Sitting on the fence
 

As the title goes, I've been thinking about taking up Dominions again, but I still need to overcome my initial inertia. So, how would you convince someone to jump back in the arena?

I'm mostly interested in MP, so I'm looking for the crazy game ideas you came up with, or how Dominions 3 makes betrayal so much more pleasurable. In other words, what's the Great and the Brilliant in Dominions MP these days?

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

I am the Great and the Brilliant!

...errr, that is to say, many of your old Dom2 buddies like me and Pashadawg still play regularly: what more reason could you need? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

Something interesting and fun, but not necessarily playable, is the 62 player perpetuality game. Gandalf or some other freako http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif has made a mod that enables all nations of all eras to play simultaneously. I do not play in the game, but have been following the discussions occasionally, and it sounds quite fascinating. I believe there is talk about starting a new one.

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

It's been playable and fun for now... it's exciting knowing that beyond your initial politics of 6-10 nations, there's another 50 out there you haven't even contacted yet. Trading becomes much more important, as well.

Anyway... welcome back, Alneyan! Stop by the IRC channel sometime.

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

Welcome back! As morkilus said stop by the IRC channel, im sure someone could fill you in.

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

"crazy game ideas"? Sounds like Im being paged. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

games with victory-point conditions

games using CBM (conceptual balance mod)

games with no indepts at all

games where each player is provided with a "blind email" on a server. maximum effort to try and keep all players totally anonymous which tends to increase the backstabbing and paranoia by quite abit.

games with no national sites (and elite units)

games where the players "bid" for their nations.

games where the farther down on your choice list you go, the higher the starting benefits you get. such as extra starting population

games where everyone turns in their gods but then they are randomly assigned to the players so everyone plays something other than they turned in

A game of "Musical Chairs". If there are 10 players then the game hosts whenever 9 have turned in their turn. The last player always stales.

games using mods as better AI's. Purposely unbalanced mods such as Amos does. Setting all of the AI's to ally with each other against all of the players can also be interesting.

games using low resources which seems to make the AI play better. Also trying the various other settings possible in the game which I dont think has been done completely in MP games

large games on a wrappable map

game on mega large map which makes nations play abit different (such as ones with stealth having advantages they dont get in small map games)

games with players and AI's which give the AI's a 10 or 20 turn head start

games on a tower map (very high but only wide enough for one nation at a time, very different playing)

games using the SemiRandom generator. Either to scatter interesting provinces on the map. Or using it to generate a game with AIs that have designed gods/scales instead of randomly created ones which might choose self-destructive settings.

games with all nations playing together at once. There are two of those running. One with 62 and one with 75 but with AIs included. The single nation mod allows all 3 eras to play together but setting up an MP game with it is rough.

games with the "randomly generated module" which changes one feature of every unit in the game forcing you to relearn and adapt during the game

Im also still messing with what kindof fun mid-game changes can be done by editing a mod while the game is running. Im thinking of tying it in with a routine that will watch the log output or scoreboard for certain occurances. The turn number, or someone getting a certain size, or first person out.

Hmmm I think thats all I can think of at the moment
Gandalf Parker

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

1) Civil War- modded game where everyone plays the same nation.

2) Astral Fragmentation- play a map with all province connections removed and easy mass teleport modded in for all.

3) Unchalleged Victory- independant strength 0 game.

4) Untainted- game with only 8 players, and a mod that resticts each one to only one magic path (or optionally school).

5) Broken Empire- scenario set up where one player starts in the middle with a sizeable empire, they are declared the winner if they survive X turns, anyone else wins if they capiture the empire's capital.

6) Entitled- compile list of thematic bonuses for rare pretender titles, then have a third party assign them via map modding to nations that manage to generate them.

EDIT: Gandalf beat me to a list. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

@QM:
Civil War!
I forgot that one. Ive been asking for people to create mods that perfectly duplicate a nation. If we had an Ulm mod then a game could be played (I think) that puts that mod into every one of the 75 nations slots. A great way for people to prove who is the best at playing certain nations.

