Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

I saw there's a threas about super combatant builds for pretenders and it mentions how it is harder to outfit SC's than mere 'thugs'.

But myself, I know next to nothing about thugs. So those of you who are already experienced, please share your thug builds as an example?

It doesn't have to be anything fancy, just what it pays off to add to an army when going to war against your first enemy...

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

When I think of a thug, I don't think so much of them supplementing armies, more as lone raiders. Like the classic black servant with armor and maybe a luck pendant.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

What's your Pretender, what nation are you playing, and what magic paths are you using?

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

Okay, tell me more. I'm really new to some aspects of the game. Black servant with armour and luck pendant? And how do I use him? Get few of them and attack? Attack who? 'quite well defense' provinces?

Well, many. At the moment I'd be especially interested in tips for the following:
LA Ulm with blood&death pretendder
EA C'Tis with an all-path pretender
EA Ermor with an earth pretender
MA Ermor with a death pretender
LA Marignon with a fire&astral pretender
Vanheim with a water&earth pretender

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

Use them to raid whoever you are at war with, generally raiding thugs rely on stealth or flying to dodge defending armies. Even the weakest thugs are usually capable of taking out 1-20 points of PD for most nations.

Of those nations you mention, by far the easiest to thug with is Vanhiem, your recruitable commanders with the right bless hardly even need equipment to tackle a lot of PD. Even without a bless, you might try something like girdle of might/luck pendant/frost brand, cast mistform and attack in battle. Of course the exact setup varies based on your indy mage availability and the randoms on your mages.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

Quantum_mechani, I'm quite a bit new, also, but that strat may be useful in my current C'tis vs. Ulm game. With a black servant thug, versus PD, how many thugs would you recommend and what level of construction research?

As to specifically which toys, I'll enjoy figuring that out for myself. But I'd rather not sacrifice my rare astral gems before their time. So.. Trinkets enough? Or do I need lesser or greater, etc.

Thank you.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

Two really nice low level items to forge are Pendant of Luck and Amulet of Antimagic. They're both Astral 1. You can forge them as soon as you have the construction and the gems, and they're incredibly useful.

Ring of the Warrior is superb if you've got blood-it's equal to the amulet and pendant in general usefulness throughout the game. Ring of Warning is probably the 4th corner of decent low-level misc. magic items. The 10 guards are nice, but the patrol bonus helps you tax your citizens into the ground for extra gold.

Snake-ring is great to put on thugs that can't use weapons, or have life-drain since it gives 100% poison resistance and poison touch.

Black Bow of Botulf is a good weapon, and it's low level.

Eye of aiming is great in combination with a magical bow, when you're thugging, just understand that it curses your thug, so make sure he's using his bow in the back of your army.

Axe of sharpness is a good choice if you're going to have your thugs dual-wield, since the damage is high and they're short weapons. 2 of them plus a ring of the warrior on an assassin can really increase your kill-factor. Serpent Kryss is better though, if you have nature magic, unless you're attacking someone with good armor or poison resistance.

The enchanted pike isn't a bad weapon either, because of the high length and the fact that it's magical. It's great if you're going up against etherial forces or have to guard against horrors. Thorn staff is good here too.

Copper Plate is decent low level armor, as is Fire Plate, depending on what you want to resist.

Horror helmet is probably the best low level hat around, but I find Horned helmet useful at times too.

Avoid boots, until you can forge atleast Greater magical items. They're basically a waste, except for Birch Boots-absolutely great-and Boots of the Behemoth, and they're only sometimes useful for some nations-EA Atlantis is the top one.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

Well, at a very basic level the black servant thug can be done with just black steel armor from construction 0. Regardless of your build, you will want some kind of body armor, but everything else is more or less optional. Ulm has some pretty good PD though, so unless they are setting it very low you might want a helm and shield too, and the barkskin amulet is another very handy option. The one thing definitely do not want to do is replace the servant's life drain weapon, that's what will keep him going during long fights.

HoneyBadger: Ranged weapon wielding commanders are not generally considered thugs, and combining them with any other equipment apart from eyes of aiming is usually a waste.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

You wouldn't consider a Jotun herse armed with a thunder bow and an eye of aiming a thug?

I wouldn't consider him an SC by any means, but just because it's ranged, what's the difference between that and a thug?
If there is a difference, what's the terminology?

