Summoning vs Forging
 

A month or so back, I asked folks' opinions on whether they'd rather use their gems to summon more immediate combat support, or call down nasty ritual spells upon their enemies, and I learned quite a bit. Thanks again to all who shared their thoughts there!

Well, since I'm in a strategy-comparison mood, I thought I'd bring up another topic for debate. Again, let me preface, I'm mostly interested in MP play (but I wont freak if you make SP relevant comments).

So, basically, I'm wondering if, for example, you summon up yourself something like a Wraith Lord (or perhaps you have your own bad *** national recruits - I dunno, something like a Yomi Dai-Oni perhaps), and you've just blown 40 gems. Are you better off blowing another 40 or so gems to kit him out, or are you better off just getting another of the same?

I mean, to fit out a proper SC/Thug, it seems like it costs many extra gems, and a lot of extra mage time in forging.

I mean, wouldn't you be better off using those extra gems to summon more units (or to cast nasty rituals upon your foes)? Or to use that mage time for research, or to send those would-be forgers off to war instead?

Making a proper SC/Thug just seems to be a lot more hassle than its worth. Or is making SCs/Thugs just something not generally done by the more experienced MP players?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Re: Summoning vs Forging
 

While (as with most questions of this type) it will vary depending on your specific situation, kitting out a SC properly is almost always more cost effective- particularly in MP where your opponent will be actively trying to kill your best dudes. There are very few creatures who can singlehandedly take out an army straight out the box, and very few that are any threat to a kitted SC without equipment of their own. So if you're not killing armies, and you're not killing SCs then you're much less than half as valuable as someone who is. I can't think of any combat-use summon I'd rather have two of than just one properly equipped.

[edit] Ok, I did think of a case that you will often want more rather than properly outfitted ones - immortal units. Since the equipment is lost if they die, leaving them naked allows them to be used completely disposable. This still isn't a no-brainer, as anybody who's fought kitted wraith lords knows, but LA Ulm's vampire counts, for instance, would be wasteful to equip with anything.

Re: Summoning vs Forging
 

Looking forward to hearing discussion on this, but IMO I agree with Baalz.

Beyond the strategy question, for me theres nothing in the game more fun than having a properly kitted SC tear through enemies.

Consequently, there's nothing more distressing to see him finally brought low.

Re: Summoning vs Forging
 

[SP player here]

To the OP,

A naked Wraith Lord can take a lot of armies, since he's not really naked--he's ethereal, Prot 22, with a Bane Blade. I'd probably drop a Pendant of Luck on him if I could (3 pearls with a hammer) but wouldn't feel compelled to kit him out as long as I had Soul Vortex researched. Of course, it depends upon whether how I intend to use him. If he's intended to go on the offensive I'll probably want him to have mobility (7 air gems for Winged Shoes), and he'll be inside of enemy dominion so I'll probably get him a shield (charcoal or gleaming gold) and a sword to go with it (shadow brand), to protect my investment. If he's working in concert with ground pounders, or in tandem with another Wraith Lord, I'll probably consider him acceptable with just the pendant.

I suspect I'd feel differently about a non-immortal unit. If I intended to use a Tomb Oracle as an SC, I'd kit him out to protect my investment, not only from death but also from random afflictions like Mute. If I were using him as a support caster (<Summon Earthpower, Earthquake, Earthquake> to kill mages for my Umbrals) I might use him naked or with some bare minimum of gear because I don't expect him to be in real danger, but as an SC he's just going to get himself killed if I don't give him at least a sword and shield.

-Max

Re: Summoning vs Forging
 

Problem with SCs I've always seen is that they can be killed by magic, no matter how high their MR is. If you go against a Mind Hunt spammer, you need to keep astral mages around - and even that's not a sure fire way for your SC to survive, unless you keep a really high quality mage with your SC, or multiple lower ones... Which kind of turns the SC into less cost effective than it would've been. Even if your SC dies in as many as a dozen Mind Hunt casts... Remember that that's just 24 Astral gems versus your probably used tons of gems of various types.

And that's just Mind Hunt. What about an Earth Attack, Manifestation, Vengeance or somesuch spammer? No way to stop those, and in the case of Vengeance (as Micah reported, Vengeances getting through 22 MR or so) spam, if they keep getting through, you just keep getting more and more kills... And while your great SC will probably get really high in kills and rise up in HoF, he'll also die sooner or later if the Vengeance spam is determined enough! Hit turn 75 and you're screwed.

