Capturing Capitols
 

I think that a player should be able to retrieve a portion of the gems and gold when he captures an enemy capitol. There is more than ample historic precendent for the government ending up with a substantial share of a captured cities wealth, after all Napolean financed much of the French economy in his early years by looting conquered territories, and there are countless other examples that I could cite.

The portion I propose would be a variable percentage (using the infamous six-sided dice of course) It could vary between 0 and 50% and still maintain a very realistic approach. You could even include giving a part or all of this loot (at least the gems) to the mages that participated in the castle assault.


Another bonus that one should get from capturing a capitol is a random probability of recruiting some of that nations troops and/or commanders. In this aspect the historic precedent is enormous. Again I would use the six sided dice with a low probability of success.

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

But players can easily get rid of their wealth by racking up pd before the final siege or giving it away. Gems are similar as they can be used in the final fight, given away to others or simply given to commanders to go down with them.

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

I agree with this, but I will go further and change 1 aspect of it. When you capture a players last laboratory you should capture 100% of all magic items still left in it and 100% of any gems, blood slaves and gold.

Shovah32 is of course right that a determined player can spite a attacker by getting rid of all his gems, gold and magic items but you should still be able to capture anything he has not disposed of. Rather than the gems, gold and magic items just disappearing into thin air.

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

Even more incentive to dispose of them.

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

The issue is (as Shovah has pointed out) that this will not enable you to gain magic items, gems or gold from a capital. It will just require your opponent to be subject to yet more micromanagement as he will surely dispose of the assets. In single player games though, this would work as intended.

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

I think that a random chance of being able to recruit units would be hard to do. It already is kindof kludged in with the magic sites defining nationals. Altho if you wanted to, it might be possible to create a map to play on which would make those "capturable". That might be a fun game alternative. I should experiment and see if I can break that.

On the "spoils to the conqueror" thing, that might be easier. The contents of the lab be "dumped" onto the battleground as if it was being carried by commanders with the same random chances of being picked up.

But another consideration is that labs are all inter-linked. How would you handle it if his capital was taken when he has another lab someplace else? Should EVERY lab taken offer a percentage of the take? Should only the last one?

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

One of the reasons I would like to see the conquerer get the spoils is it would encourage more attacking play in MP. Often you can end up with a stalemate situation abit like this:-

3 Players ABC, roughly the same in power. None dares attack each another because the player not involved in the war will wait until the 2 warring factions exhaust themselves or until one as nearly defeated the other and then move in and grab everything. Seen it done many times.

To a certain extent Dominions 3 rewards those players who sit on there butts building, building, avoiding wars until later in the game and only attacking the weak or war exhausted.

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

It's not inconcievable for a player to lose their last lab, and still being far from defeat. Especially when you take lab-destroying events into account.

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

The issue is more complicated. What happens if you capture a capital without killing a player? Do you still get thier money and gems?

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

In MP it definitely just serves to increase micromanagement. Before their capital gets taken over, people would send all their stuff to an ally, after the capital is taken over, send the stuff back.

Capturable site would be better. I would suggest adding a site to each capital only national site that mimics the national troops, but at a slightly lower stats to reflect non native conquerors recruiting them. Perhaps even eliminating sacred status, or increasing costs. Would require a big mod though.

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

On second thought, bad idea. This would just lead to "let's exchange capitals for a few turns" deals between allies.

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

I think if capitals had a higher gem income there would be much more incentive to try and capture them. I would consider making/using a mod which simply doubled home province gem income.

So EA - 12 gems total
MA - 10 gems total
LA - 8 gems total

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

Or a map. A map could be created which set starting positions and also assigned a next door province with extra magic sites. MAYBE even duplicate the capitals sites but I havent tested that yet.

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

If (make that a big IF) the ability to modify or assign units to custom population types in a map file were added, it would be easy to allow recruitment of specific national units underneath the normal nationals which become disabled when you capture the cap. (Are you listening JK/KO? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif )

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

Capturing gems:

I generally like the idea of plundering capitols, but it was decided against in the early days of dom-ppp. There are several reasons to this. Micromanagement is one. Interconnection of labs another. You could say that all gems are transported to the metaphysical lab of everywhere after all is lost, to keep the realism http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Also treasuries are interconnected. The micromanagement heavy and realistic solution is of course to separate the economy. One city, one lab. One city one economy. Transport all your gold by cart or with your armies. Keep the salary chest with your soldiers. Risk loosing it when attacked. Baggage trains with supplies. There is no end to the economic and logistical implications of this system. I like it a lot, but it would make dominions an entirely different game. So we skipped the logistics (it's bad enough that gems are moved around http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ) and the effect is that there is no particular effect of plundering a lab or capitol.

