RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

Firstly, this is the most addicting and therefor most played strategy game I own. I love almost everything about it..... the exception being the $50 price tag per game. It isn't that the game itself isn't worth it, but if you own a previous installment, upgrading to the latest always makes me very reluctant. The changes and additions to the game are excellent, but really, the game itself is only slightly changed.

Because of this, I would wish you'd consider an "upgrade" option. As in, if you can provide a valid serial key (only can be used once of course), you would be charged a reduced rate of only $20 to $30 since a good portion of the game is reused. It would be a major deterrent towards reasons to pirate Dominions 2 & 3 (I admit, I originally downloaded Dom3 since I couldn't bring myself to pay $50 again) as well as greatly increase your revenue as many people are still downloading only version 3.04 (pre-serial blacklists), which means the price reduction might entice them further to purchase the game.

I've loved the entire Dominions series and have been playing since 2004. I wish to purchase Dominions 4 when it comes out, but I won't bring myself to pay again. I really hope you'll at least consider this idea.
(Feel free to flame me, tell me I'm over the line or hell- you could even agree if you want to)

Cheers!

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

On a related note, $50 is a pittance to pay for a game of this quality.

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

I'm not qualified to make business decisions, but FWIW when/if Dominions 4 is released I'll be far more concerned about changes to the UI, AI (strategic and combat), and rules than about the price tag. I'm not rich, but if I can blow 8 bucks occasionally on a 2-hour movie, I can afford to spend 50 bucks on something that will entertain me for months.

Obviously if Shrapnel thinks it would make them more money I'm all for it. Making money is good.

-Max

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

Gooles, that admission of having pirated Dominions just got you in potentially big trouble where participation in these forums is concerned. Expect to be contacted via more private channels really soon.

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

I'm not sure if there's any precedent for this in the gaming world. I own a licensed copy of Civ3, and I didn't get any discount on Civ4. I own both the original Pirates! and the remade Pirates! Gold, but that didn't get me a discount on the new(ish) Pirates! game....

Okay, so Microsoft offers upgrade pricing on their Windows and Office software (and perhaps a few others). But I don't think that any game company offers upgrade pricing. I'm not saying that they can't do it. Obviously, they can. However, I can't think of any game companies who do offer it.

And I think I know why. An operating system costs hundreds of dollars. Microsoft Office also costs hundreds of dollars. Most games (including Dom3) cost about $50. To me, that says the gaming industry runs on lower overhead than Microsoft. If the overhead is lower, then there's less flexibility on pricing. After all, JK & KO have to eat, right?

IANAMBA (I Am Not An MBA), so my analysis could be wrong. In which case, I'll refer you back to MaxWilson's excellent point: $50 is quite a bargain for a game that has as much staying power as Dom3. I have spent a good bit more than that on Civ4 (including buying the expansion), and Dom3 has given me a lot more entertainment for my money. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

Well J and K have other jobs than this that they live off of.
But Shrapnel has to eat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I dont think that Dom3 could have been done as an upgrade. It might seem like small changes but I dont think that any of the files were unchanged so it wouldnt be just a little download to "upgrade" from dom2 to dom3.

I agree though that the price isnt all that much as far as I can see. I buy many games at that price or higher which last maybe a month on my machine. The doms have always laster for years and only get replaced by the next dom.

Gandalf Parker

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

I believe there have been a few games where owning the original netted you a discount on a sequel. It's hard for me to remember the exact titles, but I recall the second Unreal Tournament title (2004?) offered this deal, at least in the UK.

Showing you own a copy of Age of Wonders 2 might also have netted a discount for the sequel Shadow Magic, but that one I'm less sure of.

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

I really, really don't agree with the original poster. $50 for dom2 then $50 for dom3 a few years later is a small price to pay.

I compare computer games to other forms of entertainment and computer games like dominions because of there vast replayability win everytime. Your money partly ensures the continued development of Dominions, if too many people pirate it, no more Dominions ever...

Dom 4 is probably I assume along way off, I would love in the meantime an expansion if Illwinter/Shrapnel was so inclined.

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

I actually got the idea from a game called Wall Street Raider where updates (which are usually major additions to the game, higher res. options, etc) are only $7 as compared to the $20 to originally purchase. It's not that I can't afford the game, it's just other games with much higher costs in production are cheaper to purchase. Upon rethinking it though, I suppose bigger isn't better and that dev. quality is what counts.

