Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.1
 

The readmes are unfortunately still mostly for 1.00, but the much requested CB summary file is up to date to 1.1.

An approximate change log from 1.1:

*Fixed some missing national units bugs (flamen and agarthan infantry).

*Finally fixed blowpipe precision bug.

*Seduction ability more likely to succeed.

*Several pretenders now auto summon troops: Lord of the Sky, Lord of the Gates, Celestial General, Lord of War.

*Carrion Woods much easier to cast.

*Polypal mothers can summon gibodai.

*Fairy trod cheaper.

*T'ien Ch'i MA ceremonial masters improved randoms.

*MA Ulm's master smiths higher chance of 3e random.

*Increased price for cheap booster items removed.

*Reduction to order scale income removed.

*Growth gets bonus to direct income instead of pop growth.

*Various redundancies with the 3.08 patch removed.

*New nations updated to CB pricing for light infantry and national troop commanders.

*Yazatas take less research and gems to summon.

*Wild hunt from 30 to 40 gems.

EDIT: Attachments seem to be down, for now you can get the mod here .

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Mod split into sections. EDIT: For now, get it from here .

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

I get this error when trying to d/l...

Not Found
The requested URL /threads/uploads/519284-CB_Complete_1.1.zip was not found on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Attachments seem to be not working right now, I edited in links to temporary hosting in my posts in the meantime.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Attachments have been screwy for a while now, randomly giving errors resulting in nonfunctional links. As far as I understand it, the admin staff are on it.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Great work! I'll try it.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

works very well. I currently try it together with the epic hero mod.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

This link has now expired.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Ok, reposted, should work again now.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

I have mirrored it here: http://www.mediafire.com/?6yptsysfxzq
This link shouldn't expire.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Couple of things - firstly Ich's link seems to be the only working one in this thread, but it is only for the mod split into sections. I would like the CBM complete file - the one all in one .dm rather than than split into sections.

Secondly, the ID numbers listed in the readme don't seem to be accurate.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Attached is the CBcomplete file, repackaged as I only have it unpacked in my game directory.

qm warned in the top post that the readme is still from the 1.0 version.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Huh,.. there are some differences between this one and the sectional ones I believe.

Well here's a comparison of the ID number usage - I also found a couple of ID conflicts.

CBM complete 1.0

----Weapon slots used: 659, 708-10, 751-5, 768, 769
----Armour slots used: 252-264
----Monster slots used: 2851, 2877, 2888, 2890-2892
----Site slots used: 890



Whereas this is what I've found in 1.1

MONSTERS -- 2851, 2877-81, 2888, 2890-2 (added 2878-81)
WEAPONS -- 659, 708-710, 751-5, 768, 769 (same as before, but with one conflict on 754)
ARMOUR -- 252-264 (same as before, but with conflict on 264)
NO SITES (site 890 no longer in .dm file)

CONFLICT between heavy ashigaru armor and gold plate armor ID 264
CONFLICT between divine lightning and hell hooves weapon ID 754



#newmonster 2851
#descr "Ordinary Commander on horseback."

#newmonster 2877
#name "Raven Guard Captain"

#newmonster 2878
#name "Soldier of the West"

#newmonster 2879
#name "Soldier of the West"

#newmonster 2880
#name "Soldier of the East"

#newmonster 2881
#name "Soldier of the East"

#newmonster 2888
#name "Chief"
#descr "Vaetti chief"

#newmonster 2890
#descr "Scout."

#newmonster 2891
#descr "Shambler."

#newmonster 2892
#descr "Vanara"



#newweapon 659
#name "Fever Curse"

#newweapon 708
#name "Rusted Short Sword"

#newweapon 709
#name "Rusted Broad Sword"

#newweapon 710
#name "Warhorse Hoof"

#newweapon 751
#name "Divine Flail"

#newweapon 752
#name "Divine Flail"

#newweapon 753
#name "Divine Flail"

#newweapon 754
#name "Hell Hooves"

#newweapon 754
#name "Divine Lightning"

#newweapon 755
#name "Bow of Agonizing Death"

#newweapon 768
#name "Crude Shortbow"

