Umbrals & Agartha Balance (v3.08)
 

Umbrals are very inexpensive and very powerful... now they are even more powerful. During singleplayer games these fellas are rarely summoned by the AI yet frequently summoned by human players.

Based on how powerful Umbrals are on the battlefield their gem cost should be at least 8 death gems each. They are one of the best units for casting gift of reason.

Maybe the developers made Umbrals even more powerful to give themselves a strong advantage during singleplayer games?

<font color="#5bebe5">Post title changed pending split to separate thread</font>

Re: Update To Version 3.08 Of Dominions 3 Today!
 

NT Jedi, the question is, are Umbrals enough to make Agartha unbalanced? And I'm not talking about SP games here.

Re: Update To Version 3.08 Of Dominions 3 Today!
 

Even if they don't overpower Agartha, you could argue they make them unbalanced because Umbrals are that much better than everything else Agartha does. No balance within the nation,...?

Re: Update To Version 3.08 Of Dominions 3 Today!
 

That can be argued, but it is something that should be discussed in more detail. It is a matter of opinion, not directly a bug, so as far as I'm concerned, it is a nonissue at the moment.

Re: Update To Version 3.08 Of Dominions 3 Today!
 

In my experience of MP and I play alot of MP, Umbrals do not make the nation unbalanced. Indeed EA &amp; MA Agartha seem to struggle in MP. I believe this to be because the nation takes a long time to get going and so suffers early on.

LA Agartha is a nation who can more than hold its own.

They should definately not cost 8D gems. Perhaps a increase of 1 or 2 Deaths gems but no more.

Re: Update To Version 3.08 Of Dominions 3 Today!
 

We should move the balance discussion to a different thread.

Re: Update To Version 3.08 Of Dominions 3 Today!
 

I agree. *mutters powerful incantation*

There, that should do nicely... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Split from the Patch 3.08 sticky thread

Re: Update To Version 3.08 Of Dominions 3 Today!
 

That's exactly the issue. I don't think Agatha for the most part is unbalanced, infact apart from LE they are rather weak. But Umbrals are simply tower above any other Agarthan national summon, and indeed almost any other summon in general. I don't think simply bumping up the gem cost is the best idea, rather they should be much higher research than the other summons to give them a real separate niche.

Re: Umbrals & Agartha Balance (v3.08)
 

Maybe so, but Gift of Reason will dominate the cost. Is a GoR'ed Umbral that much superior to a Black Servant? It's several times more expensive.

I venture no opinion on whether normal Umbrals are underpriced. Not enough experience with 'em, although this thread is inspiring me to try them out.

-Max

Re: Umbrals & Agartha Balance (v3.08)
 

The umbral is far superior to a black sevant.

Umbral:
68 Health
22 Strength
12 Attack
12 Defence
15 Magic Resistance
20 Morale
14/3 Movement
40 Normal Leadership
Amphibious

Black Servant:
18 Health
13 Strength
11 Attack
11 Defence
10 Magic Resistance
17 Morale
12/3 Movement
No Leadership

Both are undead(umbrals MR alone makes it superior due to this), both have 100% cold and poison resisance, both have stealth+0 and are ethereal.

So yes, imho Umbrals are that much superior to black servants.

Re: Umbrals & Agartha Balance (v3.08)
 

For their cost, the research required to summon them, and the single-nation limitation, they'd better be superior to black servants! Umbrals are nice, no doubt, but I've never seen them make or break a game. Keep in mind that you only get one per casting, so to amass a horde you need a lot of mage time (and at least in the early age you either need expensive mages or 4x that many cheap mages). While they're powerful, and a great value if you just look at gem cost, I don't think they remotely overpower the nation. I don't even think they dramatically out-cool other things Agartha can do - for the same gem cost, I can get five magma children, which aren't too shabby on their own, or a big earth elemental that can trample all over unfriendly chaff-mobs. The only cheap EA Agarthan mages that don't have a useful summon, actually, are the WE guys. I guess they can research or something.
If you restrict your attention to things you can summon with death gems, even, I don't think Umbrals are that obvious a choice. Say you've got five Oracles of the Dead and a bunch of death gems. You could summon a pile of Longdead Horsemen and with the rest of the oracles do a bunch of research or forge some things or preach a lot or lead some armies, or else for the same gem cost summon five Umbrals and do nothing else. It's not clear to me that the second choice is always or even usually better.