I'd also though, like to elaborate on my original statement in that my main concern was that we pay the same amount of money for a game in which many of the game's elements have been recycled from a game I already have paid for.

=/ I'd find it morally asinine to ban me from forums (or worse if much care is truly felt necessary) for admitting I pirated (and then purchased) a game. I often take a try before I buy approach and will defend my stance always (I pirated and purchased Wall Street Raider too for the record). I admire your concern though.

(Sorry for updating so many times)

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

I happen to disagree with the so-called "Try before buy" approach on ethical grounds, especially given the existence of demos and given that Dom3 is not the first but second sequel which is fairly similar to its predecessors.

That aside, given that I'm a moderator here, it is my duty to bring threads like this to the attention of the board administration, who generally happen to take a fairly harsh view of piracy and will therefore likely have words with you if nothing else. I just pointed that out. Given that you bought the game, a ban is not an automatic outcome, unlike in the instances of outright piracy, of which we have had some. All of THOSE people were summarily booted out.

Just so that we are clear on this. I do not set policy and I can't ignore the mod duties.

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

Personally I PREFER it that way. I get really irritated when I like a game and buy the next version only to discover that it has nothing at all to do with the previous game.

And the recycling has little to do with the cost anyway. Just about everything in the game went thru major changes. I dont think that any of the games code, interface, graphics, sound wasnt reworked and upgraded not to mention the tons of new things added. About the only "recycled" thing is the concept of the game which I am very happy they didnt change.

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

meh, I feel like I'm getting mean here, but much of the game is recycled, and my point is that I've already paid for much of this code once.
Specific Changes:
*Outstanding soundtrack
*Main UI was ever-so-slightly changed, new color (though I downloaded a mod to make the UI a nice shade of blue)
*A few cool new pieces of eye candy (light effects, new spells =new spell graphics. New units received new sprites. Oh, and grass.)
*Great new race-specific spells add another feeling of customization
*A major blow to micromanagement with automatic tax adjustment
*(Not particularly fond of this one)Units are now shown in scaled down form to represent an army on a map instead of a scaled sized red square.
*Few new items
*Automatic "hosting" of turns when a turn is ended.
*In exchange for customizing race with "ages" and castle types, you can now play all ages with terrain dependent castles.
*Three new races
*Bug fixes from Dom2
*built in random map generator (which seldom places me in a home province in which you are unable to move out of via land units. Still an excellent feature though.)
*Aging (or at least more obvious)
*New age
*I believe there were new combat tactics options added
*Maybe some changes to multiplayer? Not sure, mostly stick to SP.

Things copied from Dom2 (non-specific for sake of my time):
*Majority of UI
*Combat mechanics
*Couple maps copied.... I think (Mods fix)
*Great majority of spells and their effects (Notably lack of additions to "wish" spell)
*Majority of pretenders (mods fix this again though, especially the one that updates pretenders' sprites that I can't seem to find anymore. If you know where it is, I'd really really appreciate a link to it)
*Sprites for old units
*Majority of the items
*Many special sites
*Arena matches are the same (less graphics, where light effects molest my PC on very high battle gfx setting)
*Nothing interesting added to alchemy
*Score chart & hall of fame almost completely the same (less how score chart works when a nation loses)
*random events for the most part, are the same
*diplomacy (ha.)
*Mercenaries
*Blood slaves

Now, these changes are great. Adding to an already good game only makes it better, but it doesn't make it a new game.

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

Sorry but I was on the beta team and watched a year of upgrading to those "copied" items. Such as combat mechanics, the old maps, pretenders, sprites, items, sites, events, mercs. We put our input in on it and things were changed.

The only ones you mentioned that I dont remember changes on are blood slaves, diplomacy (thank god), alchemy, wish (what in the world would you add to that?)

If you wanted a COMPLETE rewrite then it wouldnt be a new version. It would be a new game.

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

3 new races? I had thought there were more than that.

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

At first I thought you were criticizing the existence of demos, which would be disappointing to me because by the time I really decided to try out Dominions, Dominions 2 (the one I had originally heard of and intended to try) was no longer being sold, just the demo for Dominions 3, so starting with the earlier edition was a no go. Knowing what I now know about the difference between 2 and 3 I'm glad I started with 3. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But, that's not what you were talking about.

