Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

I posted this rambling thought as a reply in the map list thread and then realized it was OT there, so:

To echo an earlier point in that thread (about how the rate of feedback on nation mods may not reflect how much many players enjoy and appreciate them, and not just because we don't bother to post all our thoughts), but from my own (perhaps rare) perspective, I love nation mods (and maps too, and other kinds of mods), and I love trying them out and playing with them both as my own nation and as opponents, but it takes me a long time to play a Dominions game, and after years of playing this game series, I still enjoy the stock nations also (there are still some stock nations I haven't played more than a few turns as even though I am interested and for example I just started an MA Ulm game to test something and got hooked for a while, I have many single-player games going on at once which I return to from time to time, etc), so it's hard to study all of the new nations in detail and give copious feedback, but I am putting them to use.

PvK

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

I give feedback on stuff I try out, or happen to research for some purpose. I've not tried out nation mods, given all of the projects I've got going on. Nor have I tried user-made maps for the same reason.

I would like to remind people that feedback is vital for more of the modded stuff and maps coming out, because otherwise it is too easy to lose interest in making them and improving upon the things already made. Even if it's just a quick thanks or a line or two about the stuff you find interesting and like, it makes a huge difference.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

It can be very frustrating, the lack of feedback. I've been lucky to get some very useful feedback with a few of my projects, but there are nations in here that for whatever reason have basically gotten no feedback. I don't think that's because people aren't playing them,.. although it might be that people download them then forget about them. Dom3 doesn't really lend itself to quick games.

This subforum is mostly populated by people who are busy working on their own stuff too, so often we don't have much time to test out other people's nations. A thread or two like this was made in the main forum and a few people responded,... but,.. well it's a bit disheartening that no-one seems /that/ interested in nation mods.

C'est la vie.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

Yes, very good points. It really helps to know people are out there enjoying the mods, and to hear about what they thought.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

I play nations mods and usaly only give feedback when it's asked for.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

I reckon most people want some, even if they aren't specifically asking for it.

Anyway, it's a good way to improve the quality of the mods you play with - helping refine them.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

I never know how to respond to people thanking me. I prefer criticism or suggestions instead http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

THANKYOU AMOS http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

I find it strange that the epic heroes mod gets so much buzz compared with all the other mods.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

"I find it strange that the epic heroes mod gets so much buzz compared with all the other mods."

I am not a modder, and personally had no desire to create one, and likely will never do another. The reason I did Epic Heroes is because i like to roleplay and I wanted a hero to start the game with, to build up, and focus my efforts around.

Many people love the idea of a hero, which is why worthy heroes is so popular. Epic Heroes goes a step further, and allows a player to to have a set hero at the start.

The nation mods, no matter how good they are, suffer from the stigma of having to compete with tons of races included in the vanilla game already, plus dozens more modded.

Most people do not have time to play the races included in the base game, much less try the new ones. I certainly appreciate the nation mods, but I have had limited time to try them.

Mods that add options to the existing game, like worthy heroes, reduced old age, no independents, conceptual balance, etc. I think will always have a bit more buzz because they can be added as an option to the vanilla game.

And some people, actually many people, have favorite races they play over and over. They do not even try many of the base races that come with the game-much less modded races.

In sum, I think the modded races are awesome. But i think the feedback on those mods will, unfortunately, always have less interest than mods that add features to the existing game.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

Mine are mostly maps but I get really irritated to find out that one of my maps is broken and has been for many many months with no one telling me.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

To be fair Gandalf, the maps of yours that I have are HUUUUUUGE and it can be really hard to spot a bug in them.

Love your maps by the way.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

I have come to the same conclusion as Xietor. If you want to mod for the community it is better to do something other than nations. It is why I don't release nations anymore. The effort is not worth it in the long run because hardly anyone downloads the nations. Mods that affect the entire game seem to be, and will continue to be more popular.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

I at least intend to do what I can to encourage the use of mod nations in MP games - and having my own server now will help with that. I think so many of the mod nations coming out are so exciting, its well worth supporting them and taking an interest in them.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

I think modded nations is for people who are tired of the game vanilla. Ive played this game almost daily for a year longer than most of the people here, and Im still not to that point.

