Kwok\'s next Mod
 

I've started to put together my next mod. Right now I'm tentatively titled it "Kwok's Galaxy Mod" as it will be my interpretation of the SE universe. It's going to be based off the Balance Mod in terms of general game play, but a lot more flexible in terms of what I'll be adding or changing.

One of the initial changes will be the separation of supplies from engines. In the mod you'll need to add reactors to provide supplies for the engines and there will be a less rigid engine cap to allow for a wider range of ship speeds.

Ship Construction will be amalgamated into a single long tech area, with hull upgrades completely intertwined. For example, you might receive access to a large Battleship hull at the same time you get access to a level III destroyer hull etc.

I'm also expanding the early game weapons to include a bit more variety and the weapon tree in general.

I'm going to scrap armor slots (like SJ's GG mod) and bring in a directional damage system by using just the outer/inner slots. Armor will therefore be leaky and I'll be able to introduce different types of armors to mix and match for designs - think light/heavy armors from SE:IV leaky mods etc.

Not sure if it will feature leaky shields.

I'm going to mix up racial traits a bit as well. Organic and Crystalline traits will provide only their types of ships from the start with and will treated more like the paradigms in Fyron's Adamant Mod. Other racial traits will become "technology traits" that are cheap and provide access to certain components/facilities/weapons.

There will be a few more facilities and they'll vary in size. I might introduce some sort of pollution concept if SE:V will be co-operative in that respect.

The AI will be based on the Balance Mod work but with the necessary tweaks to make it compatible with the described changes. I'll actually be working on both at the same time as it will be no issue transferring 95% of the behavioral changes between mods.

Feel free to post ideas/comments.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

Sounds like it is going to be a great mod Kwok.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

/cheer

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

Looking forward to it... Perhaps some sort of penalty to ships with obnoxious amounts of engines.. Like beyond six, you need to start adding structural support modules to handle the strain. This of course will depend on the size of the ship. But even a Battleship will reach a limit where it can't handle the strain of high speeds...

Just an idea...

Keep up the work of a genius... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Javaslinger

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

pah, if supplies are done properly you don't need an engine cap at all, since more engines use more supplies, therefore faster ships can't go as far.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

But ships don't use supplies to move during combat...

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

Hopefully there will be alot of new weapons and components.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

Don't forget to give Fighters some love. I love fleet battles with carriers, ships of the line, etc mixing it up in a good firefight.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

I would like to see more in game help and descriptions. I know this can make modding it tedious, but it helps with things that you are unsure of. IE.....making sphereworlds, warp hole generators, etc.

I would love to see verbose descriptions and possible examples on how/what/where to use said items. Even on simple weapons we could add flavor text that sorta advises how to best use said weapon. DUC's could comment on making sure you have good supply and ordance since the weapon consumes both. Battle stations - I would build them and the wouldn't fight!!?? After a bit of web reading I realized they need supply storage (no engines to hold supply), but if the base description mentioned that i would have built them correctly right from the get go.

Best thing to remember when doing this, "A lot of us are NO WHERE near the skill level you are or not even in the same ball park on understanding game mchanics!" I have to minimize games and try to find help on the web when I encounter some of these situations/questions.

Thanks for the time and all the GREAT work you are doing!!!

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

Kwok, any plans to increase resource demand or research cost for this mod? Some way to slow down expansion/research rates...

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

Sounds like sweetness. If you need any component pictures done, I volunteer myself to do a few.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

Suggestions:
1 have asteroids in the same sector add together for planet creators (small + tiny = medium, etc) [ugh, and the planet over planet flashes on my computer]
2 have atmospheric conversions at least partially randomize planetary conditions.
3 have two levels of colonizer research, level one only does the native atmospheric type, level two does domed.
4 split up value improvement plants into three categories, one for each resource.
5 consider having (higher level/long range) warp point creation only target another one of your warp capable ships, instead of the system... this would allow precise warp point placement and add some strategy to the pre-shielded-system game.
6 the last one would probably not be mod material... it would be nice to be able to lock a planet from population migrations... so I could freaking make/convert a sphere world to some other atmosphere (for a conquered species) without my own race spamming it with colonists.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

1. This would have to be done by MM, since stellar manip components are hard coded. Planet-over-planet also has to be fixed by MM by only drawing one of a given size of planets. (I wouldn't want only one object drawn - planets in asteroid fields look nice, IMO)
2. This can only be done by MM, also. Might be a really hacky way to do it during events, but I'm not sure.
3. Another thing that was hardcoded. One colonizer does it all. Can't mod that in.
5. Stellar Manip is all hard coded - can't change its destination like that.
6. Again, that can only be done by MM.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

lol, gives new meaning to highly moddable.
thanks, nice to know that info.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

If they allowed you to change everything then there wouldn't be a point in selling you the game in the first place...