#newweapon 769
#name "Druid Blessed Axe"



#newarmor 252
#name "Rotted Shield"

#newarmor 253
#name "Rotted Buckler"

#newarmor 254
#name "Rusted Iron Cap"

#newarmor 255
#name "Rusted Legionary Helmet"

#newarmor 256
#name "Rotted Tower Shield"

#newarmor 257
#name "Rusted Full Helmet"

#newarmor 258
#name "Rusted Kite Shield"

#newarmor 259
#name "Rusted Scale Mail Hauberk"

#newarmor 260
#name "Rusted Plate Hauberk"

#newarmor 261
#name "Rusted Chain Mail Hauberk"

#newarmor 262
#name "Rusted Ring Mail Hauberk"

#newarmor 263
#name "Rusted Scale Cuirass"

#newarmor 264
#name "Gold Plate"

#newarmor 264
#name "Heavy Ashigaru Armor"

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

I've spotted another little bug in CBM 1.1 complete.

For LA tienchi the commander unit #addreccom 2778 should be #addreccom 807 - it's the H1 priest guy. Right now it's just a blank unit with stats 10 of everything.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

QM - any chance you could give us a definitive CBCompleteV1.1 file? I'm using the one lch has linked to, but Sombre's observations sound like it may not be quite right.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Those are just bugs - the actual file is as good as the segmented ones I think, maybe very slightly different.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

I can't download this. =( Yousendit didn't work.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Check my two posts, the first one is for the segmented file, the second is the all-in-one version. You're back?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

yah =D

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Celestial Masters don't have holy magic in cb?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Small bug/oversight, should be fixed next version.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Got another bug with tienchi qm - are you on a mission to mess with them or what?

Anyway, with EA Tienchi, when you tried to edit the Celestial Master, you gave the unit id in the dm as 1544, which is actually the unit id of the Warrior OTFE. Consequently the Warrior OTFE is now old (because of the magic paths) and the Celestial Master is unchanged.

Here's the code for the two units in question.

-Warrior of the Five Elements
#selectmonster 1544
#gcost 30
#end

-Celestial Master
#selectmonster 1544 --- THIS SHOULD BE 941
#clearmagic
#custommagic 2816 100
#custommagic 2816 50
#custommagic 13440 100
#magicskill 0 1
#magicskill 1 1
#magicskill 2 2
#magicskill 4 1
#end

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Oh and should EA Vanheim dwarves have a forge bonus? They don't currently in cbm or vanilla, but the description sure suggests they should, all balance aside.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Dwarves forge things finely, not cheaply, at least that was KO's explanation as I recall.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

I'm uploading cb complete 1.1 again (my own version, but basically the same) so that people can get to it. This thread has a confusing mess of broken download links.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

I found a bug in CB. The Abyssian national spell Inner Furnace works fine in Vanilla (tested this), but with the CB complete 1.1 on, the results differ.

It gives all troops on the battlefield heat(3), even opponents troops. And since the opponents troops don't have Fire resistance, this is quite a killer.

I have a savegame where you can see the bugged Inner Furnace in action..

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Hmm, you know this actually almost makes for a more interesting spell, after I fix this I may think about adding a new spell with that intentional effect. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

I think that some minor change could maybe be made to EA Agartha, so they could dispose of a less crappy elite(maybe better att and def ?). For the moment, with the raise in cost of troglodites (which seems normal), I mostly use indeps, and, because most of them have been tweaked, I find agartha less efficient than before,what is quite odd.(they weren't top notch before, but maybe there is something I missed)
In all other aspects, this mod seems to me unavoidable.(I do no more play vanilla games)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Right, the 3.10 patch raises some problems. So far the two I've spotted with the help of lch (cheers buddy) are due to pointless annoying name changes which no doubt resulted from the nitpick kings and their 'typo fix' stuff.

First.

The next cbm has to replace #selectarmor "light weight scale mail" with, get this,..

#selectarmor "lightweight scale mail"

That was actually causing cbm to not work at all with 3.10. Nice huh?