But, instead of a balanced new nation Id much rather see some unbalanced built for great AI nations.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

I don't play too many nation mods because I've not even tried out all of the Dom2 ones yet, let alone the Dom3 nations. But the really wacky/cool mods I absolutely have to try, such as the insects one. I don't want to discourage anyone from making nation mods, though! They're pretty enjoyable, but I feel like I spend my time better learning the vanilla nations for multiplayer practice. The Epic Heroes mod and the Black Tome mods are neat because of their potential use in multiplayer. I'm also trying out global mods like the No Indies mod for increasing difficulty... it seems to work so far!

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

I think I said this on another thread, but my main problem with nation mods is that the "stock" Dom3 nations offer so much variety. There's really very little reason for me to play a nation mod until I exhaust the unmodded game, which will take a very long time....

Except for Ulm Reborn, which is just cool. Very, very cool. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

What about if the mod brought something which was already familiar to the game?

I'm making a mod based on the Tharoon from SSI's warwind game and I made one based on Exile by Spiderweb. Those aren't that familiar to people.

However warhammer or Lord of the Rings is, so would people be interested in seeing nations based on these in the game? I don't much like LOTR but I could do warhammer nations no problem, provided there's some interest (other than my own).

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

A problem with mods "based on" is that if you artist them yourself then you get more criticism than usual. And if you use the game graphics then you have to have permission.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

Well you couldn't really use graphics from warhammer,.. but I get what you mean. I'm no artist, but I could graphic up a pretty nice looking Warhammer army in dom3 no problem.

If I did, I think I'd probably start with something that has a very clear playstyle and is different from the national mods we've had so far, such as Skaven. Actually a lot of the warhammer skaven units would transfer very well to dom3, such as poison wind globadiers or warpfire throwers. Stuff like the ratling gun and jezzails would be left out.

Rudimentary army list in dom3 would be like,...

UNITS

Skaven Slave
Clanrat (spear and shield, sword and shield)
Gutter Runner (shuriken, net and baneblade)
Stormvermin (black fur, halberd)
Council Guard (white fur, sacred stormvermin)
Poison wind globadier (AN poison missiles, str range)
Warpfire thrower (like fire drake breath)

LEADERS

Chieftan
Assassin
Warlord
Packmaster (spawns/calls rats etc)
Master Breeder (calls rat ogres)
Warlock (FDE)
Warlock Engineer (FDE)
Grey Seer (sacred, DS mostly, some FE)
Screaming Bell (Grey seer on big bell carrying juggernaut type thing, spreads dom, H3 priest in addition to seer powers)

SUMMONS/SPAWNS
Rat swarms
Giant Rats
Rat Ogres

I'm sure there's some other stuff, like the doomwheel and whatnot that I've missed out. Point is warhammer armies translate very well and almost directly to dominions - there's plenty of source graphics to get inspiration from, you can pretty much convert the stats over to dom3 without much thought,... hey you even get 5 or so heroes premade for each nation.

Well it's easier than making an entirely new nation and maybe people would enjoy it more. I know I'd enjoy playing with all the warhammer armies.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

Recruitable Dom spreading commanders? That's mighty overpowered. There's a reason why the juggernaut is so high up in construction that you have to research alot to get it, you know... Otherwise, that nation sounds quite interesting ("rat ogres"? awesome!), although I don't know any Warhammer.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

It would either be very expensive, or possibly a summon. Either way I'd make sure it was balanced,.. IF I did the nation.

What I'd really like is someone interested in warhammer to help me with the coding - at the moment I'm into making graphics, but the coding of nations and units is getting to be a bit of a headache. Actually that goes for a few of my mods - a helping hand would not go amiss :]

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

I think warhammer nations would be a bit... flat, somehow, compared to dominions nations. I don't quite know what I mean, but I think there's a reason that Kristoffer avoided the typical fantasy stereotypes, and why the nations in dominions seem so interesting.

I think that's also the reason that I think I like, say, Ulm Reborn and Arga Dis a good deal more than Sylvania and Teutanion. They just feel much more dominions-y.

I guess the difference is perhaps links to real-world cultures? I'm not sure. If you could come up with a dominions-style nation consisting of rat-men though, that might well be awesome. It could even draw on warhammer for many of the units, but would have a different feel. Exactly what culture you might base a ratmen nation on though, I'm not sure. I'm sure there are plenty of very interesting possibilities though.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

I see what you mean; warhammer is a pure fantasy setting which draws a lot less from the fascinating history of cultures worldwide,... yet I have always been partial to the setting. As much as I like the 'dominions way', I think there's something to be said for some gritty 'arcade' fantasy.