And hell, I guess that even spamming Seeking Arrow would be effective if you can throw, say, 5 of them at a single SC.

But about the deal in question, I guess I'd go for multiple units with not too expensive items. Sure, I'd want to make sure my investment doesn't die in the first fight, but also I would want to make sure my said investment won't cost too much if (when) I lose it. I really like Wraith Lords because of that, since they're immortal (whee, no losing them!) and relatively tough out of the box.

As you might guess from what I've already said, I don't like putting all my eggs in the one basket called Super Combatants. ;p

Re: Summoning vs Forging
 

You shouldnt put all your eggs in one basket, Super Combatants or otherwise. But that doesnt mean that SCs arent valuable just because the enemy has assassination spells.

IMO, I would always kit out an SC over summoning a new one. With the exception of a chasis that had strong intrinsic magic that I could use to buff them thoroughly or cast some particular spell to support my army. Another concern would be unique SCs. In that case, I would always want to immediately summon more of them -- to lock out that whole class of summons before my enemies could get any.

Re: Summoning vs Forging
 

This is what I find, I have had so many SC's with MR 25-30+ killed by a lucky soul slay, petrify, converted by enslave mind or horror marked to death or feeble minded etc, etc...

Just spam any of those at a SC and you will get lucky pretty quickly. The SC will be lucky to survive 2+ battles. This is a poor return.

Also putting your SC with a army offers no real protection, as spells with a 100 precision seem to directly target SC's and ingnore the rest of the army. I believe this is because SC's are generally large size and spells go for those first.

Re: Summoning vs Forging
 

I think spells generally target units with more HP.

SCs should be kept as mobile as possible. The more predictable they are, the easier it is to use anti-SC mages against them.

Re: Summoning vs Forging
 

Flying and stealthy(possibly immortal too, like vampires) SCs are great, as are teleporting SCs like golems. The main reason for this is that they can get somewhere and do some serious damage before being noticed so that even if the enemy does kill them quickly theres a chance for them to justify their cost. Taking a large, high health SC with anti magic equipment to draw hostile magics away from the damage dealers can also work(make sure hes bigger and higher health than others. Give him a lead shield, skullcap, antimagic amulet ect)

Re: Summoning vs Forging
 

Though I am no SC expert by any stretch (though I've killed a few), I think another way to agree with the thoughts so far is:

Point: Piling magic items on a good unit can make it even more powerful, giving it an even better chance of survival, and the ability to be superior to the most powerful opponents. Having a couple more items, or fortuitously-chosen items, can give your toughest warriors a major edge over your opponents. The investment can be more effective than recruiting more units without equipment.

Counter-point: Unexpected results occur, and there are counters, and the more piled on one unit is the more risked on one unit. There are some rather cheap items or summons which may defeat the best super-combatants more economically than the super-combatant was created for. The question then becomes, how much damage the SC can do before it runs afoul of a nemesis. A minor counterpoint is also, when an equipped SC falls, how many of his toys get captured by the enemy...

Some cheap things I've seen defeat equipped SC's:

alone:

Decay (spell, Banes, Bane lords, decay weapons, etc.)
Ethereal Crossbow
Soul Slay
Disintegrate
Poison
Trampling
The Stone Sword

with help from friends:

Entanglement (Tangle Vines, Vine Arrow, Vine Bow, etc.)
Curse
Flame Arrows
Horrors
Vengeance of the Dead
Black Bow of Botulf
Herald Lance
Fatigue (see strong cold or heat auras)

Re: Summoning vs Forging
 

Petrification + Devourer of Souls can be beat anything.

Re: Summoning vs Forging
 

I wonder whether it might be a good idea to give an SC super-chaff, in the form of e.g. an Iron Dragon. Something with lots of hit points to draw magic and confuse the combat AI, good mobility so as not to tie down the SC, and good morale so as not to make the SC rout. Maybe not; Enslave Mind works just as well against an Iron Dragon as it does against an SC and now you have to fight your own chaff.

On the other hand, I would really hate to fight an equipped Wraith Lord with 9 Iron Dragons. Even if I got lucky once with Petrify, Disintegrate, etc., I'd probably lose all my mages and be unable to repeat it on the other 8 dragons for the next battle. Maybe there is something to be said for quantity.

