Newbie Question on special tech (Organic, etc.)
 

Hi all,

I just modified my race to give it access to a special tech tree (Organics in this case) and see what cool benefits that would give me. I Have not tried any of the others (Temporal etc.) yet.

I must say, after 30 turns or so, I am a bit disappointed. But, I may be missing something here.. Please comment on this analysis:

If you research Organic Weapons I, you basically get 5 advances all at once, for different types of weapons (direct fire, missiles, no PD). If you research the standard weapons equivalents in stead (one by one) it will take you longer, for example lets say Organic Weapons I costs 40K in research, and researching 5 areas separately (DUC II, CSM II, etc) would cost like 70 K.

The thing is, the specs of the standard weapons beat the Organics ! (range, damage etc). Sure, organic missiles I (parasites) beat the CSM I, but by the time I have researched it my opponent already had CSM III..

Then there is Organic tech like Gestation Vats and Medical Labs...hmm. Is 1% more pop growth worth a facility slot? against AI players? I think not. Bio warfare? Never seen the AI do it, so I wouldnt need hospitals. Make my citizens more happy? (granted, 1% /turn SYSTEM wide is nice) why bother when all my planets are already happy? (dont know why they are happy, but just checked and looked for an unhappy system to build this thing in, turned out it wasn't necessary).

The only truly unique thing the Organics have is Organics armor (regenerates). But is that enough to spend 1500 racial points on?

Let's open up the discussion...and maybe a thread comparing the 4 special tech trees? I searched the forum but couldn't find a specific thread about it, although I'm sure it has been discussed before somewhere...

Re: Newbie Question on special tech (Organic, etc.)
 

I don't play the specials much but from what I've read the benefits are not gained early in the game. They seem to come into their own at the higher levels. Maybe give your game a little more time to develop.

Re: Newbie Question on special tech (Organic, etc.)
 

Dragonlord I am not surprised, that you are disappointed from any special technology after 30 turns starting with low technology. All special technology will only be of real value later in the game (more than about 100 turns). In the early game the special tech races are weaker than the normal races because they used racial and research points for something that has not an immediate benefit. However in the later game or starting with full technology the special tech races get quite strong and each has it's main advantage. For the organic technology I agree with you that's the organic armor in the first place.
So is it worth 1500 race points? That's the beauty of the game: there is no clear answer yes or no, it all depends what kind of game you play.

Re: Newbie Question on special tech (Organic, etc.)
 

One point to consider with all special techs when playing PBEM games is they are not very general trade material. In the two games I've been in so far, trading tech has been essential to survival (at least for me). It is enough to decide me against racial techs.

Re: Newbie Question on special tech (Organic, etc.)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeTharg:
In the two games I've been in so far, trading tech has been essential to survival (at least for me). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Add a trick I use to your list. After you find a successful tech trade, do it over again, adding to the want package 200/200/200k of resources! Sometimes you can get the resources that the AI is just throwing away, and of course you need to have storage built for them too. I got millions of resources that way in the game I was playing under 1.35, but it may be fixed in 1.41 of course...

Re: Newbie Question on special tech (Organic, etc.)
 

Dragonlord: You're absolutely right about the balance that Organic tech gives you -- very rounded. Organic weapons are generally considered to be the best (long range, low tonnage, fast reload), but it takes awhile to research up to the good stuff. IMO, the enveloping acid globule is hands-down the best long-range direct fire weapon in the game. And the small electric discharge is my favorite for fighters -- again for range and size considerations.

Having said all that, I should note that I'm addicted to temporal tech. Great weapons, powerful facilities, and low-cost sensors early in the game. If I play with any racial tech at all anymore, generally it's temporal.

Re: Newbie Question on special tech (Organic, etc.)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Damage Ratings:
APB XII: 2.1 - 1.5, normal
DUC V: 1.33, normal
PM V: 1.0 - 0.27, seeker

PC V: 1.33 - 1.0, normal, organic
HPB V: 1.67 - 1.0, normal, organic
ED III: 1.5 - 0.5, normal, organic
LR III: 2.0 - 0.5, normal, organic
SP V: 1.0, seeker, organic
AG V: 0.56, normal, organic
EAG V: 1.25, normal, organic
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As you can see from the above, the Seeking Parasites are the best missile in the game.
Also, the Enveloping Acid Globule and the Hyper-Plasma Bolt, while not the most powerful, are quite dangerous weapons, and are protected from capture/analyzing.

Re: Newbie Question on special tech (Organic, etc.)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
As you can see from the above, the Seeking Parasites are the best missile in the game.
Also, the Enveloping Acid Globule and the Hyper-Plasma Bolt, while not the most powerful, are quite dangerous weapons, and are protected from capture/analyzing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SJ, can you please clarify for me how I should read the table, and what the acronyms mean? (I can only figure out a few)

Hey, is special tech protected? Did not know that! no capture no analyse eh? Any other way of getting it if you dont have it? Will the AI trade it to you or hand it over when they surrender?

Re: Newbie Question on special tech (Organic, etc.)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dragonlord:
Hey, is special tech protected? Did not know that! no capture no analyse eh? Any other way of getting it if you dont have it? Will the AI trade it to you or hand it over when they surrender?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Simply put, you can't learn/gain/discover racial techs in any way. You can use ships and facilities using those techs anyway.

In a PBeM game, I'll sooner or later play a merchant race and "sell" special tech ships http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Newbie Question on special tech (Organic, etc.)
 

