Arcane Nexus
 

Is not the Arcane Nexus spell overpowered?

I would feel guilty casting it in a multiplayer game. It seems if you are able to hold it without being dispelled for at least 2 turns, you have a definite win.

How much much astral gems per turn could a nation on average get from that spell?

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

It is generally considered the most powerful global spell in the game(i would probably put forge of the ancients at second) in all but the smallest games. With so much magic flying around late game having it up for even a single turn will probably net you some profit and the only real disadvantage in multiplayer is that it pretty much lights you up as the number one target for most nations.

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

I think spells like Arcane Nexus are needed to bring a end to long games.

Really, lvl 9 spells should be extremly powerful.

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

Yes lvl 9 spells should be powerfull, but Arcane Nexus makes all other 9th level spells seem small.

Once you case Arcane Nexus, you would have the gems to dispel any other global enchantment out there, and you control all the globals. Arcane Nexus would be balanced with spells utterdark, or Natures Bounty, if the gems that you get from Arcane Nexus weren't the same ones you can use to dispel other enchanments.

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

I would take gift of natures bounty any day over forge of the ancients (atleast if im using a decent dominion value). Arcane nexus is indeed absurdly good, but the other nations tend to alliance themselves against you.

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

I would maybe consider the gift better at 8 dominion or higher but, particularly if you have diverse magic, the forge is a very, very powerful global(research items, boosters, spell casting items, clams and of course equipping SCs. The bonus magic levels for forging also help alot)

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

I only play in big games - an personally I think AN is overpowered. It simply doesn't scale well and overshadows everything else. It's biggest problem is that in big games all you need to do is get it up for a couple turns and you have enough pearls to cast it again if it is dispelled. When the game devolves into simply keeping one specific spell up or bringing it down it isn't much fun.

Forge of the Ancients is also overpowered IMHO, but not to the game crippling extent that AN is.

P.S. The spell is also bugged in that you get pearls for everything forged/cast on the first turn you cast it.

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

I would really, really hate to lose such great spells as the forge of ancients and arcane nexus.

I think if globals are changed to give the effect the turn after being put up instead of the same turn. This gives a extra turn to dispel or replace arcane nexus.

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

Good idea, Megablob.

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

I disagree that Forge of the Ancients is particularly over-powered, since it's been seriously nerfed in Dom3 (don't think the CB mod could have changed it). When it boosted every magic path, regardless of whether or not the mage had anything in it, it was very powerful, allowing nations access to multi-path items they normally couldn't get.

But now, it simply an F1 mage to forge F2 items, as opposed to being able to forge F2D1 items (for example). Having casted it in a recent game, I was underwhelmed - yes, you forge things for half price, but are still very limitted in what you can forge, if playing a nation without much of a range in magic paths.

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

I can see that to a certain extent if you're playing severely limited in paths, but for multi-path nations its HUGE. Tien Chi is a good example, lots of low level paths (1,2,3's to 2,3,4's) Couple boosters and you have capability of pretty much any item in the game at half cost.

I doubt its worth casting when limited to 1 or 2 paths, but 3 or 4 or a rainbow pretender and it definitely is... if you survive the repercussions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

It still doesn't change the fact that AN is a "game over" spell if it stays up - not a fun mechanic.

Oh I don't think it should be removed... but either reducing the effect to say %25 or upping the pearl cost to 300 would help a lot.

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

Or set a roof for the income it can give. It costs 150 to cast, cap it at 100+2d6oe each turn? Then it's no stronger than... utterdark.

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

Well, granted I haven't played a huge number of MP games, but I've yet to see it cast by someone who wasn't already very likely going to win anyway. I agree it's a critical bug that you get gems the first turn, but if it were changed so that there was a chance to dispel it before it payed out it then its fine. If you can keep it up despite the fact that you've basically declared war on everybody else in the game you deserve to win.

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

I'm in the "it's okay" camp, I think. It's obviously incredibly powerful, but if you can maintain it for a long time against the rest of the world's combined gem income (and remember, it costs 150 to cast and 30 to dispel) either you've got them way out-powered or they're not very smart, and in either case you're probably going to win. Or, they've got better things to spend their gems on, in which case maybe you won't win...

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

You're confusing self-interest with common interest. Often players who are already getting beat up or who don't stand a chance at winning won't bother to help out. Why should they care? So in reality only a very select few nations who have a shot at winning care. Their combined pearl income is often less than the pearl income of the AN caster.

I dunno, seems like in the games I've lasted until the end AN always is the clincher that seals it. I'm just tired of participating in AN-dispel pacts that never seem to work. It just gets old and lame after awhile.

Id rather the game be decided by a climatic battle(s) then just see everyone's hands go up in the air and leave once the first dispel for AN fails. Feels cheesy.