As long as you slightly rename the nation (Ulm1, Ulm2,.. , Ulm75). Maybe need new flags also. Flags with numbers? And a color for each?

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

I'm loving the megagame, and it's only my 2nd ever MP! It had a couple early bugs, but has been great fun with lots of diplomacy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

Hey!! I resemble that remark!

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

Not mentioned yet are a couple of games (hosted by Ironhowk I think) that had all players start out with 9? provinces, and a stack of sages in their capitol, so the early game is pretty much skipped. I had the impression those playing it found it refreshing and fun.

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

Yeah I ran a couple of Accelerated Games as I've been calling them. VPs, 9 Starting provs, Easy Research, high gems, small map w/ only 1-2 indy provs per nation. The wars start almost immediately and rapidly proceed to late game mega-magic. Quite fun!

Think of it as the middle-ground b/w a Blitz and a 3-4month Long Term game.

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

Giving you the beating of the year, for starters.

Gandalf & QM: I was mostly looking for the new craziness offered by Dominions 3, like the titanic game or the civil war. Are there other such ideas floating around that could not have appeared in Dominions 2?

Well, I have two weeks to make up my mind about Dominions 3, so I'll be lurking now.

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

The "Musical Chairs" one has some admining quirks to try and automate it which I havent messed with very far. You still have an account if you want to test one.

And one that has come up is a "Spoils to the Conqueror" idea which I havent tested. People sometimes mention that they wish they could recruit the other guys units when they get his castle. If a map is created with #specstarts for each nation, #killfeature, then use #knownfeature to reassign the national sites....
A) do they still work
B) if captured, do they still work?
C) if the above doesnt work then can they be assigned to a neighboring province and will that work? (yes everyone would start with double sites but it would still be even)

Hmmm that brings up another. Something along the line of IronHawks Accelerated Games. Start everyone with two or 3 castles with duplicates of their national sites.

(again, this is all untested hacks so I have no idea if they are possible)

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

Disclaimer: I have no idea if any of these are possible. Ones clearly possible are exceptions to the rules.
Aside from the last one, are any of these remotely possible and worth me looking into?

Crazy game idea? I have no reason to suspect its possible, but ... an epic map. Many fantasy novels have an event where the world was sundered in twain. Or stuff like that. If at all possible, I'd suspect that the players would have to agree to replace their game map all at the same time. And the game hoster would have to mod the old data into the new map.

But ideas... Take for instance, Paraganos. Imagine that the two land masses come together (Sea -> Farmland) at one or two of the lakes, around year five. Then, one of the other lakes opens up a bit, or one of the provinces sinks below. The gamehoster would act as kind of a GM, and the gameplayers wouldn't know whats happening until maybe a year before the event. If anything was horribly unfair, they'd figure out some bone to throw someone on the short end of the stick.

I am fascinated by the "Other person's Pretenders concept". If you design the winning person's Pretender (and don't get it yourself) you get a bonus in the next game (choose start site, maybe?, pick a magic site), or at least an honorable mention?

Games with humans having a typical start, but one AI starts out as a small empire the rest have to overcome before turning upon each other. You could backstab someone before-hand, but then you'd have to watch your back.

Games with 100% sites, 30% resources, 80% gold. Summons for all.

Aside from the last one, are any of these remotely possible and worth me looking into?

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

The changing map one isn't I'm afraid. The map is fixed once the game starts. Well, you could change the picture, but not any of its actual properties or connections.

What you can change mid-game is mods. So you could have new units become available during the game or something. You could probably have everyone gradually change from the EA to the LA version of their nation through the game! But that would take a lot of work.

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

That's nice to hear. But w/regards to that last paragraph, there may be an easier, though less accurate way to do that which would avoid the complication of removing units from the game.(though some nations such as Ctis would complicate things). If you can combine all three eras into one nation, say EA, MA, LA ulm into Single Era Ulm, and have three different mod versions of SE Ulm with all units available. In one version, you'd have the resource costs for EA normal, but the other two eras ridiculously high. The next version, you'd have MA normal, and so on. In theory, this would allow you to keep some of your heroes and commanders throughout the ages and offer up some real interesting strategies, since they'd no longer be recruitable later on. And if you wanted to force obsolescence you could invite glitchs by lowering max ages.