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

Of course there would be. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
You get a (great) gaming engine which you can adapt to your liking. The game was advertized with its high modability, the game basically lives from/for it.

So I think in the future those features might get rewritten so you can modify them, too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif


(The reason I partially dislike scripting for a not open source program - you have to wait for the developers to implement what you need first. But of course scriptability itself is a very good thing.)

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

Really? Seems to work for Civ4 and its open sourced core game logic dll..

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

One of the initial changes will be the separation of supplies from engines. In the mod you'll need to add reactors to provide supplies for the engines and there will be a less rigid engine cap to allow for a wider range of ship speeds.

Sounds like a good idea. This could perhaps be taken further by adding higher speed engines which use far more supplies (e.g. using double the supplies for 1.5 times the speed). This would create an interesting design decision for scout ships - higher speed to reach new stars first, or better fuel economy to stay out longer?

Also would it be possible to have a component that improves maneuverability in combat?

Ship Construction will be amalgamated into a single long tech area, with hull upgrades completely intertwined.

This I'm less keen on - firstly since different construction scales should require different techniques (which separate Tech Area seems to address). Secondly it would probably make it harder to have AIs specialise in differing classes (having some preferring a few huge ships and others going for swarms of smaller, faster ones makes for greater variety). Thirdly it removes a strategic research decision that players otherwise have to make - should they spend research on opening/developing a larger ship tech or remain with their existing area, knowing that it will hit a dead end or cost more in the longer term?

Instead I would suggest expanding the levels for all construction types, allowing a major overlap between them (e.g. so a level 12 destroyer could end up with similar tonnage to a level 1 dreadnaught - this could be explained as resulting from better minaturisation of existing components rather than actual tonnage increases). The smaller ship techs would be available sooner but would require far more research to reach the same tonnage as the larger ones, though offering better defense/maneuverability.

I'm also expanding the early game weapons to include a bit more variety and the weapon tree in general.

Would it be possible to randomise the weapons slightly or perhaps include a race-specific adjustment for each weapon type? Giving races a "preferred weapons tech" (especially if players have to experiment to find out what it is) could also provide more variety mid-game.

I'm going to scrap armor slots (like SJ's GG mod) and bring in a directional damage system by using just the outer/inner slots. Armor will therefore be leaky and I'll be able to introduce different types of armors to mix and match for designs - think light/heavy armors from SE:IV leaky mods etc.

Sounds like a good addition - being able to research armour to counter specific weapon types would be a useful option for those finding themselves outclassed by a specific race.

I'm going to mix up racial traits a bit as well. Organic and Crystalline traits will provide only their types of ships from the start with and will treated more like the paradigms in Fyron's Adamant Mod. Other racial traits will become "technology traits" that are cheap and provide access to certain components/facilities/weapons.

The racial traits at the moment seem to be a case of "pay now, receive later" in terms of their benefits (coming into play more in the later stages of the game). Giving some early, distinct ones (e.g. better small ships for Crystalline races, quicker access to large ones for Organic) could be a useful addition as long as it isn't overdone.

I might introduce some sort of pollution concept if SE:V will be co-operative in that respect.

Doing this fully (e.g. including racial traits to worsen/ameliorate it, listing pollution values in all status reports and listings, having AI minsters deal with it semi-intelligently) would seem to require more work than it's worth. How about just modding industrial facilities to decrease happiness, with higher level facilities having less of an effect?

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

I really liked most of your suggestions and feel like they could work quite well in game.

Armor - I would like to see a broader range in armors as you mentioned. The armors could have varying degrees of effectiveness versus certain weapon types. Reflective armor is better against beam weapons, Composite armor versus ballistic weapons, etc. I'm we could come up with numerous names and types of armors.