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

True the fix would help, but I don't think it would stop AN from still being the "Game Ender" for lots of games. I do agree the leader usually casts it - but I'd rather at least give the second and third place players a shot at beating the leader rather than just have them give up because hope is lost....

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

How about the caster of the Arcane Nexus gets a horror mark plus chance of horror attack every time gems roll in, the strength of which depends on the number of incoming gems? Like a private little AC just for the caster. It's not even totally unthematic, maybe the horrors are attracted by the spawning of the gems or something.

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

Arcane Nexus should cost at least 300 gems or higher in order to cast. And it is unfair that only astral gems can dispel it. What is a nation like Abysia to do?

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

Hmm, but the pacts I've participated in stressed not using magic that contributes to the nexus. So if there was a one-turn delay, and people mostly obeyed that pact, then the caster would just be gaining a delay in enemy mage/gem use. No?

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

What PvK said. And, only a ludicrously huge, ludicrously late game would enable a caster to recoup the cost of the Nexus in one turn. Actually, such a game often would not offer the opportunity to cast the Nexus for a mere 150 gems anyway; the global spots would probably be full of well-buffed spells already. If everyone's farting around, and somebody saves up enough pearls to pull off a surprise well-buffed nexus, and other powerful players who have lots of gems chose to use them as normal rather than contributing them to a dispel (or at the very least holding off until some more altruistic soul dispels it), well...
And what can Abysia do? Assassinate or fry the caster, perhaps?

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

I would contend that most people in the game that don't really have a shot at winning won't participate in this pact seriously and will, at most, somewhat limit their spending. Why should they care? Also - if you are in a life-death struggle you are going to cast things to stay alive.

I've also seen players with lots of horded pearls not really contribute many, wait until the dispel is done and simply recast AN for themselves.

It's also very easy to skim pearls off the top if you are doing the casting (there is no way to prove a player spent x amount of pearls). The dispeller can also use everyone's pearls to cast AN for himself, simply changing the target.

Finally if the dispel fails, and the casting nation is in a good position, it's pretty much game over...

All these are reasons why I won't bother contributing to AN dispels unless I know and trust the caster and somehow can insure that everyone with any power contributes equally. It's a pain in the ***.

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

I only play in large games usually with every nation in play for the era (18-21) on medium maps (15 prov a player). I wouldn't call it "ludicrous"...

AN is only cast in the late game and when it does it usually pulls in about 150-250 pearls a turn at least.

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

Sounds like you have a problem with the players rather than the spell.
Why bother with the dispel then? Presumably, if those nations interested really do have a chance at winning then it would represent a serious military bloc. A combined war pact would be a better idea, until either the casting player was defeated or the spell was removed. Unless the power balance is way out of whack, then even the power of AN won't be sufficient against such an alliance.
Should be easier to sell to the other players too. Presumably those in with a chance of winning will be fairly close in power (at least in their own heads). You can appeal to their sense of competition - point out that the lands thus captured may be the edge they need to become dominant. Just make sure the only one who's going to be in that position when the dust settles is yourself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

OK, "ludicrous" maybe implies more of a judgment than I meant to make. How about "pretty much the biggest possible games"? Anyway, are those late-large-game ANs cast for 150 pearls, or are they buffed? The few times I've actually seen AN cast (all back in Dom2) it was either cast at really high strength, or else cast at low strength and allowed to survive for several turns and then recast at really high strength. One game turned into a big AN war, with me and one other player allied against the third (dominant) player - we eventually managed to dispel his 999-gem AN and put up one of our own in the same turn (at a cost of about 1900 pearls). I think the three of us maybe decided at that point that the game was silly, though, as the other guy had basically won anyway. The other game, AN was put up by Pythium; he kept it for a while, then it was taken by Ermor. Pythium tried to take it back with 700-some gems (all he had saved) but failed - Ermor had used more to cast it, thanks to massive clamhoarding. Pythium was in a fairly strong position, but it would have been shocking to see them win; Ermor was one of the strongest players, especially after many turns with the Nexus up, but was probably not the strongest player and in fact was suffering some pretty serious losses when we called the game on account of Dom3.
I vaguely remember seeing it in one other game, but if so, I don't think it changed the course of the game in a significant way.

For the Nexus to be pulling in 250 gems per turn, wouldn't that mean that people were spending 1000 non-astral gems per turn? Isn't that an awful lot? Like, the entire gem income from a fully-site-searched 300-province map? People don't restrict their spending when the Nexus goes up? I don't know. My experience obviously is limited, but it's always seemed to me to be a spell that either confirms something that everyone knew anyway or else a spell that is viciously fought over, draining lots of resources from everyone involved in the fighting, with benefits (considering that resource drain) not out of line for its cost and research and path requirements.
Also, keep in mind that anyone can dispel a global, simply by casting another one with more buff-gems and getting lucky on a 1/5 chance. I don't generally think this is a good idea, as spending hundreds of gems on a 1/5 chance when your enemy has the Nexus up seems kind of counterproductive, but if you get truly desperate it could work. It would still probably make more sense to spend those hundreds of gems blasting the holy hell out of the caster of the Nexus...