That'd still take a lot of work, but hopefully less on the part of gameplayers. If I find the time, I'll look into that. But I've got other things on my plate, ATM, namely, my first Dom3 MP game, server courtesy of the llamabeast, and finishing my godawfully large MA Agartha guide.

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

I like that idea. It also would make the game abit more RPG since you would get very protective about early era champions that have made it thru the ages. And on a really large map that would breath new life into the game as it progresses thru the eras. I even think that this might be a good thing for Illwinter to look into. Adding a progressive game option.

I had an idea to do a big campaign scenario with 3 maps and try go with the feel of moving from era to era with carryover benefits but I could only simulate it. I couldnt really base the growth on previous actions. I really like the concept with a mod moving it along. You might actually have found my motivation to mod.

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

I found an old "half an idea" writeup.

---------------------
Ive been leary of mentioning the "change game on the fly" since it adds to the concenr of trusting your host. Its a problem that we had in Dom2. Also, I suspect that use of it, might cause Johan to fix it (Ive personally had problems along that line http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif )

However, it does hold some wonderful possibilities.
Here are some tidbits for you:

A) it is possible for an external program to programmically make changes to the mod during the game. For best results the game should be brought down and rebooted after the change is made.

B) it is possible for an external program to "see" and react to:
1) what turn it is
2) what season it is
3) certain nations failing to upload turn files, or failing to upload a turn for X number of hostings
4) how many nations have dropped out
5) how many are owned by a nation or by all nations:
1a) provinces
2a) forts
3a) income
4a) gem income
5a) research
6a) dominion
7a) army size
8a) victory points
6) all of the above as it applies to Independents to gauge the progression of the game. Such as when there are less than 10% provinces held by indepts.
7) largest change in any of the above
8) how many of something has entered the game:
1b) assassins
2b) horrors
3b) global spells
9) certain specific provinces being attacked (when the home of xxxx is attacked then)
10) certain spells being cast (meaning a way to check if a certain research level has been reached, or to know that AI Ermor is now capable of xxxxx)
11) what random events have run
12) specific items gotten from combats
13) overkills (such as a 2000 army killing a 200 army)
14) more than one nation playing with the same serial (one person playing as two and

Such as....
a game with a better planned Early Age Ermor as an AI. Well designed god, well chosen scales, tweaked to play well as an AI. And then an outside program can watch the logs. When Ermors castle comes under siege then "Ermor casts a massive revenge spell" and suddely goes total undead with tweaks to be a big problem trying to take them out.

Or a "sacred forest" stretching across numerous provinces and when they are attacked then Pangaea erupts everywhere.

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

Glad to know I've helped to motivate you just as someone helped motivate me to finish my Golem Cult guide. I'd be willing to help you with such a mod, as long as someone knowledgeable was in a leadership role.

I'm not yet willing to decipher the inner working of the mod files and save game formats, though coding a small program in Python or C++ to adjust what I'm told, would be within my field of interest.

And if some grunt work needed doing, I'd be willing to adjust everything needing change, as long as someone else did the thinking for me. "Here's this information, it looks like this, change all 100 of these values. Here's how you open it." I'm willing to do that, I've got the downtime with my job. "Here's what I want to do, how do I do it, where do I do it, and what is it called?" That requires brain cycles used by my job and guide write up- at the moment, that's tapped out. Though that will change for the better.

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

Gee that would work well for me.
I have an over-active brain and extremely-lazy fingers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

Idea for the next mega-game. If anyone has been watching it they know that much of the games "diplomacy" has been based on the score graphs. Any game on a large map (20/player) and around 10 players or more has seen it. And I have taken note of the requests for games with scoring turned off.

So Im thinking.. run the game --noscoregraphs --scoreboard which kills the graphs IN the game but gives exact numbers to a file that the host can post.