Shields - These could vary in types as well. Solid shields (standard), Kinetic shields (best against ballistic), Flux shields (against energy), Phase shields (shots have chance to pass thru target), Holo shields (no protection but greater defense), Absorbing shields (blocks damage and adds to ships energy/supplies), Lightning shields (destroys/damages incoming missles, torps, fighters) Reflecting shields (sends part of attack back at the shooter), Cloaking shields (hides you), Void shields (stops anything coming in, but collaspes after a set number of HITS. ie a 6 point fighter hit is same as a 1000 point beam hit), Dampening shields (weapons always strike ship, but reduced damage on the weapons), etc. Shields would have to all be leaky EXCEPT for the Void shields.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

I actually ended up splitting ship construction into light, medium, and heavy categories. Haven't made any decisions on what tech levels provide what yet.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

If you're looking to be logical try hanging the base and ship construction techs off of a theoretical "Engineering" field. And please, please break up Stellar Manipulations already! It's been a catch-all for various almost unrelated techs for much too long.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

I would also like to see planets use more resources. Currently, they really do not require much to maintain, which fuels rapid expansion.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

That is a tough one to balance slow developement versus fun in playing. If it takes forever for the game to get going you could find MANY people quitting the game for greener pastures.

I too like the build up process, but we gotta find a happy medium. I think all that is handled well with the research cost selection on the game set up along with planets and values, etc.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

Baron Munchausen said:
"And please, please break up Stellar Manipulations already! It's been a catch-all for various almost unrelated techs for much too long."

Indeed. I break it up in all of my mods. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

Romulus68:

You should know how fast people can expand and abuse the system... Just ask Grend in our game. There is no stopping his expansion, unless everyone else expands the same way.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

Well, expansion is sort of the point of the game.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

Any idea of how long it will take before you have a playable version of this mod CK?

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

I agree, but I think establishing a new colony should be a decision, not a necessity. Grend posted an expansion guide on se.com, and I've seen him do it in several games. It is very effective and there is nothing to hold back the massive expansion. I just think there should be more expense to establishing a new colony.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

Not sure exactly. I've started editing the data files and making the revised tech tree, but it's going to take a bit of work to implement an AI-sensitive version of the leaky armor.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

aegisx said:
"I agree, but I think establishing a new colony should be a decision, not a necessity."

It's not entirely clear to me why nerfing one of the Xs of a 4X game is a good thing. Civ4 did it, and it sucked; probably the worst part of the game. Establishing new colonies should always be beneficial, and thus not much of a decision.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

I should qualify this as more as a PBW/MP change.

It becomes a mad colony rush,. Check out http://www.spaceempires5.com/en-US/node/2782. This old guide outlines how to pump out 17 colonizers by turn 11. So all these ships will likely find planets to colonize, no real thought on having to support them resource wise.

How do you counter that type of expansion other then being forced to follow the same path?

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

There's two items I would modified to tone down expansion a bit:
- Slightly more expensive colony modules
- Reduced population modifiers below 100M

Regardless in any competitive PBW environment, you're going to have to expand as possible anyway.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

I agree expansion is necessary, but I would like to see some drawback to the rush strategy.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

The main drawback is that most of the colonies are poorly defended and have minimal facilities, the player is running on the edge for resources, and is stuck with slow builds for most of their inner SYs. They are very vulnerable to an early attack.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

Early attacks are difficult to pull off. All he has to do is build a few WP's on a planet (1 turn) and it can defend pretty well against early ships. Also, If he already has a 2- 3 times colony advantage, the loss of a planet or 2 is insignificant as he can out-produce you.


As it should be, the empire with the most planets will tend to win the game. There are exceptions of course. Your changes should slow it some though.

How about this... Production level on planets are partly based on population right? Maybe this formula needs to be changed. Right now a newly colonized planet (10M people) can produce 2k I believe. This seems a bit high of a start, perhaps it should be more like 500. If a planet has 1000M, I could see it being closer to 2000.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

A caveat: turning the mod into a population transport-fest isn't the best idea, IMO. Mods like Proportions and P&N PBW do this, making it require lots of pop to get decent colonies. In multiplayer, it generally just serves to slow the game way down, and make it drag on. Its fine for single player, where you can hit end turn like a champ, but multiplayer tends to bog down for a while at the start. Sure SE5's migration can mitigate it a little, but if you start requiring very high pop levels to get decent production, you will add the necessity to build a bunch of population transports in order to play effectively.

If you just set the base build rate to 500, and don't fiddle with the population modifiers, you effectively get a situation where you have low build rates, until you build a space yard. The SY will take quite a while to build (20 turns instead of 5), slowing down expansion, without adding the unnecessary micromanagement of extra population transports.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

Baron Munchausen: If you're looking to be logical try hanging the base and ship construction techs off of a theoretical "Engineering" field.

Good idea - this could be supplemented by requiring a second theoretical field ("Minaturisation" in line with the comments above or "Large-Scale Construction") for higher levels of ship design.

Baron Munchausen: And please, please break up Stellar Manipulations already! It's been a catch-all for various almost unrelated techs for much too long.