-Max

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

Hmmm, maybe Shrapnel should have charged an extra $7 for monthly site-searching in 3.08, and another $7 for the Great Boar of Carnutes and Fomoria, and $7 for the Tuatha? Naah. Illwinter is generous with their free updates--and so I'm not inclined to be stingy in return.

On the other hand, if Illwinter *did* start selling expansion packs, as Megalobob suggests, I probably wouldn't buy them if they were just more nations. The UI/AI improvements are more important to me than the content, and perhaps this is why I feel that Dominions 3 is more than just an "update" of Dominions 2. From what I know about 2, 3 is a lot smarter and more usable.

-Max

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

Yeah, if Illwinter did expansions and they were essentially just new content like spells, nations etc I'd pass on them. I can get plenty of that via mods and modding.

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

I really, really, really don't understand the complaint that Dom3 is just recycled Dom2 plus a little bit. The whole point of sequels is that they should: A) preserve those qualities which made the original game enjoyable, B) eliminate the annoyances of the older versions, and C) add some new stuff for gamers to enjoy. And yes, I put that list in order for a reason.

The most important part of a sequel is to preserve those qualities which made the previous version(s) fun to play. Seriously. Without that, there is no continuity between the versions, and you might as well be playing a new game. Dom3 scores high marks in this category.

The next priority is to eliminate the annoying features of previous versions. For strategy games, the most significant area for improvement is the AI. Another good improvement is to streamline as much micro-management as possible. Whether it's Civ4 or Dom3, a solid sequel will try to eliminate much of the pointless button clicking, slider juggling, and other micro-management tasks which tend to bog down strategy games. When I play Civ4, I want to pretend to be an emperor, not some bureaucrat who is constantly tweaking my citizens for maximum productivity. And when I play Dom3, I want to pretend to be an aspiring god, not some revenue agent who massages the tax rates in every province. Again, Dom3 scores high marks here.

(I might be a bit biased because I never played Dom2, so my experience is straight from Dom1 to Dom3. From my perspective, Dom3 has seriously reduced the micro-management that I was used to suffering....)

Finally, the least important category is new stuff. Why is this category the least important? Because the old stuff was pretty good, or you wouldn't bother playing the sequel! Dom3 inherited a solid foundation of good content from the previous Dominions versions. You liked them, right? So why wouldn't you like more of the same? Still, without some new stuff to savor, the sequel might seem boring, so give us some new stuff! And Dom3 succeeds here, too, with new nations, new ages, the dormant/imprisoned pretender options, nation-specific spells, and more. Also, as others have mentioned, Illwinter keeps coming up with more new stuff in their free patches.

Finally, if you've somehow managed to exhaust the content in Dom3 off-the-shelf ... there are always mods. Gratuitous Plug: Try any of Sombre's nation mods, especially Ulm Reborn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

You're in a minority there, if EA's business is anything to go by http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

The thing is, you pay for the game not the code. One could ask why you should pay full price for any game based, for example, on the Unreal engine if you've already bought Unreal, despite the fact that they may be radically different games. It's not the amount of code which is changed that's important, it's the effect of those changes on the game.

Well, announcing the fact on the publishers forums is rather akin to going around to a house you burgled and trying to sell the owner their possessions back. Can't blame them for being a little annoyed.

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

[1] I think you'll find that BF2124 sold but a fraction of games that BF2 did, and BF2 still has many filled servers, assuming that was what you were referring to. (I'll never understand why people buy new versions of a sports game annually)
[2] **based on Unreal engine
Games that graphically intense require nearly everything to be modified to fit the game's "mood" anyways. As well, companies big enough to have an Unreal engine usually don't use the same engine again (Maybe Unreal 2008, but not the same engine, unless w.o. extreme modification).
[3] Of course... The goods were already sold back. (I'm still awaiting contact from an admin).

<.< I said MAJOR changes. As in, an entirely new aspect to the game, new graphical abilities, etc. (I appreciate the updates devs give though, whilst noting that almost every dev. company does this)

Yeah..... That's kinda my point. New versions usually don't require as much work as new games and the price tag should reflect that.