But dont post it. Take the scores.html and process it to give "worlds general impression of" which you post instead. Keep a running total of the numbers and offer the average results by only listing the highest and lowest nation. "The worlds general impression is that Ermor has the largest armies, Arcos has the most magic, Caelum has the most resources". Since its a running average, sudden spikes or losses might not show up. The world would have to gradually get an idea of changes. You might know that generally the worlds impression is that Jotunheim has the smallest army even though sudden losses make Ctis the actual lowest in military forces. Hmmm over long-game that will get less and less useful. Maybe the running total should only reflect the last... 10 turns? year? And OBVIOUSLY Im thinking of automating the process.

It would make spying more useful, trading info more profitable, and make bluffing a real part of the game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
OK yeah, its an RPG thing and the ladder people will probably hate it but then they tend to hate the mega games anyway.

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

I like that idea. It could be a running average with noise. As in, each turn the "army" value for a nation is its true size +=30%, adn the value shown is the average over the values for the last 10 turns. But the noise could be a parameter chosen at the start of the game, offering some kind of continuum between scoregraphs on and off.

I could do this easily if I had any idea how to automatically draw graphs (my knowledge of automated web and graphics stuff is pretty thin). I think at some point a while ago lch said he had some kind of a php script or something for doing it. That would be great.

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

I was going for text rather than a graph. But it could be automatically graphed. Unix/Linux loves such things. There is a script language called ghost, or an old program called gnuplot. Some require more friendly familiarity with math than I have.
http://linuxgazette.net/103/okopnik.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...tting_software

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

An interesting twist on your idea gandalf: Make the players pay for the information http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image.../firedevil.gif

So, hide the graphs and generate the numbers. And if players want the exact numbers for that turn, they have to pay some gold amount to the GM. Its sort of like the price you would have to pay to support a network of spies to collect said information.

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

I was thinking of using that idea in the mega-age game - spend much of your money on scouts and sell the info to other nations. You gotta earn your money somehow if you're not a "rush" nation.

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

Im surprised that in an older game such as mega game that someone doesnt rush for Eyes of God and then sell screenshots.

Or barter with other nations so that they all contribute gems to the casting of Eyes of God to make it strong enough to last, in return for regular updates on its view. Maybe based on how many gems they donate to the cause

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

Has someone pulled off that civil war mod thing? It would be an interesting, though slow, way of developing a strategy guide.

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

At least it would give us all an idea of who might be best to write the strategy guides. Note the word "guides". I do not think that anyone is likely to be the best choice for the guides of all nations in all game types

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

Good lord, no. First, the scope of a full guide is horrifying to even imagine. You ever own that Master of Magic strategy guide? You know, the one that actually was released after the game was, vs. 1.31, so it didn't have that false crap. You know, the one bigger than some textbooks. I fear Dom3 would turn out worse, but I just might be imagining it.

Ignoring who's best to write the guides, it might give us an idea (especially if we had a record/replay feature like RTS) who has the best idea on how to design and use a pretender.

Personally, I just want an excuse, any excuse, to get involved in as many MP games as I can.

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

Isn't Eyes of God unavoidably dispelled by Fate of Oedipus, no matter how many gems were put in?

I like the idea of paying the GM for better quality data. If only there were a way to automate it... but I don't think it's possible, since the program would somehow have to know how much gold was paid to the GM, and it can't do that without opening the game and reading the messages (which would be very smart indeed).

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

messages can be read from the game logs

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

Gandalf, how much information is in the logs? And aren't .2h files not encrypted? Do you think this means someone could write an external AI that could submit its turns with .2h files?

It is a wild idea, but I might even try it if it is true.

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

There is a ton of info in the logs. Who attacks who, what spells are cast, the AI's thinking, sneakings, etc. But its a file that only the host can see.

Its not the same as the .2h files. Unless you know how to turn on debugging and redirect it to the file then you will probably never see a game log even if you are hosting a game.

Its not encrypted. Its a really REALLY big ascii text file. But it could be parsed to gather info. I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread about all of the things that the host can find out. Much of that is from the log files.

