Is magic worth it?!?
 

Hi guys,

I've played around 5-6 single player games so I guess i am still fairly new... but one thing I've unfortunately found in each game I've played is how LITTLE magic actually affects the outcomes of my battles...

I just can't figure out what I'm missing? In almost every single fight its the number and quality of troops that ensure victory... my mages just seem to soak up resources and don't really do much..

For example I am playing a Late age game with Arcoscephale and I cannot for the life of me see any spells that are going to be real game turners...

Could someone please tell me I am wrong and explain to me what spells with Arcoscephale will really make me whoop some butt in the fights?

I've tried casting the vine line of spells and they frequently aren't in range or don't hit, same thing with slime. Don't really have any nukes that do much more than hit 1 target.. big whoop I'd rather have 1 calvary unit than any one of my casters...

I just don't see how spells that at most affect 1 square which I believe it 3 targets, can affect the outcome of battles that are already having close to 100 enemy troops..

thanks in advance for the thoughts!

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

>Late age game with Arcoscephale

Generally speaking late age has less magic; late age mages have less magic skills. As stated on page 97 of the manual - "The early age has a predominance of magic, and as the ages progress, the primacy of arms and armor becomes pronounced".

Here's one strategy for making late game arco a strong magic nation: Take magic 3 and a strong dominion. Recruit sybils until you get a few level 3 astral. Build cheap forts and labs and then pump out mystics en-masse. Set your sybil to cast light of the northern star and set all your mystics to cast mind burn. Watch the enemy die.

Another strategy for late game arco involving magic: Take luck 3, turmoil 3 and an awake pretender you can use for early expansion (eg dragon), with magic keep in mind a good bless effect. Recruit mystics and go for arcane probing (evocation) then conjuration 5. While researching conjuration, use arcane probing to find astral sites and use mystics that have a high magic skill to find magic sites (you should have lots of provinces you can search due to quick early expansion). By the time you have conjuration 5 you should have gotten plenty of magic gems from luck 3 and from magic site searching. Convert the gems to astral and use your mystics to cast ritual spell Summon Sirrush. Use your newly acquired uber blessable mutant-dragons to smash the enemy.

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

If you are playing small maps, weak independents, many opponents, then you are correct. In those cases, magic is not as likely to be a big factor in winning the game.

But consider where you are on a scale between the smallest option of those, and the largest. There are game settings where magic becomes a major factor. This is also true of resources, or gold, or dominion strength, rainbow gods, SC's, or blessings. In some game settings they are important factors, and in others they are not so much.

On a large map, with half the opponents, and hard independents, I think you would find that magic becomes very important to winning the game. And more important on mid to late game combats.

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

When I first started out I felt much the same, but later on magic picks up steam and becomes powerful enough to wreck entire mundane armies without breaking a sweat. Part of the problem is that low level spells tend to be so useless, but if you want a quick and easy demonstration of how effective magic can be, I'd suggest going with EA Abysia and going all out to research evocation spells. Then send out your fire mages to spam stuff like falling fires. Quickly gives you an idea of how effective magic is.

Note: I'm not saying EA Abysia is a great magic nation, just that they provide an easy to see example and you don't get friendly fire problems.

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

Nature has horrible evocation spells, and astral isn't very good against large hordes of troops, but mind burn spam is fairly nice if your opponent is fielding lots of expensive units, like cavalry, and soul slay for anything larger than that. Both of those paths are more focused on support magic. Astral is the king of winning fights off the battlefield, with great mobility spells (teleport/gateway/astral travel) and mind hunt which can take out enemy leaders, leaving their troops stranded. Nature has great global enchantments.

Astral especially has some really nice high level spells. Try casting astral tempest, antimagic and will of the fates in a large battle (against human-type opponents, astral tempest won't be so good against high hp or MR opposition since your own troops are fragile) and see how things go.

Also, drop body ethereal, luck, and regeneration on an SC chassis and watch them go to town, just make sure they have some reinvigoration and decent protection and they should be good to go.

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

Get a few astral mages with Body Ethereal. Put one of them in the middle of each of your squads. Put the squads on "hold and attack." Script your mages to cast Body Ethereal three times, then whatever you want.

A fair number of your regular troops will now avoid 70% of the attacks that would have otherwise hit them. It is not a nuke, but you will find you will a lot more battles!

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

You don't HAVE to use magic if you don't need it, but you're seriously handicapping yourself by that. Later the game is all about the mages.

Some examples: Doom, Will of the Fates in battle. Arcane Domination, Master Enslave aswell if you can get it off via communions or whatever. Mind Hunt / Soul Slay against a non-astral nation. Magic Duel against an astral nation.

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

Now try that with your elephants. Add in some Luck as well.

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

Wrath of God is an awfully nice Astral spell that kills your opponent's troops. Playing single player right now and 300 troops are wounded and 100+ are killed every turn with me doing nothing.

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

Short Answer: Yes, magic is certainly worth it.

Remember that magic is about more than simply tossing battlefield nukes. As others have written, Astral magic is really more for support than for blasting.