-Max

Re: Summoning vs Forging
 

I believe Iron Dragons are mindless, so they will be ignored for Enslave Mind.

Re: Summoning vs Forging
 

Yeah, Enslave Mind, Soul Slay and the works will work only on the commander-type. And then... There's a whole plethora of things that work on the Iron Dragons. All the things that work on Lifeless things (like Shatter), all things that work on Magical things (like Opposition, Unraveling). Storm kills their flying ability.

Sure, they rock people's socks off if they haven't had the time to prepare, but they aren't that hot when they are ready. :/

Re: Summoning vs Forging
 

What IS good against a ready opponent?

Re: Summoning vs Forging
 

You don't have to make them into a thug. Great returns can be had by (for example) summoning one of the stealthy types with some nasty side effect (causes disease), then giving them an item to increase or add to this effect (bane venom charm).
Send them off to skulk around your opponents research base, or just have them tail the pretender and similar to wreak havoc.

Re: Summoning vs Forging
 

Whatever they're not ready for. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Summoning vs Forging
 

but not "control" which is less research and easier to cast. It really pisses me off when I lose an SC to "control"

Re: Summoning vs Forging
 

Point taken. I tested this out with a Wraith Lord + 9 Iron Dragons vs. 10-15 Ktonian necromancers w/ 25 PD and 30-odd troops (since LA Agartha is my flavor of the month) casting Shatter, Banefire, and Petrify. The Iron Dragons killed all the troops, zero mages, and died to a man. That's good to know in case anyone ever rushes me with Iron Dragons. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

My current nightmare is now a Tartarian who casts Rain of Stones on the first round of combat, accompanied by 9 Iron Dragons. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I suppose the defender bonus of going first, together with Ironskin, would probably get me through, though.

-Max
Very fond of petrify at the moment

Re: Summoning vs Forging
 

I am SC addict, although after the first few bite the dust, I start supporting
them heavily. In general, I find that spells that are the bane of single SCs
are rather worthless when the SCs have an army in tow. This is how I see the
balance of power:

Mages leading strong armies defeat anything.
Offensive rituals and suicide squads cripple mages and armies.
Well equipped SCs are terrific harassers.
Teleporting squads convert or eliminate solo SCs easily.
Everything but a stealth SC will die 1 turn after the enemy gets serious about it.

At the end of my MP games usually I end up with huge armies composed of 2-3 SCs,
a few dozen mages, 200-300 archers, and some protection 20+ meat shields. Half
the mages at least are capable of generating chaffe. In big battles, I cast at
least a couple of mass protection spells. Still the casualties are usually high.

At the same time, I usually have at least 2-3 fully equipped SCs hopping in the
enemy's rear and hurting his economy.

For defense, I rely only on castles. In the only MP game I currently am, I have
as many castles as everyone else together, and I am only one of the four
remaining superpowers. By the time the enemy cracks a castle, there should be
a custom tailored defense force waiting.

As for equipment, I believe in fully equipped SCs. The wraith lords with Soul
Vortex are the only exception and that only against indies in friendly domain.
If the target is worth a SC, it's worth an equipped one.

Re: Summoning vs Forging
 

Nice analysis, Tuidjy! I agree on almost all points.

The only thing I do differently is forts. I believe that a strong offense is the best defense http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Summoning vs Forging
 

So what are the archers for? Do you use archers since they will stay where you put them?

Re: Summoning vs Forging
 

Yup, the archers stay in place for 12 turns, and the crossbowmen for even longer.
Furthermore, do not sneer at 300 archers with Flame Arrows and Wind Guide.
Enemy chaffe just evaporates. In the game I mentioned, I broke a 600+ army
on turn two, using mostly archers and Shadow Blasts. If the enemies had not been
three quarters jaguar warriors, they may have broken after the first salvo. As
it were, I lost half my archers to enemy spells. Still, a good castle produces
50 archers per turn, but only one sauromancer.

But of course, there are spells like Arrow Fend that neuter the archers. They
still stay and fire, though, and die much slower... the mages do the real job,
the archers are there to prevent the enemy from targeting the mages.

Oh, and a strong offense is worse than a strong offense plus a strong defense. ;-)