A nice solution to this, which I personally like, but also has been decided against, is an autoplunder, so that armies automatically plunder every province, and especially fortress, they capture. Reduce the population by half or more and get some quick gold and merry, unstarving soldiers. I think most players detest this idea, since most players in my experience dislike the downward spiral of dominions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .

Only being able to recruit your own national troops is one of the basic tenets that dominions is built around. When dom-ppp was initially designed we had played a couple of games in which a few players came to be all possible nations at the same time. Take VGA-planets where you were lucky if you could capture an enemy ship an copy it. Soon the fleet of the Evil Empire was made up of Death Stars towed by privateer ships. Same thing in other PBEM games where your army soon turned into rainbow armies of the elite units from every nation. Not much fun either.

To avoid 3 players sitting and farting in their capitols, use VP, preferrably cumulative, one in each capitol and one extra. This way you can't afford sitting around if you are not the leading nation.

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

I've always felt the advantage of a huge spike in gold and gem income was far and away enough to encourage people to conquer capitals. As well as getting rid of one of your opponents.

I know that my capital in Perpetuality is worth more than 7-8 provinces combined.

Jazzepi

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

I don't think elite or special units should be recruitable, but it'd be nice if the non-human capitals had units of the correct species recruitable when captured. These shouldn't be stronger than other indep forces, but it's a tweak, like the species-specific undead, that I think would help immersion. Of course, this isn't a big deal.

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

For my $0.02, this was a good decision. It guarantees more replayability for Dominions, because each game is slightly different depending on your national troops. National spells only increase the variability.

Dom3 would be a lot less fun if Man & Ulm played the same, let alone Abysia, Caelum, and/or Agartha.

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

I agree with Slippery Jims comments here.

However, how about somewhere slightly inbetween, when you conquer another races capital, you have a 1 in 3 chance of being able to recruit that races national troop types/leaders. This always excludes that races sacreds.

So for example, I conquer MA Agarthas capital, a one off check then occurs for MA Agarthas national troops as follows:-

Agarthan scout 1 in 3 chance of still being recruitable.
Cave captain 1 in 3 chance of still being recruitable.
Pale one Captain 1 in 3 chance of still being recruitable.
Agarthan light infantry 1 in 3 chance of still being recruitable.
Agarthan infantry 1 in 3 chance of still being recruitable.
Argathan heavy infantry 1 in 3 chance of still being recruitable.
Pale one soldier 1 in 3 chance of still being recruitable.

Ancient one, attendant of oracles, earth reader, golem crafter, ancient lord and oracle of ancients are all sacred so can never be reruitable by another nation. Those units are dedicated to Agartha and there god only.

Should Agartha reconquer his capital all units are recruitable as normal. But should any other nation conquer it after, the original units who made the 1 in 3 are recruitable, another check is not made.

I believe this would stop all nations morphing into one problem but make capitals more tempting targets with a greater reward for the conquerer. It would also open up more tactics/strategies up for individual nations later in the game.

It would also reflect the nation being enslaved/conquered/ruled by the host nation. Its very unrealistic at the moment that a nations entire conquered population refuse to serve there conquerer. The Roman Empire for example had its armies made up more of auxilleries from conquered nations than soldiers from Rome/Italy.

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

I think Meglobob has gotten it pretty much on the money for recruiting troops when a capitol is conquered. I was thinking some probability between 10 and 25%, but that difference is just a detail. He is exactly right in his statement that sacreds should not be recruitable and his reasoning is irrefutable.

After all, one of the primary features of the game is recruiting independents, so national troops should not be excepted. By excluding sacred troops, the vast majority of the units will not be a significent alteration in the strategy or balence of the game. The foremost benefit that I can see is access to magic paths or levels that are only achievable via empowerment. And by assigning a probability to the recruitment of the units, a player will not be guaranteed anything. By the way, I would program, if possible, a player only getting one swing at the recruitable unit probabilty to forestall handing the capitol back multiple times until a desired unit is deemed recruitable. It wouldn't even be out of the question if there was a cap put on the number of units that can pass the dice roll election process. You might end up getting scout and slinger as your recruitable units. C'est la vie.

This limited choice of other national troops would not limit replayablity but actually enhance it in my opinion. Every time you conquer a capitol new units are entirely up to chance. No different than cool, low probabilty magic sites.

As for the looting of the gem and gold treasury, many of you pointed out the errors in the initial proposal. But I still hold to the concept that a significent portion of the treasury, say 10 to 30% should be up for grabs as dropped battlefield loot. There is little or no historic precedent for a nation to remove 100% of its valuables from the capitol just prior to the crumbling of its walls. A player should be penalized finacially as well as physically when he manages to lose his capitol.