Here are several non-battlefield uses of Astral magic:

• quick transportation -> Teleport, Gateway, Astral Travel
• reconnaissance -> Astral Window, Eyes of God
• site-searching -> Acashic Record
• commander-killing -> Mind Hunt
• defense -> Dispel, Dome of Arcane Warding
• dominion-pushing -> Telestic Animates, Juggernauts
• WISH ('nuff said)

Astral magic also offers some nice Construction possibilities: Pendants of Luck, Amulets of Antimagic, Rings of Sorcery and Wizardry (to boost other paths), Spell Foci, Robes of Shadows, and that Shroud thingy to bless your non-sacred commanders.

However, Astral magic can also be handy on the battlefield. Besides the tactics that have already been mentioned, here are a few more:

• Stellar Cascades -> No, it's not as impressive as the Abysian BBQ, but it can be just as effective. Dish out massive AP stun damage to large numbers of badguys. Then your troops can kill them easier....
• Star Fires -> Cheap, simple ... armor-negating damage. Great for opponents with a lot of protection and not many HP.
• Solar Rays -> Reasonably effective anti-undead spell. Kill hordes of zombies.

I can also attest to the effectiveness of the previously-mentioned Mind Burn and/or Soul Slay. Sure, each spell only kills one unit, but that's great against an opponent with expensive, hard-to-kill units. Set up a row of Mystics with Spell Foci (to increase magical penetration) and start zapping.

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

If you are playing the AI and want to see the power of magic, you shouldn't be using Astral. Try the elemental magics. The most obvious example is using a strong Earth nation in EA and casting Blade Winds. Just try it and see - it will open up your eyes to the power of battlefield magic.

Then, when you are ready to take it up a notch, play a nation with strong Fire and cast Firestorm or Flames from the Sky (the really high level one) in midsummer.

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

So if I am understanding some of you right... LA magic has less of an impact on the game... In your opinions does minimizing this huge dynamic of the game (magic) in the LA and to lesser extent MA, make the game less strategically complex? If I am wanting a more strategically complex game do you recommend sticking with EA?

What are most MP games played with?

Any recommendations for a good SP experience?

thanks!

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

The only difference I've noticed of magic in the game is that EA, by default, has a higher random magic site level.

I guess the nations are suppose to have less access to good mages, as well.

Jazzepi

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

Magic has a strong impact in every age. Certainly there are some very strongly magical early nations(abysia gets F4+randoms on a mage, caelum A4+randoms ect) but LA has some decent mages too(check out patala) and in any game lasting a long time magic will probably be the main factor. As gandalf said small maps, weak independents(7-9 is most common) and many opponents all lessen the effects of magic and limit the time and resources avaliable to develop your magic.

Play a single player game with the minimum reccomended ai players, indies set to 8 and other settings on normal and you should get to use some magic.

LA Arco isnt really a good choice for seeing the powers of battle-field magic when your just starting. Astral is mainly single target up until the end game and nature isnt really a combat path either. Try the game setting i reccomended with EA Abysia and hire a bunch of mages(trying to get atleast a few annointed of rhuax for later) to quickly research evocation(up to atleast falling fires). You national troops are fire-immune so they wont take damage from your fireballs and falling fires which should decimate the enemy.

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

Yeah, i think that is a valid statement. Magic has less impact in LA cause your mages arent as powerful / dont have as good randoms. But I think the extent of the impact is highly debatable.

If you are looking to maximize the dynamism of a game you should play EA. There will be, on average, more summoned units, more interesting battlefield spells, and more globals due to the prevalance of magic.

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

thanks i will try that!

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

I'm a noob... what does wish do?

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

You can wish for things.
Pretty much anything.
It has a long list of keywords that it recognizes and the combinations still have not been fully explored.

Wish...
 

Well, it depends on what you wish for. Spawns a dialog box and asks you to type in something...

'Death', incidentally, is a valid if not necessarily optimal choice.

Re: Wish...
 

Some things you can wish for include gems(over 100), blood slaves(250 iirc), various pretenders(such as dragons, although they appear as units), seraphs(considered by some to be the single best SC unit), death(guess what happens), troops(300 militia) and any creature in the game(and many other things too).

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

If you can't stand to piecemeal it then Mass protection is for you. Suddenly those lizards that C'tiss puts out become hard to kill. Don't forget your healing light or Skull staffs.

My personal favorites Flaming arrows and rain, depending on which side I am on.

Desiccation or Curse of the desert seems petty but I have seen it rout mean armies. Your troops just grind to a halt.

Got water? Bottles of living water are great. One water elemental is pathetic. Five or ten is something else. That wimpy scout is a one shot SC. Put him in the front with a say behind troops order and he is a fire and forget weapon.

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

Wishing for dominion is one of my favorite tricks. It's great to help score that end-game dominion kill against the stupid Sphinx hiding in his fortress, or against the water nation when I don't want to bother with Thetis Blessing.