I'd rewrite things the same way I did for Avernum - make sure there's a credible fit with the dominions world if at all possible, but not change too much. Zepath's mods, for instance, were clearly very much influenced by warhammer, yet were different enough that they don't quite satisfy my urge to see the Warhammer Orcs, Skaven, Elves etc I know well slapping each other around in the Dom3 engine.

But I do want to hear from more people about this - perhaps Warhammer is not too popular amongst the Dom crowd.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

I love Warhammer and I'd really love to see Warhammer stuff modded to Dominions.
I even writted down some projects myself, but never got around to actually making them...

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

WAAAAUUUGGGHHHHHH!!!! (A little over the top?)

I actually enjoy Zepath's Warhammer inspired mods BECAUSE they differ from DOM 3's mythology inspired nations. I would love a Skaven-based nation or, dare I hope it, a Greenskin nation.

WAAAAAUUUUUGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

I agree about the hugeness of the content available in Dominions. For instance, I'm really intrigued by the idea of importing Master of Magic units (was that Foodstamp's project?), but I haven't downloaded the mod, just appreciated the screenshots, because I'm so overwhelmed just playing with the three or four nations I've tried so far in vanilla. (EA C'tis, Helheim, LA Agartha, and that's basically it.) On the other hand, there's no reason I can't grab some mod nations for my AI opponents and maybe I should give that a try some time.

A single game can occupy me for weeks or months. Dominions is a BIG game.

-Max

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

I think this idea of importing content is sound. I'd be more likely to download and use a mod nation (for myself or the AI) if I already had some kind of emotional connection to the nation. I'd LOVE to use a mod based on any of the following:

* Malazan Book of the Fallen (I've got a bare-bones version that I made for the T'lan Imass)
* David Eddings' Belgariad (Angaraks, Alorns, Arends, Nyissans, Tolnedrans, etc.)
* Raymond E. Feist's Riftwar and/or Serpentwar series. (Kelewan, the Kingdom of the Isles, the Saaur, Dreadlords)
* Something from Terry Pratchett's Discworld. Maybe not a nation, but perhaps a couple of heroes or summons, or a poptype if poptype modding becomes possible.

To a certain extent, balance takes a backseat to flavor with some of these, especially the "bad guy" nations. If the Angarak units are slightly too cheap, well, evil Angarak hordes traditionally outnumber the good guys anyway.

Alternatively, I'd love to read a book based on one of the mods in this forum. But it's probably easier to go the other direction. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

-Max

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

I would love to play some warhammer mods. Skaven in particular. It was a while since I played WFB, but I still have a Dark Elf army somewhere. Screaming bell could be a national construct much like the juggernaut.

I think I personally prefer cliché-mods and rip-off-mods, since I can get into them quickly and get a grip. Since I do not play very much dom3 nowdays I would probably not give myself time to get into an entirely new nation, i.e. I'm lazy when it comes to dom3 playing.

If I were to play seriously and with other players I would probably prefer a game with new ones, if balanced that is.

A lotr mod would be great. During the development of Dom PPP a friend made a six player (3 vs 3) scenario on a homemade middle earth map. It was a very fun, but not fully balanced game. It was unmodded, but fun anyway. Ermor was placed in Mordor, Jotun in Isengard, Vanheim in Lorien and Rivendell, Ulm in Gondor and Man in Rohan. Not sure who the last one was. Abysia as Haradrim perhaps.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

Yeah, maybe I'm coming round. Go skaven!

I reckon (without having put much thought in) they might be the most interesting Warhammer nation to do. Orcs and goblins are cool too, but my need for them was covered by Vaettiheim. The elves and Bretonnians are basically already done by Sylvania and Teutanion respectively. The undead races are kind of covered already. Lizardmen are a bit like C'tis. I suppose there's dwarves and dark elves as well, but they're not as interestingly different as skaven.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

Well in that case I'll stick it on my to-do list and have a quick go at graphics in the next hour or so, see how viable it is.

Couple of additions to the above army list - Plague Monks and Plague Priests with poison res, plus poison cloud producing censor bearers. Also the Verminlord Greater Daemon as a high end national summon. It's amazing how well 90% of warhammer stuff actually fits in dom3.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

Oh and re: other warhammer nations - I honestly don't see myself getting tired of dom3 for a good few years, especially if I can find a few cool folk to have the odd pbem game with, such as llama. So in the due course of time I could end up making all the sides from warhammer - for me doing the graphics is as relaxing as painting the miniatures.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

Attached (if it works) is a first draft of a clanrat. I wanted to get the general shape of the thing looking right before I did anything fancy, so it's a bit rough looking. Warhammer models are sort of cartoony and distorted, so I had to compensate, imagine what a 'dom3 Skaven' would look like. I based it upon the classic plastic model clanrats that tended to be used in droves.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

That is _awesome_ Sombre!