Racial Techs kick @$$e$, especially at the end of the racial tech trees. I always like to play a combination of 2 or even 3 racial treats. My Favorites are:

-Religious: shrines to improve planets and their defense and output, RELIGIOUS TALISMAN (every direct fire and PDF weapon 100% to hit chance)

-Organic: organic armor, Replicant facilities, small electric discharge (best weapon for fighters/troops)

-Psychic: ALLEGIANCE SUBVERTER ( mighty weapon, even in AIs hands)

I think all of the racial traits are very good addons, because they turn a race into something special/individual. I would like to see some more traits in later patches (taken from the ideas of the forum).



[This message has been edited by PsychoTechFreak (edited 23 June 2001).]

Re: Newbie Question on special tech (Organic, etc.)
 

Can two races with the same racial tech trade those special techs? I would think they could, but I've never had an opportunity to test it.

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Re: Newbie Question on special tech (Organic, etc.)
 

If you do not have a racial trait then your max tech level for the racial techs in Zero. Nothing more.

I once played as a race with ALL the racial techs. Had to go max negative on most other things to get under the 2000 racial point setting http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.
Basically, I traded ships and analysed all of the aliens tech. I got crystalline from the Phong, organic from the UkraTal, psychic from the CueCappa, and temporal from somebody else.
I only had to research religious on my own http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Then I sold ships with Organic/Crystalline crossover tech armor for planets, more tech, money, protection, everything http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.


When I said protected, I meant protected, not private.
Most races will not be able to analyse your tech or repair it, only those few who have the racial trait can.
That still means most races cannot benefit from the capture of your tech.

Re: Newbie Question on special tech (Organic, etc.)
 

Let me just make sure I fully understand: even if you have the trait for Organic tech, you cannot get temporal or religious tech, right? You can only trade weapon levels and such with another Organic race. Or trade to get their advanced ships and analyse those.

Re: Newbie Question on special tech (Organic, etc.)
 

Yep! If your race dosen't have the racial trait, its like your tech level in the racial tech area is always reset to zero.

You can analyse the racial tech ship, (to get engines or hullsize etc), but you won't learn organic unless you paid for it.

Re: Newbie Question on special tech (Organic, etc.)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dragonlord:
SJ, can you please clarify for me how I should read the table, and what the acronyms mean? (I can only figure out a few)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not SJ, but...

APB = Anti-Proton Beam
DUC = Depleted-Uranium Cannon (Projectile Weapons
PM = Plasma Missile (Missiles, ca. 4-8 or something like that)


PC = Plasma Cannon
HPB = Heavy Plasma Beam, IIRC
ED = Electric Discharge
LR = Lightning Ray
SP = Seeker Parasite
AG = Acid Globule
EAG = Enveloping Acid Globule

(all from Organic Weapons, which goes up to level 10 IIRC w/ SPs early and EAGs late).

Re: Newbie Question on special tech (Organic, etc.)
 

From the Many (semi) newbie questions...advice requested thread.

Format is;
Weapon : Maxdamage - Mindamage (shield damage), damagetype, other details.

Damage Ratings are damage per turn per kT.
((Damage amount / reload rate) / size of weapon)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Okeydokey. Here are the damage Ratings for various weapons, at max tech.

APB XII: 2.1 - 1.5, normal
CSM V: 0.8, seeker
MB: 1.75, normal
AMT V: 0.625, normal
QT V: 1.25, normal
PM V: 1.0 - 0.27, seeker
PDC V: 3.25, pointdefence, +70%
PPB V: 2.0 - 1.67, phased
RB IV: 2.5, normal
IB III: 0.9, normal, +10%
WMG III: 0.67, normal, +30%
TPC V: 0.375 - 0.188, Weapons only
ID V: 1.3, engines only
IPM V: 0.625, engines only, seeker
PN V: 15.0, planets only
NB V: 5.0, planet population only
GHB V: 1.21 - 0.33, normal
SD V: 7.5, shields only
DUC V: 1.33, normal
PC V: 1.33 - 1.0, normal, organic
HPB V: 1.67 - 1.0, normal, organic
ED III: 1.5 - 0.5, normal, organic
LR III: 2.0 - 0.5, normal, organic
SP V: 1.0, seeker, organic
AG V: 0.56, normal, organic
EAG V: 1.25, normal, organic
SC X: 1.17, skip armor, crystalline
HEM III: 0.917, normal, crystalline
TDB V: 1.0 (4.0), quad2shields, temporal
TS III: 0.33, skips all, temporal
TKP V: 1.75, normal, psychic
CW III: 6.0, warhead
MSD: 10.0, one shot, RuinsTech
MID: 5.0, one shot, RuinsTech
NSP: 0.4, skips all
CT V: 0.45, ships armor, seeker
SA V: 9.0, shields only, temporal
TC III: 1.2, normal, temporal, +10%
MSG III: 0.68, normal, psychic, +20%

Acronyms expanded in order:

Anti-proton Beam, Capital Ship Missile, Meson BLaster, Antimatter Torpedo, Quantum Torpedo, Plasma Missile, PointDefence Cannon, Phased Polaron Beam, Ripper Beam, Incinerator Beam, Wave Motion Gun, Tachyon Projection Cannon, Ionic Disperser, Ionic pulse missile, Planetary Napalm, Neutron bomb, Graviton Hellbore, Shield Depleter, Depleted Uranium Cannon, Plasma charge, Hyperplasma bolt, Electric Discharge, Lightning gun, Seeking Parasite, Acid Globule, Enveloping Acid Globule, Shard Cannon, High Energy Magnifier, Time Distortion Burst, Temporal shifter, Telekinetic projector, Cobalt Warhead, Massive Shield depleter/Ionic disperser, Null-spaceProjector, Crystalline torpedo,Shield Accelerator ,Tachyon Cannon ,MentalSingularityGenerator

-Suicide Junkie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 23 June 2001).]