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

Just my view, but a thug is likely to be fighting alone and usually hand to hand. They need to be able to dish it out, but also need to be able to take it. The thunder bow might well clean out PD in the set up your describing, but what happens if the enemy units reach him and fight hand to hand?

The Jotan with bow is a good unit, but a support unit.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

I would call any unit capable of successfully fighting alone, an SC. That's the point of an SC, that they can take and hold territory by themselves.

Thugs come in groups and work in groups as a unit.
Thugs are the A-team, they're commandos. They're small, elite units that can perform independently from your army, but not from each other.

SCs are Superman. They do it all by themselves.

I would call anything specialized-like an assassin or a scout-a support unit, not a thug.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

Hmm, fair enough, I don't think we have a solid dictionary on this. However, I alwyas thought a thug was a unit you could send off to trash the back side of the enemy empire. The run into PD and small armies and eat them, but if they hit a real army they are done for. A SC is a unit that can take the big armies and eat them. In both cases, they do it themselves. The missle units just don't deliver in that area.

This is why we hear about Black Servant thugs. They can and do operate alone, but are not big army killers.

As an aside, a support unit I have recently been enjoying is my "Fort Killer." It is a commander with a "Gate Splitter" and an endless wine skin. Brings extra knock down power to your seige and helps make sure they don't starve. Also nice for carrying gems...

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

LA Ulm with blood&death pretendder

* Hochmeister with blessing and a 0-3 items. Adding a weapon with decent Defense rating (Sword of Sharpness is fine - have a Black Priest site search until you get some Earth income) is a big step up, guarded by 2-4 Black Templars.

More later... got to run...

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

I use Thugs as a common part of my main armies. In fact, one of my favorite aspects of Dominions (especially in single-player, where evilly deadly magic and SC's are less common), is to use mainly national human troops and commanders and develop the best human warrior commanders as thugs fighting amidst the mortal armies.

That said, my other suggestions for thugs as requested:

EA C'Tis with an all-path pretender
- The two armored commanders with a few trinkets on - they don't look great but mine have got into the Hall of Fame even with few or no items in multi-player.
- Banes and Bane Lords.
- Sleepers.
- All paths is great for combining a bunch of cheap hammer-forged trinkets to make a fairly cheap multi-ability thug out of an experienced commander. Human opponents might decide to target them though to get the items just because they will look tempting.

EA Ermor with an earth pretender
- Commanders with trinkets from national mages.
- Banes and Bane Lords.
- Forging Hammer, Marble Armor, and Boots of Stone are a few good thuggish uses of the Earth magic.

MA Ermor with a death pretender
- Banes and Bane Lords.

Vanheim with a water&earth pretender
- Vans with or without blessings and trinkets.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

Actually, the one who coined the terms (apoger) kindly furnished us with a specific definition:

Slayer, obviously, didn't quite fly, but Thug and SC have made it into Dom III terminology. I think the usages have changed with Dom III some, due to the many changes that specifically weaken SCs.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

To me the difference between a Thug and an SC is that an SC can kill a whole army by itself and a thug is a raider or support element.

There are dozens of potential chassis for Thugs- you are looking for 30+ hp, good skills and decent MR. Flight, resistences, stealth, etherial and life drain are all good too. Morale is also a consideration, especialy for raiders, but you can compensate with items if you have to.
Candidates include various badass national leaders, Troll Kings, firbolgs, Ivy Kings, the devil from horde of imps, and plenty of others, but the classic thug chasis is the Bane Lord.

When you build an SC you want the best gear you can build regardless of cost- invincibility is the goal. When you make a thug cost is a big factor- you are looking for bang for the buck, especially if you need a bunch of them.

There are two types of thugs, and i'll just make up names for them now. The Mass Murderer is meant to add lethality to an army or be a raider and his job is to cut down regular troops by the dozens. The Hitman's job is to take down extra-tough enemy troops and/or SCs.

Both types need luck and benefit greatly from quickness. Mass Murderers want AE weapons- Fire or Frost Brands- and usually want regen as well. Hitmen want high damage weapons, strength buffs, attack skill boosts and probably resistance tailored to the circumstances.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

I like to substitute bodyguards, defense, and protection instead of high hit points and regeneration. Then many units can make good thugs.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

High hitpoints are generally just for safety, if aa thug or SC takes decent damage from something chances are they will die eventually.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

What is 'Astral Weapon'? I couldn't find such a spell.
I did however test this build and it's quite good indeed.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

Im pretty sure astral weapon didnt make it into dominions 3 but in dom 2 it just made all your attacks AN iirc.

