use of bane lords
 

hi all,

newbie question here. I just started playing Dom3 and having great fun trying out its endless posibilities, with a lot of help from the posts on this forum.

My question is this. I was fighting C'tis (those bastard lizards), who kept overwhelming me with huge armies consisting of some elite units but mostly low-level militias. I am playing Vanheim. So I thought i would summon some bane lords and give them some equipment, so they could take care of the large amounts of low-level units. So i gave two bane lords the following kit: boots of quickness, swords of swiftness, lucky shield, horror helmet / the helmet that strikes with lighning by itself, and the cloak that makes them ethearal, and each a ring of regeneration and a fire pearl (? the fire thing that gives increased attack).

So off they went, and the first two battles they did exactly what was expected, and killed and routed some huge armies. The third time seemed to go even better. The army C'tis sent (I was now defending) was much smaller but with a lot of strange units, including some type of dragons and what looked like a few huge magical dogs. At first all went well, despite looking fearsome these big units couldn't touch my ethearal (?) / quick bane twins (as i called them), and quickly got killed. However, then some commander in the back started casting 'smite' and 'banishment', combined with 'paralyze'.... it took a few more rounds but that was the end of my bane lords..

So to get to the point (sorry for being so elaborate): what could i have done (if anyting) to make them less vulnerable to those spells? Would increased magic resistance help, e.g. by an amulet of antimagic? I think the bane lords come with standard antimagic of 16, is that low or high?

Any help would be welcome... also because in a few turns i will be able to summon wraith lords which i understand are even more formidable (but being undead have the same weakness for those magic spells)...

Re: use of bane lords
 

Antimagic definitely helps protect undead.

16 is high to start with, but going solo you're going to be targeted a lot. Amulet of Antimagic, maybe also the +S1 helmet, which also boost mr.

Re: use of bane lords
 

Leadened shield has a huge boost to your magic resistance roll.

Jazzepi

Re: use of bane lords
 

thanks for your replies, that's very helpful. I think i have a lead shield lying around already (captured from a fallen hero), so that should be easy. However, then my new bane lords can't have the lucky shield... i could give them a pendant of luck instead of the regeneration ring or the fire pearl... mmmh this whole game is about trade-offs.

How important is luck for an ethearal undead with high magic resistance and regeneration? Does the 50% escape from succesful attacks also apply to magic attacks such as paralyze and banishment? (i guess then it would be important as it would effectively be another boost to magic resistance, right?)

what exactly is the +S1 helmet?

it's gonna take me forever to figure this game out! (that's a good thing:)

if you have any other comments/suggestions on how i equipped those bane lords those would be very welcome too.

Re: use of bane lords
 

I think luck only works for (hp)damage-dealing attacks, but I might be wrong.

+S1 helmet is Starshine Skullcap it requies construction 6 and Astral 3.

Re: use of bane lords
 

Probably the Starshine Skullcap (p276).
I'm unfamiliar with Vanheim, what magic paths do you have available? And what era is this? A dwarf in support could probably get off a couple iron wills at thau3 for +4 MR. You don't need a high level spell like army of lead if you're only buffing a few supercombatants.

Re: use of bane lords
 

I thought Iron Will was Ulm only?

Re: use of bane lords
 

I am playing EA. I think I have ok magic: my mages and top generals (Hangatuns or something) come with air, death, earth and some blood (although i am not using it). My pretender is a Monolith W4F4E4A4. I have empowered/equiped various mages to N3 / F4 / D6, and one of those generals has A5.

Basically the only regular units I build are the Huskarls.

What kind of dwarf is that?

Re: use of bane lords
 

Starshine Skullcap! That's the name I was blocking on. Astral 2 though, I'm pretty sure.

I'd keep the luck. It should apply to banishment (damage), but not paralyze.
Drop the fire pearl.

Fighting against chaff is more about survival and area affect/damage shield than actually killing them with weapons.
Horror helm/Lightning helm and your chill aura are winning the battles as much as the swords are.

Re: use of bane lords
 

Drop the pearl for an antimagic amulet/ring of regen. I would swap the sword of swiftness for a fire/frost/shadow brand too. If the magic continues to be a problem then swap the pearl for a lucky pendant and give your banelords lead shields.