Ive also mentioned in another thread parsing out province info and creating an ever-changing world-map like we had in our schoolbooks where each of the owned provinces would be colored for the nation that owned it.

added note: oh yeah, and people already can read .2h files so Im guessing that some future tricks might be possible using .2h files. I would love to see an external program for doing a "human player" as an AI

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

When you say big... Big for a text file, or big for downloading? What size is it, and would it be possible for one of you to upload a log from a finished game? I'd like to take a peek.

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

From a finished game? No way!
Even at its lowest setting its too big to keep more than a turn or two before rotating the log. If you want to see one of those then I will zip one up and move it for you.
http://www.dom3minions.com/games/MegaAI_game.zip
Not a very standard game (its one player and 75 AI's)

Thats with a -d switch. Putting it up to -ddddddd gives you a HUGE file even with just one turn depending on how many players and how many provinces.

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

Okay, I have been looking at the log file It contains TONS of information on things like how the graphics engine is working. There a couple things I would like to know:

1) How are .2h files read? They aren't text files.

2) The game on -ddddddddd gives a lot of good information on nearly every sword swing in battle, and the original positions, but it doesn't give any territory information. I mean things like events, treasury, gems, items, commanders and units and their attributes, recruitment, sites, temples, labs, and forts, scoregraphs, and scouting reports.

The first is just my ignorance, but the second means no external AIs. I would politely ask the devs for a -info or -i command that gave a dump of a player's overall knowledge. It would be fine if it was just another text file. It doesn't need to include battles, b/c the log file has that already.

Thank you,
Fate

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

1) The .2h is a binary file. It gets read by a program, and each character is important. But the people who worked on the God Viewer would be the ones to ask.

2) Im probably being misleading by calling it a game log. Its actually a debugging log. Turning on debugging to get a dump of the games activity is something that programmers add. Its meant more for Johan to see what is going on and what might be a problem. It wasnt really meant as something for us but I have gradually gained more info being put to the log and other output files.

There is also the scores.html which the game can be asked to dump each time it hosts. It looks like this...
http://www.dom3minions.com/games/Massive/scores.html

Vegas Style
 

One more idea, this one relatively simple to implement and focused towards multiplayer.. I call it Vegas rules. As in, "What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas".
I'd go with Orwellian titles like Ministry of Truth.

The basic principle is that there are no rules. Lying and treachery are encouraged- not required - and backstabbing within this game doesn't get held against you in a different game. Though it can certainly lead to consequences within the game.

In more detail:
A. Joining is semi-anonymous. In PBEM, an independent host (llamabeast) might handle this. In a network game, a few simple rules must be followed for joining.
A1). You cannot make a post claiming a faction. The faction goes to the first player uploading to the slot.
A2). You must respect slots where someone else has uploaded a pretender.
A3). You must make a post within 24 hours stating that you have joined the game and uploaded a pretender. You needn't mention the faction, though you may if you wish. You can make this post whenever within the 24 hours. Ideally, it will obscure which nation you selected.

B). Game Play
B1). Vegas rules aren't rules _during_ the game.
B2). Treachery and lies are encouraged, but not necessary. Truth can be a weapon too.
B3). Any backstabbing will be forgiven once the game ends, and shall not affect other games. What happens in Vegas stays in vegas.
B4). Juicy after action reports are encouraged- just be sure to mention that its vegas-style before detailing all your treachery.
B5). Both secret and public alliances are allowed. You can punish betrayal, but you should keep in mind when its to both side's advantage to call off a feud.

Re: Vegas Style
 

I had a similar idea for a game LP - I was going to call it a 'Machiavellian' game.

One problem - how can you do public diplomacy, battle reports on the thread and so on without giving away your identity?

Re: Vegas Style
 

> how can you do public diplomacy, battle reports on the thread and so on without giving away your identity?

In game messaging. But it might be slow.

Re: Vegas Style
 

Alternatively, you could get some instant messaging/chat program that gives you a number as an identity, and allows you to assign an alias, such as Agartha.