Back to the original topic can anyone think of particularly effective thug builds?

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

How many gems you want to spend?

10 Frost Brand, Pendant of Luck
15 + Lead Shield
25 +Boots of Quickness
35 +Ring of Regen (or Lycanthrope Amulet)
45 +Amulet of Magic Resistence and Horror Helm

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

Some thugs, but not necessary efficient builds. Click on the thumbnail to view fullsize :-

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/6...yer1ra8.th.jpg

Its got the rat tail and monolith armour because I was sick of them sitting in my lab.

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/9655/tim1tv1.th.jpg

This little fellows more deadly than the banelord, cheap equipment too...

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/2...fourmw9.th.jpg

Shame about the fatigue but fun!

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/4...ver1ms3.th.jpg

Hint, another dude on the battlefield has Banner of the Northern Star, come in packs...

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/2...diceft6.th.jpg

Loves undead/demons.

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/9...fishht2.th.jpg

Come to the dark side...

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/5...ntwoqo5.th.jpg

A bit of a failed experiment, needs higher precision, still 4 bonds of fire per combat rounds not bad.

Just a small example of some of my thugs, I like experimenting as you can see. I even do it alot in MP, rather than go with something I know works, I often make something new up just for fun.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

Cool - thanks for posting those!

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

Nice. I guess now i'll have to post some of mine too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

What this says to me is that SC status is context-dependent, since toward the late game there is no way to protect any single combatant from all the nasty tricks available (though not every trick is necessarily available to every nation). For instance, there is no gear that can protect you from the Standard of the Damned (or five of them), and if you're not immune to Petrify by virtue of being made of stone, no gear will make you so. (Unless Boots of Stone/Stoneskin do, which would be a surprise but not a shock.) Therefore, an SC is only a thug when going up against someone who's reseached/constructed counters he isn't immune to.

-Max

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

High MR, etherialness or combined high prot/high def (above 20 for both), mobility, the ability to attack multiple opponents in a single round and weaken masses of surrounding opponents you don't attack at the same time, good regeneration or affliction healing or lifedrain, and protection from atleast 2 elements/poison or being made of stone, and atleast 2 magic paths with atleast 1 at level 2 or better, these things make for a good SC.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

How about an ethereal def 31, awe, protection 22, luck, mr 20, immunity to poison, fire immunity, cold resist, poison cloud, regeneration with an aoe sword?

<3 erinye.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

That's not too bad, if you started with a basic human or something

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

So what are considered the great non-unique chassis?

For arguments sake - say moderate HP (30+), moderate EQ (const. 6) and moderately expensive (around 60 gems)

Bane Lord - 12 gems, ok HP, undead (no enc, CR), can regen, all slots
Wraith lord - 40 gems, D3 - soul vortex, can regen, all slots, summons ghosts, no enc
Sleeper - less HP, less resistences, 10 gems, all slots, can regen
Golem - mindless, can't regen, S2+skullcap = teleport/slay plus eth, luck, twist, astral shield, no enc, 30 gems, all slots

Beyond the 4 common ones who are considered good?
By path - does fire have one? Water? Earth? Air? Blood has a few, starting with succubus up to some heliophage/lords/archdevils.
By nation - any nation specific? Umbral? Jarls? Unfamiliar with Lanka/patala demon summonings, Mict specific blood summons?

Are some of the knights considered worthwhile? I could see grey knights being worthwhile from the get-go with ethereal.

Any specific heroes that stand out as good base models?

Any worthwhile caster heavy SC's? Either just via buffs or combat magic as well?

Any units that make a great SC with the right prophetize/bless combo?

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

Harbringers are amazing. I've only tried them out in SP, but they've got flight, great Air buffing potential, good HP, can bless themsleves, brutal precision, and absolutely fry demons/undead with their built in massive area ranged attack. Just 25 gems a pop, and Conj 6. Have to be Pythium or Marignon though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Mictlan Tlahuelpuchi cost 25 blood and are Blood 6. I like to send them out with just a regen ring, a bane venom charm, and some blood slaves. They can fly into an enemy capital, turn into a super-stealth dog and disease it for a while. When you get Blood 7, assassination using Leech is very effective.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

yeah, completely forgot about the angels - most of which rock.