Next up,

#selectspell "Claws of Cocytus" needs to be changed to

#selectspell "Claws of Kokytos"

Very, very silly.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Those two are the only changes that break things between 3.08 and 3.10 in mods (unless someone has made the mistake of editing certain void monsters and the retiarius by their monster names instead of number). The biggest problem with the whole armor and spell issues is that they are not selectable by ID number as they properly should be. Well, spells are, afaik, but there is no spell DB yet. If you could select and assign armor by ID number (like you can do with weapons) instead of having to use the names, there would be no problems at all with those.

People have at various points *****ed about various typos, spelling errors and other such things in the game (I'm not the only one who has noticed such things), so once they were being looked at in a coherent fashion, it made no sense at all not to harmonize all spellings across the board. I have to shoulder a fair portion of the blame and I apologize for the inconvenience, but I do not regret those changes coming about.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

This isn't really about CBM, but it would be nice if when the patch was released the modders here could be informed which nametypes, nation numbers etc are being used by the new material. It would help us out and presumably not take long for KO or whoever to look up.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Point. I don't actually know the nametypes or nation numbers for the new ones, but Fomoria is supposedly 15 and Pythium SC is probably 70 (Lanka 68, Eriu 69 and SC is at the end of the LA list in games). Pythium SC probably uses the EA/MA Ermor & MA Pythium nametype, no idea about the Fomorians.

I'm going to compile a lot of the mod stuff that I talked about earlier and present it to IW for review for the next patch, now that a lot of the other stuff that was with 3.08 is out of the way. The next edition of the Dom3DB is also going to be more useful to nation modders (lists nation numbers, start forts and sites and will eventually have more stuff).

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

The IDs are correct. Nation number 70 changed its file names from nation_70.* to pythium.* which is, uh, funny in ongoing games, but amazingly does not break anything cross versions.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

I just fixed a couple of typos in this description - below is the fixed version ready to include in the next version.

--Jotunhiem ME

#newmonster 2888
#copyspr 283
#copystats 283
#gcost 40
#name "Chief"
#descr "The Wolf Kin of Jotun, or Vaettir, as they call themselves, are a tribal people of goblins living in the deep forests of Jotunhiem. They try to avoid contact with the giants, but serve the Gygjas without question. The Hags are sacred to the Wolf Kin, and a Vaetti would gladly die to protect a Gygja in danger. The Wolf Kin wear heavy furs, and some ride into battle on their wolven friends. Vaettir are small and stealthy and can hide in enemy territories."
#end


I am going to post other random bits for the update in this thread over the next couple of days.

I might as well say these random bits now -

Little Bakemono should be size 1, not 2. Not major, but they are clearly size 1 units in terms of graphics and stats.

Pikes need something extra to make people consider building them. Since the main advantage of being mounted is having +def, I suggest giving pikes +2 to att rather than the +1 they have now. Simple, easy change and gives pikemen a niche.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Thanks for working to update this mod for the new patch, I eagerly await its completion!

But, you asked for the reasons why I dislike the item and nation mods, so I will comment on them. I really do like most of what you've done, so don't get the wrong idea.

Nation Mod:

My major beef with this one is the increased cost for indy commanders and scouts. It may be that they are actually worth that much (?) or you did it because things just work out better that way, I'm not sure, but I just don't care for it, and that's enough to prevent me from using this one. I do like just about everything else in it.

Perhaps, lower the indy commanders from 65 to maybe 40 or 45?

Item mod:

First thing off hand that I remember was the increased cost of the dwarven hammers. I pretty much hate that, lol. As far as other complaints, nothing really stands out except many of the things you've changed just don't seem to be necessary. Maybe for half the changes, I'm just not sure why they were made. Some of them seem good, but mostly I just don't get it.

Take for example the changes to research items. I mean.. weren't they perfectly fine before?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Ah, well, you've picked probably the two most popular major complaint's, I have to admit I was hoping for something more exotic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

With those (as with most anything in the mod), I'm willing to be convinced on them. The reasoning behind the indy change is very simple: everyone uses the indy scouts/troops leaders to the exclusion of national ones. The national ones could be made 0 gold and they would still not be chosen vs default priced indies, due to fort slots. That said, I have been playing with the idea of instead differentiating national commanders by giving them extra weapons, abilities and stats. This seems a fun idea, but it has a lot hurtles, among which is coming up with enough different boosts, making them all thematic (having magical weapons and HP is particularly tricky), and not undercutting heroes.