Re: Umbrals & Agartha Balance (v3.08)
 

Okay, I buy that. A GoR'ed Umbral looks slightly weaker than a Wraith Lord (a bit higher ST, stealthy, life drain attack vs. Soul Vortex casting, Wraith Lord has 22 Prot without needing forged armor, Wraith Lord is immortal) but is available at a lower research level (and doesn't need Alt-6 to cast Soul Vortex). Increasing the death gem cost for Umbrals won't affect this one way or the other, because the nature gem cost dominates.

Still, I think if I was Gift-of-Reasoning undead creatures I'd rather have a Tartarian. Umbrals look more like something I'd throw Marble Warriors on and use as footsoldiers, unless I really wanted a stealthy commander. Disclaimer: I'm not an MP player so I may be missing some tricks.

-Max

Re: Umbrals & Agartha Balance (v3.08)
 

While Oracles will generally have something better to do with their time, they're capital-only. 25% of Earth Readers will be E1D1 and can summon umbrals, which means you can set up an umbral factory without interrupting your Oracles. I don't know if that affects your argument.

-Max

Re: Umbrals & Agartha Balance (v3.08)
 

Oracles are the only way (except perhaps summoning spectres via pretender-made booster items) to get umbrals in MA...

so EA balance is more interesting. Cost 2 or 8 is meaningless when discussing Gift of reason, and presumably items too.

Re: Umbrals & Agartha Balance (v3.08)
 

I probably wouldnt GoR them(well maybe in single player) but i thought i should point out how superior they are to the black servants.

Re: Umbrals & Agartha Balance (v3.08)
 

GoR'd Umbrals can, with some reasonably easy to forge equipment, become pretty decent low-cost SCs. I'm sure there are better chassis for the end-game, but probably not many that can compete in terms of gem cost and low research levels required.

Even so, I really don't think they qualify as overpowered, Particularly in the context of the nation that can summon them. They are definately GOOD. They didn't NEED amphibious, though thematically, it makes sense... (why would the ghosts of ancient pale ones suddenly forget how to breathe water?)

As mentioned by previous posters, they are not all that easy to mass, and are not a rush threat. By the time an agarthan player is able to produce them in any quantity, others should be able to come up with an answer.

Additionally, I always find death gems in very short supply in EA and MA. Skull Staves and Skull mentors eat a LOT of gems. Mages are expensive (even the "cheap" ones), and with agarthas "quirky" national troops, it can be difficult to expand quickly.

My feeling is, that if an agartha player has gotten to the point where he can manage to produce Umbrals in any significant quantity, then gosh durn it he DESERVES those yummy hunks of etherial beefcake.

I don't have a lot of MP experience, so there may well be ways to exploit umbrals such that there is no reasonable counter, but I've not stumbled on it yet, and not for lack of trying.

Re: Umbrals & Agartha Balance (v3.08)
 

On reflection and having read other peoples posts with my experience of MP play I agree 100% with the above points.

Leave umbrals exactly as they are. Only Agartha gets them and there are no signs whatsoever of Agartha being unbalanced. I agree with Edi when he said this is a non-issue.

It might be different if the spell was available to every nation.

If its not broke, don't fix it!

Re: Umbrals & Agartha Balance (v3.08)
 

Early and Middle Agarthas, at least. Ktonian Necromancers alone make LA Agartha a pretty good nation, and they have cheaper Earth/Death mages as well.

Re: Umbrals & Agartha Balance (v3.08)
 

My SP EA Agartha experience had been literally this, every single time:

Stay alive long enough to summon armies of Earth Elementals, Magma Children, and Umbrals. Use conventional troops as placeholders, with heavy Oracle support to make sure they don't automatically lose every fight they get in, regardless the odds.

Frankly the EA Agarthan national army stinks. It can't deal damage, it routs easy, and anything other than pure Seal Gaurdian forces with a heavy fire bless to jack up their attack skill loses fights to independants at even odds or better. Their 'national' force needs heavy evocation and conjuration support as a matter of course, which is why I'm pretty damn sure the designers knew exactly what they were doing when they gave them national spells that let them summon permament earth elementals for two earth gems, five flame-striking fire-creatures for two fire gems, and yes, umbrals for two death gems.