One of the best things to do with magic is build stuff. Nature has some great construction potential, especially in the Misc category. Wineskins and Cauldrons will end all of your supply woes, Rings of Regen are good insurance for valuable commanders, and a Barkskin Amulet is a cheap way to protect a mage from the occasional stray arrow.

In a MA Man game once, I had a standard outfit for my Mothers of Avalon. Every Mother got a Robe of Missile Protection and a Barkskin Amulet. It was cheap & effective, and they could self-forge the gear. No, it didn't make my mages unkillable, but it sure helped keep the casualty rate down as low as possible.

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

hrmm perhaps i'm missing somethere here too...

In single player it seems like it's more of a game of mass smaller battles so to speak instead of these titanic end all battles... The computere usually has his forces relatievly spread out and I am forced to do the same to some extent to keep my borders from being invaded...

How does this play out in MP? When fighting human opponents are the battles typically more decisive?

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

There is generally even more raiding in multiplayer than in single player but, as humans also tend to hold less back there are usually more decisive battles too.

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

If you play a solo game with resources and independents turned DOWN then you can get something like an idea of what an MP game is like. You get rushed by all of the AIs and they use more of theyr national troops

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

The battles are typically very decisive between players. Often losing 2-3 important battles spells certain long term doom for your god and nation.

Most players usually have 2-3 big core armies and then small groups of raiders by midgame. Those could be individual SC's, small groups of thugs or small stealth/flying/teleporting armies.

Personally, its your big armies that win you the war in the long run, raiders are there to annoy your opponent, hurt him economically, keep him off balance/paranoid and generally make life unpleasent... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Its your big armies that hold land, conquer castles/capitals and destroy his ability to fight back, by defeating his armies.

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

Like the OP, i have being playing SP only but in EA. I've tried maybe about 8+ nations so far.

Yeah, personally I find the battlefield magic relatively weak , until level 4-5. Before that it's mostly use for bluffing SC's and thugs and site searching spells.

So early game most of the mages i recruit are for researching, but by the time i get good spells most of my mages are behind the line and it takes heck a lot of effort to get them to the front lines (unless they have air 3 for cloud trapezie).

It's kind of irriating like with forging stuff and recruiting capital only troops but at least for those i can use the extra commanders as mules...

But it sure is fun watching the mages cast all the flame based spells - flame bolt,fire blast fireball, flame erruption, Flare,Falling fires etc though to be honest
a lot of them look pretty similar to me.

I suppose there is an art to it by looking at different AOE, and range since the damage all look the same (plus minus 1)

And i suppose the larger the AOE the better (after damaage)

I figured out that there is no point in scripting very short range spells like Flame erruption as the first or second turn, cos the enemy won't be close enough....

Though with ranges 25 and up to 40, don't seem to make any difference to me...

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

You dont need commanders as 'mules' when you forge items, just build a lab near the front line. Range is a big factor, long range is particularly useful because it lets your mages hang back out of the range of enemy mages and archers ect.

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

Ahh perhaps that helps me understand a bit better the use of magic too... It sounds like magic is more useful then in MP because the battles are so important...

I mean many of the battles in SP vs the computer are rarely that much different from the next... So I have a hard time justifying spending a bunch of resources say on summoning elementals, regularly b/c I don't have enough gems to support it every single turn.

Where as in a MP game if you have a big fight you want to throw in everything you have to make sure you come out on top...

Does that sound about right?

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

Pretty much, although gem spending is often saved for the very large battles. If you want to see some bigger battles find a one province wide chokepoint and put enough PD in it to hold off enemy attacks. After a while they should either have a big force outside it that you can attack or they will beat the PD with a large army which you can then attack.

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

I don't do much site searching but i still end up with easily 300+ gems in at least 2 paths, and about 100 in the others. I really need to use magic more, throw some at the commanders just for fun even... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

That's a sizeable stockpile -- useful if you have a global or a dispel in mind. If not, there's probably some good use for 'em.

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

I'll reiterate the poster who mentioned Abyssia.

Others:

MA Ermor has pretty amazing communions very early, able to boost multiple Thaumaturgs to Holy 4. This gives a lot of nice options - even regular longdeads are formidable with Power of the Sepulchre, and your longdead horsemen legions and Shadow Vestals are nasty indeed. Plus, when in doubt, spam Smite.

If magic sites are weaker in LA, you might think about LA Mictlan as a magical force to be reckoned with. Mictlan, more than just about any other nation save perhaps Ermor, lives and dies by effective magic use. LA is pretty much identical to EA with regards to magic strength overall, with less fire and more water (leading to easier clam spam, another big source of magic power) and a variety of powerful mage priests who don't have to worry about age (nice before you get boots, still saves you blood/keeps a slot free). Also, national troops are a quite a bit weaker in LA, so your Jaguars won't be competing with Vans.

Re: Is magic worth it?!?
 

I thought Arco had access to mystics in all ages. If so, you've got great battle magic because all mystics have access to Communion at Thau-1, and with the great variety of elemental magics mystics have you should be able to cast most of the good battle spells up to E3/W3/F3 or so, depending upon which mystic you pick to be the Communion master.

-Max

-Max