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

You will then kindly explain games like Thief 2, Thief: Deadly Shadows, Heroes of Might and Magic II, III, IV and V, Might and Magic I, II, III, IV & V, Might and Magic VI, VII & VIII and why all of those cost the full price of a new game despite being in many cases far less new versions of each other than DomPPP, Dom2 and Dom3 are?

Because if you are going to start down this path about whining why the game isn't a complete rewrite from the ground up and thus should not cost full price, I'm going to demand factual evidence to back up your claim that it is an industry wide standard. Especially since these days mere expansion packs often cost the full price of a new game.

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

No, I was refering to the fact that around 60% of their output are generic template games with different graphics. Although if you want to put comparisons on series up, spot the difference between Battle for Middlearth 1 & it's successor. How about the grandaddy of them all, Id's Doom & Doom II.
1. 90% of the code used by most games companies is generated by third party applications. There's actually very little new coding done these days, simply tweaking pre-made scripts to get the right values.
2. Depending on the licence, some companies will actually look specifically to code on an existing engine, simply to ensure they make back the money they spent.
3. GTA III - GTA:SA all use the exact same engine. The only alterations made to the code that couldn't have been done by a mod (given enough time) is the code optimisation. The rest was modular by design.
4. Graphics are hardly a big deal, and as far as coding goes they're usually one of the least time consuming areas. You'd piss more people off by releasing Doms 2 with a new 3D, pixel shaded interface and claiming it was a new game.
Not really. It can take longer to make a minor change to an existing program than it can to start from scratch. With new code, you don't need to worry about breaking the stuff that works, or indeed making sure what you are writing is compatible with something from several years ago.

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

Heehee. Nice concept but that isnt much of a deciding factor. The price needs to reflect what it takes to get us the next version. As far as Im concerned this game is a rare gem in a very limited market.

By the way, I own 5.

Gandalf Parker

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

Hmmmm.... If I didn't know any better, I'd say I'm fairly outnumbered. I could post graphical pictures between two games in a series, show comparisons between hours spent between a new level in Unreal 2008 and a map in Dom3, but, I've no time and you all have valid and logikal reasons which I don't think I'll be able to prove wrong.

In the end, I've realized no matter how much time one puts into something, the end result is what's important. That just because a company spends 4 days installing CAT5 wiring in my house, it doesn't make the installation any better quality.

( BTW Gandalf, why buy 5 copies when you'll only use 1-3? Couldn't you just donate the extra money? =P ) Cheers all!

Edit~ removed comparison paragraph (and sentences relating to it) between dom3 and broad philosophical view that really didn't fit in... at all

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

Unlike mere mortals, Gandalf has the ability to play Dominions 3 on 5 computers at the same time-which he does in various corporate-sponsored charity multi-player games.
Unfortunately, while incredibly gifted, he is poor, and only owns one computer. The other four computers have been generously donated by friends, who retain ownership.

And that's why Gandalf was forced to use his mother's pension money to purchase 5 copies of Dominions 3.

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

On reflection, the difference between Might and magic II, IV, and V, or between Bards Tale I, II, and III, was new content, not a new engine or new rules. (XCom 2, Pac Man 2...) That is, people wanted to keep their old Bards Tales characters intact, in the same universe (imported between games, usually), but with a new storyline. The wargaming equivalent of this is new units and spells. Dominions is also a construction set of sorts, given the modding focus, and construction sets that allow users to create new content (Bards Tale Construction Set, Forgotten Realms Unlimited Adventures) want new content in the form of new commands and options. Illwinter is good about providing both of these kinds of new content, both relative to Dom2 and in patch updates. I've said before that I'm more eager for AI/UI improvements than new content, but given historical precedent it's hard to argue that Dom3 is somehow an update to Dom2 rather than a sequel.

-Max

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

Hmmm Im abit confused by the post. It started out right. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I do have a 5 machine network at home. And I have 2 servers which I host Dom3 games on (one public and one beta). And actually I used my own pension money. Ive been retired for over a decade.

Now consider that not only do you not know if I am playing in your game, but you dont know how many nations Im playing in your game. MUHAHAhahahahahah!

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

Out of curiosity, Gandalf, if you don't mind-what did you do before you retired?

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

Oh, nevermind, you've got it on your homepage.

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

A couple of your links are broken by the way.

Re: RE: \"Upgrade\" options between Dominion series.
 

Wow, thats an old homepage. I really should update it