Anyway, that's one small man's opinion. Cheers!

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

I'm not sure I understand this comment. Are you refuting my observations that players do generally act like that... or telling me I need to play with more egalitarian players?

That seems to be the default for when AN is cast. But I have to disagree with your assumption - the power of the AN is usually enough to fight off everyone combined. Remember it's usually only cast by players fully aware that everyone will attack them... so only someone in the top three will usually even try it and they will be ready. And by this time he might only have one or two fronts to worry about - a player across the map can't reach him easily.

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

I fully agree with Velusion. "Game Ender" spells ruin the fun of a game. You can argue till the end of time about whether it should be able to be dispelled or what the proper cost is. Really none of it matters though because being in the "Dispel this or lose the game" position is always massively un-fun and disappointing. Why would anyone want to play a game when faced with a situation like that?

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

Thanks Ironhawk.

I guess I'll say my final piece about AN:

1. It is much, much more powerful than most other 9th level spells (hence unbalanced).
2. It scales badly depending on game size.
3. Because it is so powerful it can overshadow everything else often resulting in unfun conclusions to games.

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

Bit of both :lol:

The problem is what you're offering to the player. Dispelling AN at that point means little to those who are basically trying to hang on. Offering them provinces on the other hand might allow them back into the game.
It also plays into your own hands, since ideally the provinces of the caster will end up in multiple player's hands. The last thing you want is to replace one superpower with another...
If there's such a large gap between the top three players then the caster has pretty much already won, AN is simply speeding up the endgame.
There's ways around it should it come to that. They don't necessarily need to attack over the border either - summoning spells which attack provinces and the like are equally useful, despite feeding AN. The idea is to pressure the caster on all fronts to prevent them forming a concentrated defence rather than to seriously damage him. Ideally, you just want them to distract him enough to make your own conquest easier (thus placing you in the game winning position http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif )

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

Velusion:-

There is a really easy solution, do what you did in perpetuality, if you don't like Arcane Nexus ban it from the games you host. If players know when they start a game, no problem. Same should have been done with Helheim when it was overpowered, hosts should have simply banned it from MP.

This is much better then nerfing the spell or nation or whatever for everyone. The majority of Dominions players only play SP anyway, so its very unfair to nerf, remove parts of the game for them.

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

I seriously doubt toning Arcan Nexus down would spoil the fun for any SP gamers. For one thing they can just make a mod un-nerfing it - unlike MP gamers they don't have the difficulty of getting everyone to agree, they can just change what they like.

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

The problems with dispelling the AN are that you benefit from the dispel, even if you dont contribute pearls so people tend not to cooperate, to get the bigger gain out of it. its a classical Prisoner's Dilemma .
But as done in Radiance, if you dont dispel the Arcane Nexus but take it over and give everyone that paid interest, it's a way that works. (if people have gain from their investment, they will do it)

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

Actually it´s a public goods game, a prisoner´s dilemma usually only has 2 players. Additionally you are arguably still better off dispelling the global on your own even if your partners don´t help instead of doing nothing at all, which is not analogous to the prisoner`s dilemma.

As for arcane nexus, the only real issue is scaling, in a game with two players, the spell is not much better than a normal gem generating global.
A simply solution would be to tie the maximum amount of pearls you can get to the caster´s astral magic level. Something like (caster level*10) should be pretty well balanced.

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

How about a different approach:

I think the game needs a new spell. Boost Dispel. You can cast it with any gem type. It has no base cost. You select a global and cast it.

If nobody casts a dispel on the global that turn your spell never goes off and you get your gems back. If someone does cast a dispel, 1/2 of the gems you put into your spell are added to the dispel. Anyone who participated in the ritual sees how much everyone else put into it.

Note that you can boost your own dispel.

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

That would be very very cool... is it even possible via spell modding or would it need to be patched in?

Re: Arcane Nexus
 

Yah, but on the other hand I don't see any sinlge players complaining about the spell in the first place. It's not like the AI regularly boosts it's globals, when it actually bothers to cast them. It's swings and roundabouts for multiplayer - you shouldn't have a problem (certainly if this thread is anything to go by) with agreeing to restrict it as long as you announce the fact prior to starting the game.

Of course, a spell similar to Fate of Oedipus to use against AN would be fun too. I'd suggest something which grants the AN caster one horror mark per gem recieved through the AN spell. Should scale nicely.