*llamabeast is excited*

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

Just for kicks I made a very quick template for gutter runner and assassin, just by draping the clanrat I made in a quick tatty robe and repositioning him slightly.

It's amazingly effective, just dropping a robe on something ;]

Please do bear in mind this stuff is all rough work and hopefully I'll be able to clean it up if I were to release it as final - I'm just blitzing through different things seeing how hard skaven would be.

Anyway, image should be attached.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

Ok, ok, LAST ONE TONIGHT, I promise ;]

Here's a poison wind globadier I knocked up. Again, it's a rough draft if you will.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

Sweet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif They are very cool. I like the puffs of gas from the globadier's backpack.

Maybe you should start a new skaven thread Sombre.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

I will do this weekend. I have other things planned to do before the skaven mod, but I am finding it hard to resist doing graphics for them - plenty of source material (unlike warwind) and so on.

I just had a thought for the warpfire thrower as well - if it gets hit it switches to a temp form called 'Damaged warpfire thrower', becomes immobile and gains a high power heat aura which should burn the skaven/enemies who happen to be near. It also gets a precision reduction to about 1 or so - if it fires the shot could fly pretty much anywhere. Represents how very risky skaven contraptions are. Similarly the globardiers would emit weak poison clouds (making stronger ones on impact with their thrown globes) but only be 50% immune to poison.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

I like your ideas a lot. The poison cloud globadiers would take some thought to get working well though - they might easily be doomed to die in any battle that lasted more than a turn or two.

I don't suppose you could have them explode in a poison cloud when they die? I'm thinking probably not. Or you could have their first form in battle be a 4hp 'Composed globadier' (obviously you need a better name!) who has his globes well under control, but once he gets hit he goes a bit careless (changes to his alternate form) and starts waving them around and leaking poison gas. Well, it's a thought at least. An unfortunate side effect of this rather bizarre method would be that they'd all effectively have two lives, like jaguar warriors or skin shifters, which doesn't really make sense.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

Cool sprites. But if you post dark images it is better to post them on grey background.

Re: Rate of feedback on nation mods
 

I would have, but the knife and net on the gutter runner are grey. Maybe they'd still show up. I'll see with a later preview.

Re: Rant of feedback on nation mods Post 1
 

Honestly? I try very hard *not* to give a lot of feedback, just because I have so many ideas of my own, and ways of looking at things in my head that, if you ask me for suggestions, most of the time I'll just end up telling you how to create an entirely different nation from what you had in mind.
I've done it before, and I'll probably end up doing it again, but I really try to avoid it because it's obnoxious and impolite-and really serves little purpose other than to confuse people.

If I see something I like-and the mods here are absolutely fantastic-I will try to say something, *if* I see something specific that I can compliment on without rambling on about it (like I am now). At the same time, there are mods I like just because they fit my own style and ideas. For instance, Amos's mods are absolutely professional, works of art, BUT they're not balanced for vanilla (or so he says) so they're not ones I pay the most attention to right now, because I'm still trying to learn the game.

I have favorite mods (Amos's among them, even though I don't use them that often), but that's just my opinion. I haven't seen any truly lousy mods.

The worst one I've seen was Uh-nu-buh's Hive mod, and that was very clearly and obviously a work in progress that he never completed, and I liked the concepts and ideas behind it so much that I redid the artwork for it and asked his permission to complete it and release it as a finished product. He hasn't answered me back about that, and it's been about a month, so I am going to assume he doesn't care and release it under his name when I get a chance.

So, yes, everyone is doing brilliantly. I am very *very* appreciative of the hard work that's been put into the mods-and I'd really like to see them taken a little more seriously than they sometimes seem to be. I only compliment sparingly because I don't want to seem to be judging some mods as better than others-mind you, some *are* better, but that's like judging one gift as better than another because one's more expensive.

All the mods are gifts, and I recognise that.

I don't know if this is true, but I believe some of the mods from Dom2 were incorporated into the Dom3 game by the Devs? I think that's the right attitude and direction.