The reasoning for the hammer getting harder to get is simply that it's incredibly under priced. People complain about clams... it's not unusual for a hammer to pay off in one turn. The hammer was already an amazing deal in dom2, now it just so happens to be 25% off in base game. I can understand people being annoyed by the change when they first come across it, but I would argue it actually cuts down mm in addition to improving balance. As far as I can tell, no one really seems to think the base game price is particularly balanced, merely convenient since hammer abuse is so deeply ingrained in dominions players.

In the case of research items, I must admit I am quite astonished at the number of people who use them base game. I don't think I would ever use them other than perhaps the occasional lightless lantern binge. However, it seems lots of people swear by skull mentors and owl quills, so since the change seems to confuse some people I will likely reset it next version. Aside from that, I'm not sure what would be considered extraneous tweaks, apart from simply insufficient ones. There are a lot of items that are rather useless even at the very minimum cost and level, nonetheless I gave them what boosts I could on the slim chance someone might be able to come up with an off-the-wall tactic for them.

Again, I very much appreciate the feedback, if there is one lesson I have learned making CB it's that people are happy with almost any balance or imbalance, but make a change that inconveniences people and all hell breaks loose. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

AoE on weapons is moddable currently. Will you be changing the Star of Heroes like you said on IrC some time ago?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

I strongly suspect even with the improved AoE modding it will still lose it's armor breaking power by making it AoE, but I suppose it might be worth testing.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Yes, it will, since Armor Dest is not an AoE effect. However, you could mod Armor Dest to also have AoE 1 and then set that as #secondaryeffectalways on Star of Heroes. That *should* work, but no guarantees.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

You could #copyweapon the armor-breaking property itself, and make THAT #aoe 1, couldn't you?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

I wasn't aware there was a "Destroy armor" weapon. I thought that property was one of those that exists on items, not equipment. Like the properties on item-armour.


Edit: By the way there is no copy weapon command.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Weapon 174, "Armor Dest"

Most of the special weapon attributes, like Small Area Flame and Frost, or 1AN+MR, or Enslavement, are actually weapons.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Oh then I think the answer is simple.

#selectweapon "Star of Heroes"
#secondaryeffectalways XXX
#end

#newweapon XXX
#name "Wreck Armor"
#aoe 1
#secondaryeffect "Armor Dest"
#end

That should/could work. Obviously needs a test. I don't know if you can chain secondaryeffects.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

You probably can. However, AFAIK, this would create a default weapon (0 dam + str? whatever) that has the same special effect as the Star of Heroes. It might work, it might not. In case it doesn't work, this might work:

#newweapon XXY
#name "Destruction"
#copyweapon "Armor Dest"
#aoe 1
#end

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Neither of these worked. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Sombre, that one can't work, since AoE weapon secondaryeffects must always be of the #secondaryeffectalways variety. Try assigning AoE 1 to Armor Dest and see where that gets you. Or did you try that already, Endo?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

That's a shame.

It's a pet peeve of mine, but I'd really like to see a forgeable weapon that strikes with AoE (think of Sauron at the battlefield in the first LoTR movie, Sauron struck like 3 guys at once). Something to give some options for a SC/thug weapon besides the Brands.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod (and summary file) 1.
 

Endo's one didn't work because there is no #copyweapon command, which I pointed out earlier.


Ok, so try my one but use #secondaryeffectalways both times.

So:

#selectweapon "Star of Heroes"
#secondaryeffectalways XXX
#aoe 1
#end

#newweapon XXX
#name "Wreck Armor"
#aoe 1
#nostr
#dmg 1
#secondaryeffectalways "Armor Dest"
#end


The reason to avoid messing with "Armor Dest" giving it aoe 1 is that it might impact more than the star of heroes.

Oh and Burnsaber: It's not that we're having trouble getting AOE working on star of heroes. The problem is getting the AOE on the armour destroying effect as well.