Story-wise, this fits. Agartha hasn't a chance unless they strip Seal Gaurdians from their ancient task and field them against their enemies, and goes down to the halls of the Seal and coax out as many Umbrals as they possibly can and unleash them on the world. It's just so easy and tempting. So that's probably what they did. And then they suffered the consequences.

(And I'd really like to hear the story behind the Seal)

Re: Umbrals & Agartha Balance (v3.08)
 

In EA, There are ways to make Ancient Ones useful enough to center your strategy on, with a LOT of bless and high dominion.

Oracles are H3 and Ancient Ones recruitable everywhere, so you can field large armies of triple-blessed sacreds, with one-round full-field blessing. They are also need not eat so you can take that army anywere without worrying about supply. Start with N8 for regen(not 10 -- sacred mages+berzerk==not pretty), and get Gift of Health up as soon and as long as you can. Add other bless paths to suit.

Avoid COLD. Nothing ruins my EA Agartha day like trying to fight in the snow. It took me quite a while to figure out why sometime my giant triple-blessed army would just get slaughtered by militia or whatever -- then i realized that COLD HURTS. I run heat3 religiously in the EA, just to try and keep as much of the world warm as possible (helps with points for bless as well) Large armies of Umbrals are probably Required in MP to have any chance at all against human-controlled cold nations. It is FAR easier to Cool a key province than warm it up. Remember, the Triple-Bless just makes Ancient Ones VIABLE... not unstoppable.

Anyhoo, IF you can pull off all of the above, you just might be in position to abuse those rotten overpowered Umbrals!

Being able to take umbrals underwater DOES help Agartha compete underwater, something i have not yet fully explored the signifigance of.

Re: Update To Version 3.08 Of Dominions 3 Today!
 

In SP games the Umbrals are unbalanced mainly because the human player knows to mass summon these units whereas the AI does not mass summon these units.
From my MP experience I would say the Umbrals provide to great of an advantage now being amphibian as well. When playing Agartha and needing to summon units they are now the overwhelming obvious choice. These undead units are the most powerful and least expensive undead units based on a gem per gem and spell level basis. Their strength and high life allow their default weapon to be very powerful, their high life and good magic resistance makes banishment very difficult, their statistics and being stealthy and amphibious makes them very nasty on land and in the sea whether its a direct assault or stealthy backstab. The unit is not only powerful but an almost perfect do_everything package.

What I enjoy about Dominions is how a player has so many different strategy options, yet with these Umbrals being so powerful there's less strategy for Argatha as a whole whether its singleplayer or multiplayer.

Re: Umbrals & Agartha Balance (v3.08)
 

I've had good successes with EA (SP &amp; MP) and MA Agartha (SP) without using very many Umbrals. A wall of Rhuax Pact Magma Children can be devastating, of course - the tricky part is keeping your other troops from getting incinerated. Enough trogs en masse can also ruin armies. The low fighting skills from being one-eyed is perhaps the biggest disadvantage, but it's not by any means unsurmountable. Giving magic items which don't even require hitting to the giants, can give you good thugs without needing any blessing. High hitpoints, ok armor plus Legions of Steel is of course quite tough early on, as well. As I've mentioned on other threads, Agartha also gains a great deal on overall balance if it starts out near an independent ocean.

Re: Umbrals & Agartha Balance (v3.08)
 

And don't forget about darkness. Agarthians are the only non-undead unit with 100% darkvision. Probably the reason they were given lower attack and defense is because they would be too overpwoering because of this othewise.

What their needs to be to make Agartha more balanced is more cave provinces.

About the Umbrals, I don't know. Haven't run into those guys yet.

Re: Umbrals & Agartha Balance (v3.08)
 

And *working* cave provinces. I only just discovered that cave provinces aren't actually dark. Fortunately, darkness does work in cave cities, and presumably in cave forts.

(Note that demons have 100% darkvision and are not undead, although many spells/items affect both undead and demons. So Yomi works quite well in cave provinces too, or would if they worked, although Yomi can't build cave forts.)

-Max