The major downside to this is that comeback eforts would be severly hindered by the gem and gold losses. But then again, I have never come back after a capitol loss anyway. No doubt many have, but I would think almost all of those were instances where the opponent snuck a stealthy army into a poorly defended capitol. And if that is the case, how would the nation have the time to successfully sneak all its treasury away? And wouldn't a primary objective of this sneak attack be looting?

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

Hmmm, sacred mages become even more desirable. You're less of a target since an enemy won't profit as much.
Imagine Ulm suddenly getting access to Pans or Mystics. That'd change the game, and the nature of the nation drastically.

It would be interesting to try out as a mod, but I wouldn't want to see it in the base game.

Maybe just troops. That could be interesting. Add a little variety without a major power boost.

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

For my part, in SP I find Capitols somewhat attractive :
It often allows me to diversify my magic a lot, even if it is not often worthy enougth to make an assault.Some over bonuses would be welcomed, so as to incite people not to just sit before the walls and watch them die from diseases.( as an assault is difficult because of the many mages that often stay in a capitol)

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

I'm getting more enjoyment out of SP now that I've stopped trying to get more variety and diversity. It makes each nation more unique. I refuse to hire mercs now for the same reason, the early game can just turn into the same cost+5 merc-fest, whatever nation I'm playing (unless I'm in the water). But, it wouldn't hurt any to have the proposed Capitol option added, I suppose -- I'd just have to resist the temptation to hire the available units.

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

> I have never come back after a capitol loss anyway.

I have come back from two capitol losses in a MP
game and actually won that one (in an alliance)
If your teleporting SCs are caught in a province
without a lab, a determinate enemy can take your
capitol in two turns and there is not much you can
do about it, especially if you have sent your
mages to the front lines.

In addition, in my last game, I gave a capitol back
to the original owner as the price of peace. There
was another nation that needed killing.

I am not opposed to 'looting' capitols, but please
be aware, that will change the gameplay A LOT.

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

I think this might well be a good idea - but should probably include a dominion effect - you should have to displace the conquered nations dominion and replace it with your own before you can incorporate the conquered nations national troops into your army. Maybe even have the requirement that the nation that has lost the capitol be completely destroyed before the "faithful" are willing to be recruits in the army of their conquerer.

I also think there should be some sort of random event in captured capitols representing the oppressed nation attempting to rise once again - maybe even with a low power AI controlled pretender leading the rebellion (this would only occur should the orignal pretender have been completely defeated).

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

Think of what you are saying:

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

Think of what you are saying:
"I want a nations specific loyalists, to be loyal to me."

No. They ONLY serve their nation.
Think of it, if one (or more) random nationalist(s) were to stray into a Capitol you conquered, not only would you kill them all, you wouldn't even THINK of asking them to join you.
{Postscriptum: they would not.}

Be content with having all their gem sites.

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

I am not suggesting its a big deal.

But I still think there is some merit in the idea - I think sacred units certainly shouldn't be recruitable as they are the hard core loyalists but the remaining population should be able to yield recruits that reflect the nature of the newly conquered population.

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

I think the main beef people have with conquered capitols is that it seems silly there suddenly is no mark of previous population at all. Quite genocidal, these religious wars.

On way to make capitols 'remember' what they were while not getting overpowered would be to switch the indy poptype of capital city to correspond the nation. Like, conquer C'tis and you get the indy lizards, i.e. Lizard Warrior and Shamen; conquer Machaka and there are Lion Tribals; with Man a Knight province; Marverni yields some tribals; Sauromatia those water amazons; Ape nation gets the markata indy troops.

Many of the corresponding indy - nation pairs are already there, and you can find them anyway if you're lucky. This would represent conquered capitols yielding new kind of troops, but who don't benefit from the culture of past.

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

I love Atul's idea.

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

True, it lacks versimilitude, but it's just about as silly as the fact that once you capture an enemy capital you are suddenly able to recruit thousands of your own Marverni Nobles or whatever there. Where did all the Marvernis come from, when the whole 30,000 population of the capital was Abysians one turn ago?

I'm not opposed to the idea of some extra reward from capturing a capital, but I don't mind the way it is right now either.

-Max

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

_Very_ fanatical settlers. After aforementioned genocide. :p

I think the current situation is OK, but the suggestion about indy types was to address the complaints. No way I'd like to see the actual nationals in the roster, after all every nation has two sides - the breedstock and the culture. And the culture, that's something you're wiping out immediately.

Re: Capturing Capitols
 

The indy idea isn't new. I think SemiRandom could do it, as well.

We're still missing poptypes for most nations, though. Marignon and Arcos would give some kind of indies (crossbows, and inferior spear infantry), but we'd need something for the 'Heims, and Abysia (humanbred), and R'lyeh, etc.