For battle reports, you might be able to have a blog or livejournal that allows anonymous/guest posters where you can type in a name each time you post.

Personally, I like the idea somewhat of having to give away your identity to manage really quick diplomacy. There will be a cost to complete anonymity. And to encourage 'coming out', theres the whole bit about "what happens in Vegas" stays in "Vegas". The anonymity lasting simply for joining is enough to prevent a player from designing a specific counter. There could be a definite advantage to not proclaiming you've taken a slot at all- polls to keep track of numbers.

I'm not really familiar with instant messaging clients, so I don't vouch on accuracy. I think maybe IRC or ICQ just assign you a number and let you pick and change an alias to your nation. I do know there are some anonymous online chatrooms, though I haven't used any.

Alternatively, if there was a huge demand for super secret games, maybe there could be something done with a separate forum. A game could be started here, with some discussion going on, and the rest done on a forum where users have to register (to prevent spam), but doesn't display usernames.

Re: Vegas Style
 

One of my game ideas was to do a mega game and assign an email box on the system for each nation. It was part of an effort to have a totally anonymous game.

Re: Vegas Style
 

with a new mega game being discussed, and it being pointed out to me that I need to dig up some of my old ideas for my ghost-town of a server.. it seemed like a good time to bump this thread.

But just to make it more than a bump..
let me add fuel to the fire on the "Civil War" idea that was discussed here. Im not a modder so I have no idea how well this worked but back in the Dom2 days we had a module to do what we needed.
Its still available on Illwinters site

Re: Vegas Style
 

I was thinking about, and hadn't found...
A simple mod nation- Observers.
All national units completely immobile.
10 gold, immobile l4 priests to prevent dom kill.
Custom version of the spell that lets you see everything on the map, costing one astral pearl, one astral magic required.

Still... have a few problems with this. Taking up one global slot for a noncompetitive player, for instance.

The whole point of this nation would be to allow some third party to watch the game - as might happen with a RTS tournament. Could be abused during a game, but if I only release those turns ten turns later, perhaps?

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

Best Reason to play Dominions 3 is the game itself. I need no fancy mods (except cb mod), i play dom every day for several hours and still discover new stuff

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

This is actually about new games, not just mods.
The mod discussed was one to facilitate some of the ideas for new multiplayer games. A way to create an admin account in a game which can watch more of whats going on

Some of us have been playing the game for a couple of years longer than others and we are more willing to try some weird game settings other than the game has in its game-creation menu http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

So?
Now that you read it again, what game are you going to give us?
Your server is getting rusty.

My preferences would be

BLIND EMAIL because you know how I love a game with ore backstabbing and paranoia

MOD AI's but I see you are asking he mod experts for some suggestions there. Don't do a map for soloists with it. Do a game for us

Same as MOD AI's but mix in MEGA-GAME (all 62 nations and AIs filling to 80 players) and also HEADSTART the AI's 10 or 20 turns

Maybe your CHAOS stuff, or the one with a mod that randomly changes things all thru the game. But only if it's offered instead of the others I mentioned.\
Get on the ball G!

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

Wikd,

If you want to run a game you can - you're welcome to use my server. You can set it up exactly as you like, blind e-mail, whatever.

I'm not entirely sure why I say this because you're probably the most/only objectionable person on this forum, but still - if you want this stuff it is entirely possible. It would be nice to see you contribute something for a change.

Re: Sitting on the fence
 

Oh don't sound like S-Hombre. At least I never offered to do anything. I'm just prodding G to do something with his server. G knows he needs a good prod. Nobody want those blitz games anymore and a perfectly good server is going to waste.

But it might help if some other nicer talking people maybe offer G some suggestions on what THEY would like him to put on the server. Mega is covered. Emails is covered thanks to you LLamabeast. So what is still not out there for multiplay games? If we don't prod him then he will just do more maps or offer up free ideas for other people to do or diddling in Basic. The server was the only thing that (a fairly large crowd) didnt laugh at.