Seraph - expensive but fantastic, actually my favorite SC and I never play Marignon/Pythium. Can't remember cost.

Angel of Wrath(?)- all slots + vengeance, not sure bout cost/stats...but vengeance is a big plus.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

For thug efficiency, as MA Ulm I tend to like a Black Lord with two-to-four Black Knight guards, and a Sword of Sharpness forged for 2 Earth gems. As they gain experience and/or heroic abilities, I may add Anti-Magic, Fire Brand, Charcoal Shield, Bracers, Helmet, etc.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

Things like that desperately needs Boots of Quickness!

That's a very nice looking map you got there in the background, where can I get it?

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

I guess the 10 encumbrance also requires the current boots and medaillon to keep him going

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

The jade armour gives quickness.

Its Faerun (Edi's fix), check out the Dom3 scenarios, maps and mods subforum.

The script for this guy is Charm, charm, charm, charm, charm, cast spells. Charms the only spell he can cast, so guess what he does?

With the quickness he casts 2 charms per combat round at +5 penetration. This costs 10 enc, the boots give 4 reinvig. So in the first 17 combat rounds he casts 34 charm spells. He then slows down somewhat due to being over 100 enc.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

Since people are asking about Faerun, I might as well let out that I finished province borders on the new Dom3 one yesterday. Now I need to add the white dots and then create the actual map file. It's going to be huge, much bigger than the original Faerun 424 map for Dom2 and much better looking too. I'll make a smaller version later. Couple of weeks for the first one to come out, more time for the smaller version.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

Ohh, I haven't paid attention to that, thought it would be Hydra skin armor or whatever. I better get my eyes checked.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

Excellent Edi, look forward to seeing it.

Just downloaded Twans Greyhawk, should amuse me till then.

Did the majority of my roleplaying in Greyhawk, so should bring back many good memories.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

Very much looking forward to it EDI, my favorite map by far. More specials!

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

Since everyone is going off topic I may as well join in. Has a game ever been
taken to the end on a 400+ province map? I would love a smaller Faerun map.
The only time I tried the original one, half the players were stalling one
turn out of two by the time the first wars started. Once I destroyed my first
opponent, and bloodied the second one's nose, I lost interest myself. I think
I had 45+ provinces and the leader was STILL growing unopposed, having not met a
human player yet.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

Yep, Calmon won a game (Fearun MA PBEM) on the big Faerun map not so long ago. The game lasted 75'ish turns, and was won by acquiring 30/46? VP provinces.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

Why do I read this and think of a viking saying:"Spam, spam, spam, spam...."? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

34 charms eh? I need to work on my hero building some more methinks. That's quite impressive.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

I thought you couldn't double cast any spells with quickness in Dom3, but I guess that excludes items if you get 34charms in 17turns.

So with quickness you can cast 2 Fireballs or 2 Incinerates or 2 Holy Pyres or 2 Falling Frosts per turn if you forged the items...

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the venerable Bane? So cheap, so easy.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

But with banelords being only a little more expensive than regular banes they are generally more efficent.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

You can use an item which casts a spell (Fireball Wand, Staff of Numbness, etc) twice with quickness.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

It depends on what the chassis is for. I like spectral mages and black servants. Tartarians are pretty good for higher end. Out of nation specific, Niefel Jarls are the obvious choice. Lanka's are good too. Even something as fragile as eagle king can be made into a reasonable thug http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

Gift of Reason opens up some interesting Thug options....

But yeah, to echo the previous posters, the best non-unique Thugs for me are:

• Bane Lords,
• Banes,
• Wraith Lords,
• Troll Kings (land or sea!),
• Firbolgs, and
• Tartarians

I've never tried a Black Servant Thug, though it's on my To-Do list for the next game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

I have a really great thug chassis that has been overlooked, but I'm in the middle of a couple of MP games right now, and I'd rather it be a surprise http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif So, when the game's over, I'll post about it on this thread.

Re: Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]
 

What about gear for Jotunheim?

Not Neifel Jarls, but regular Godes, Jarls and Skratti?
They should be thuggable, especially since the priests can self-bless.

Particularly Death and Nature items, since I've got lots of those gems.