I'd second..whoops..third this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif It would seem better suited as a prerequisite theoretical field.

aegisx: How do you counter that type of expansion other then being forced to follow the same path?

One option would be to add minimum population requirements (if possible) to key facilities (shipyards, resupply depots) and to have these increase with level (on the grounds that more advanced facilities require better infrastructure support even if they need less staff). That way, expanding empires either have to focus on building up one or two colonies to gain access to better facilities faster, or use older facilities on new colonies and upgrade when population permits.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

Are the ruins' tech rewards moddable? I've noticed that they aren't completely random, and with the Balance Mod changes in tech costs the results can be worthless to unbelievably valuable.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

AstralWanderer said:
"One option would be to add minimum population requirements (if possible)..."

Not possible at present.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

But many players could find it worthwhile to build an attack fleet instead of a coloniser/pop transport fleet!
That would give you a real choice on how do you want to play the game...

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

Not really; the guy with the transports will still have warships, able to fight back against the small early game fleets fielded against him. And over time, he will get far, far ahead. I've yet to see it play out any differently in any of the PBW games with such mods I've been in.

Unless you get really lucky and have a successful blitzkrieg, early game warfare in multiplayer usually causes you to lose the game (and often the person you duke it out with). Not expanding is a death wish. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

One useful addition would be seeker decoys - low-cost seekers intended to absorb point-defense fire (rather like MIRVs) giving actual missiles, fighers or drones a better chance to get through a heavy PD defence (which otherwise tends to negate the whole point of seekers).

Another would be external mounts that provide extra tonnage on ship designs, but with the downside of making the components installed on them more vulnerable to battle damage - handled perhaps by restricting these to Armour slots and reducing the structure of the component in question? (this would provide an alternative use for Armour slots given the suggested changes to actual armour posted above).

As for ship design, how about requiring the use of space station shipyards for building larger classes? The rationale for this is that larger constructions would need to be assembled in-orbit - gamewise it would give more reason for using space stations (currently weapon platforms outdo them for planet defense and planet space yard facilities have better build rates).

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

I like the idea of removing auto-fire ability from the point defense in SE4. Then you never know what will happen.

For SE5, there is a nice option for leaky PD utilizing the poission distribution.
1) Set PD guns to -999% to-hit. (IE: guarantee the 1% hit chance despite all bonuses)
2) Set reload time to ~50ms
3) Set the damage to 999
4) Set the PD projectile speed very high, or make it a beam.
5) Disable the PD animations, or at least make them short and simple; flak bursts perhaps.
6) Disable the sound effects, or possibly make them VERY VERY quiet so that 100 of them overlapping isn't speaker-blowingly loud.

Improved PD potency comes from increased range and additional PD guns.
Improved PD penetration comes from increasing seeker speed and larger volleys.

You get 20 shots per second from each PD gun, so the longer the seeker is in range the better your chances.

There is a small chance that you won't shoot down any missiles, but there is also a small chance you will shoot down lots of missiles with just one PD gun. The more the merrier, but nothing is guaranteed, and you get a nice poission distribution of missile-kills.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

Suicide Junkie said:
I like the idea of removing auto-fire ability from the point defense in SE4. Then you never know what will happen.

It would certainly better approximate real-world point defence, but would likely result in severe performance problems, e.g. large battles with thousands of simultaneous PD rounds - even without graphics, there would still be calculation overheads. A less extreme adjustment (doubling fire rate and halving the damage done) may work better.

My preference would be to supply ways of countering strong PD - decoys are one option and improved (faster, tougher, stealthier) seekers could be another.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

I like it.

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

I have implemented it in GGmod, so you can try it out if you like.
Grab the latest version, and copy the stock mainstrings and helptext files to get it running under 1.44

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

I'll be sticking sort of close to the Balance Mod's PD system (in terms of timing, damage amounts, etc) but I'd like to put in some counter PD items such as the aforementioned Decoy Missile.

---

Regarding the leaky armor I had posted about earlier. Dropping the armor slots in order to gain leaky armor will be difficult. There's no real way to tell the AI's design algorithm where to place armor in a design - other than in the next top slot (ie lowest numbered open slot) or next bottom slot (ie highest numbered open slot). I think some lobbying efforts to MM to allow for armor slots to be treated as inner/outer slots and subject to directional damage might be the best option. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Kwok\'s next Mod
 

What if you rearranged the slots in the slot-config text file so instead of listing them from top to bottom, you listed them from outside to inside, or vice versa? Sounds like a pain to do but I just thought I'd suggest it...