaken the bless? I don't know, maybe having Hel/Van run around with a legion of tribal shaman for research is a good idea from a balance standpoint (I'm doing it as Abysia), but it seems a bit off to me.

Re: Mirror image (and glamour) does not protect un
 

Yeah, it probably was necessary. Thematically, it's supposed to be a nation of Vanir, not a nation of little black dwarves with Vanir slave-warriors to do the dirty work. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

-Max

P.S. Also keep in mind that those 160 gp researchers can each forge an owl quill for 3 air gems (once the Svartalfs start passing around the Dwarven hammers) as well having access as skull mentors and lightless lanterns forged by Svartalfs. The actual effect might be that Helheim becomes reliant on gem income for research, which is not necessarily all that bad a thing, but it does take some time to kick-start (time which the face-hugging can purchase).

Re: Mirror image (and glamour) does not protect un
 

Nice Max, as I said, it's going to change from a nation of dwarves to one of totemic shaman now. They're 50 gold cheaper as researchers than the Helkarls and you can pump em out without the 800 gold investment for a fort.

I guess it remains to be seen if the change will encourage people to play Helheim differently or if it will just shove them further down the double-bless path, hurting their income scales even more. I haven't seen how severe the resource hit is yet, so it's hard to say...forcing both magic and production scales on them might do away with double blessings, but just magic 3 is possible with tolerable scales. Anyone have the new Helhirding resource costs handy?

Re: Mirror image (and glamour) does not protect un
 

Gold cost for the Helheim units hasn't changed, as far as I could see.

It's funny how earlier people were complaining about Helheim being too strong and now that it got knocked down to size, there are doubts. The way I see it, now you actually have to make CHOICES as to what you're going to do and have a long term impact from it instead of having it all.

It used to be that you just took screwed up scales, hit a double bless and TRRRRRRRRAAAAMMPLLLEEEEEEE! Not anymore. You need more of the very good units to get the same impact and if you go the maximum bless route, you will suffer in other areas where you did not before. The thing is that you can still recruit a Svartalf every turn that you do not recruit a Hangadrott and you can use the Helkarls and Vanjarls as commanders of the armies.

Helheim nerf
 

It might be a little bit extreme, once you consider all three changes that were made. Not sure yet, ofcourse.

I've got a solution, though, to the svartalfr-the typical one for the badger-how about creating a few more svartalfr units? Certainly they should be working for Vanir, but why not some more support units? maybe a unit that throws armor-piercing francescas (axes ala the Francs) and maybe a low-level researcher-like 1 death, 1 earth, that aren't capital only.

Maybe another combat type that can transform into a giant badger http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I've got some more ideas along these lines that I'll post later. Right now, I've got an appointment to catch.

Before I go, though, Vanir were famous for being shape-shifters, so they should have access to *something* along these lines.

Re: Helheim nerf
 

Like, an ability to make themselves look like anything from a peasant to a peacock and walk unnoticed into enemy castles? Yeah, that'd be awesome! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Mirror image (and glamour) does not protect un
 

Yes, but they're not the awesome recruitable-anywhere battlemages that Svartalfs are. It's easier to view shaman as vassal researchers, since they're 1.) native to conquered provinces, 2.) sitting at home researching instead of leading armies into battle, 3.) relatively scarce. (Though not if you were counting ALL indy mages when you said "shamans.") Plus, they'll be wearing Owl Quills and Skull Mentors that they received from their gods (who were actually Hangadrotts under a glamour illusion), and that will do most of the real research.

Also, because indys aren't usually good battlemages, Vanjarls will be recruited instead of the superior Svartalfs, which helps keep the Vanir flavor.

-Max

Re: Mirror image (and glamour) does not protect units
 

I think overlapping scale mail is not necessarily what is meant by Dominions' Scale Mail (or - ick! - D&D). Maybe they just mean cloth or leather with some scales on it, not overlapping, which would (depending on how much space was between the scales, and how thick they were) likely be less protective than good chain mail against some kinds of attacks. Note that Dominions (like - yetch! - D&D) also has an armor type unhistorically called "Plate Mail" which is not the same as Plate, and maybe that is more like overlapping scale mail?

However, if Scale Mail does mean overlapping metal scales, in general I'd agree that it would tend to offer more protection than typical chainmail.

And, back on topic, I think the Light Weight Scale Mail referred to here is actually the same type you can forge as a magic item using Air gems... not mundane metal armor. And (as a semi-relevant aside) for cavalry like Vans, encumbrance isn't even counted...