The Devs *do* put in a lot of work on the nations they release, and it's wonderful that they do-we wouldn't be here without them-but atleast some of the mods have had just as much, or even more, work put into them, because they're individual labors of love compared to the labor-as a whole-that is Dom3.
It's an effort on a smaller scale, but one that we as a community can be proud of for each other and for ourselves.

Re: Rant of feedback on nation mods Post 2
 

I wanted to break this up because I have so much to say on this subject, and it was getting hard to read.

Foodstamp, Sombre, I download all your mods. Infact, Haida would be one of the first nations I'd like to see added to Dom4 as official, off the top of my head. Please continue to make mods, because they're awesome, and I use them all the time.

This is the part where I rant about nations and my ideas/suggestions for them-even though I explicitly said I wouldn't. It's a weakness and a character flaw, so please forgive me or atleast feel free to ignore me.

Skaven's a terrific idea. I think you could have an absolutely, Dominion-ey, credible nation based on rat-men. I think anyone wanting to transform the basic Warhammer-style Skaven into a Dominions nation could benefit greatly from reading James Herbert's Rats trilogy-The Rats, Lair, and Domain (and the graphic novel based on them-The City.)

There's rat-soldiers, giant black rats, truly disgusting and horrifying mother rats, and rat zombies. It's fun stuff.

You could even include the concept of the "Rat King" (try Wiki) and China Meiville's novel of the same name.

For some reason, don't ask me why, I'd really like to see a kind of Asian riverboat pirate rat-man with a head-band weilding twin katanas. Don't ask me why, I can't explain myself other than to suggest it's a flashback from TMNT.

Anyway, as you can see, I'm a fanatical freak when it comes to nation mods. I love them and can't get enough. I'm currently working on like 15 and none of them are getting done, because I don't have the time to work on them, and I honestly don't have the time to download/play every single nation mod right now-but I will, eventually.

So, please keep making them, if only to keep me off medication http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif And please, please, please update them for 3.08 and later patches! If you don't, then I don't know if they're going to work for me or not, and my computer's twitchy as it is.

And, if anyone's crazy or bored enough (both preferrably) to want to make a nation based on one of my ideas, please feel free to contact me. I'm also quite willing to help others make their own-I just again may not have the time.

Finally (you guessed it-when I have the time) I'm planning on creating, or atleast helping/encouraging the creation of, a massive multi-player mod, based on Perpetuality, which incorporates several (atleast 10, I'd like 21) nation mods into it, as well as all the vanilla mods of every era, run on the "little artizanal map"-itself a mod-of 1200+ provinces.

Hopefully, that will help spread the word and familiarize people with the nation mods that are out there, and how they work, compared to the vanilla nations.

Re: Rant of feedback on nation mods Post 2
 

Hello, in case someone is curious, here is my own project for a skaven army.
Feel free to steal from it if you like something, or ignore.
I'm still learning to mod myself.

Skaven
Dominion effect:scrying(like Arcoscephale) to represent their spying ability
Units:
all skaven units have lower morale and higher speed compared to humans. they also have nightsight(50) and poison resistance(25)

skaven slaves(staff, sling)
clanrats(sword, shield, pillage bonus(2))
clanrats(spear, shield, pillage bonus(2))
stormvermin(halberd, armour, higher morale)
gutter runners(stealth, throwing stars, two blades, poison)
plague monks(poison immune, high morale, more hitpoints, start *diseased*)
censer bearers(as above plus sorrounded by a poison cloud)
giant rats(requires magic leadership, small)
rat ogres(requires magic leadership, large and causes fear)
jezzails(fires every 3 turns, long range and armour pierce)
warpfire thrower(flame attack, vulnerable to fire, explodes on death)
poison wind globardier(poison grenades a'la C'tis slingers)

Leaders:
clan leader(leadership 40)
stormvermin leader(leadership 80)
packmaster(leadership 40, magic leadership, summons giant rats)
assassin(leadership 10, blades, stars and poison, stealth and assasination)
master assasin(leadership 40, blades, stars and poison, stealth and assassination, high stats)
warlock engineer(weak mage, armed with a pistol, leadership 40)
plague priest(starts *diseased*, berserk, stealth(!), leadership 40)
grey seer(strong mage, weak priest)

Doomwheel, Doombell and the Vermin Lord would be national summons, with the Doomwheel and Doombell requiring paths possesed by warlock engineers(maybe they'd require boosting?)