Re: use of bane lords
 

Well... you could try something like a wraith crown to cover the etherealness and maybe absorb a paralyse or two on useess skeletons.

Use a misc slot for antimagic, and the other for luck. Use Charcoal shield/frost brand, reinvig from either armor or boots, and some decent armor.

But that's really not a whole lot better than what you have, and probably more expensive...

Re: use of bane lords
 

The weapon 'Faithful' can be paired with a Lead Shield. Trades offensive power for defense -- luck and MR, specifically.

A bane lord already radiates cold, if memory serves. If you add another area smackdown, pick a different method like fire or life draining. The same goes for your wraith lords. Your wraith lords will also be ethereal, so that frees up a body slot for, say, Armor of Souls (although you're not using blood, pity), Elemental Armor, Flesh Ward (again, blood), Rainbow Armor (don't need the reinvig that much, unless facing fatigue-causing enemies, but the MR boost might help), Stymphalian Wings... more flexibility than usual.

Note that since your wraith lords start with death magic, you should be able to get them to cast Soul Vortex.

Oh, and beware death mages. Dust to Dust / Wither Bones are unresistable; luck and blood vengeance can help, but armor and MR don't.

Re: use of bane lords
 

Flesh ward is a bit much, but I guess it would work pretty well. Is there a nice battlefield ench. to reduce enemy MR? I don't remember one.

Re: use of bane lords
 

Hm, don't think so. The only way you can hurt an enemy's MR outside of pushing magic scale is by feebleminding, IIRC, and there's no real mass-feebleminding. Nether darts can cause feebleminding to those it hits, and there's the Staff of Kurgi :p and the Black Bow of Botulf for smaller-scale feebleminding.

Re: use of bane lords
 

"I thought Iron Will was Ulm only?"
Nope, thats "Tempering the Will", which affects the entire battlefield (friendlies only). Iron Will affects only one square or one unit, I'm not sure which.

"my mages and top generals (Hangatuns or something) come with air, death, earth and some blood (although i am not using it)"

By any chance are you referring to a Hangadrott?
Are you possibly playing Hellheim, not Vanheim?
Or is it a Vanadrott? Vanheim has the dwarven Smiths, but not much death. Hellheim has the Svartalf (dark dwarf) and sacred flyer Dis. Vanheim has no flyers, but does have an immortal.

Re: use of bane lords
 

yes - i am sorry, definitely playing Hellheim and my generals are called Hangadrotts. My mages are the great Svartalfs (too bad they seem to be capital only).

With respect to avoiding my bane lords being targeted with magic all the time, how about having a lot of Shades accompany them? (i am swimming in death gems).

I thought the Sword of Swiftness was a good idea against hordes of low-level enemies. Why do people seem to prefer Frostbrand / firesword?

Re: use of bane lords
 

No, its very good Svartalfs are capital only. It is too unbalancing otherwise.

Bodyguards are good, I believe bodyguards with more hps or a larger size will be targeted instead of your bane lord.

They have a AOE instead of just targeting 1 opponent. Try it and see the difference. Shadow brand is good as well.

Re: use of bane lords
 

Here's what I use for my raiding Bane Lords playing as Helheim:

Fire Brand; it's all about the AoE attacks. (I like Shadow Brand, but my death gems are precious).
Charcoal Shield; there's nothing that does the job more efficiently.
Horror Helm; sometimes you just have to get them to take off. Works best against indies, however.
Flying Boots; More for the strategic move than for battles. Sometimes you can hold out back and wait, then attack rear to catch the random commanders alone. Flexibility and speed are vital, since you can't have a stealthy Bane Lord.
Lucky Amulet; I think we've covered this one. Bane Lords have such high protection naturally that it takes a lucky roll to do any damage. Making even the lucky hits miss half the time will do wonders for their survivability.
Cat Charm/Anti-Magic Amulet; it depends on your enemy and if you've found good indie mages to forge these. The Cat Charm is cheap enough to throw on for a defense bonus, but the AMA might be better if you're facing priests.
I've found that I'm unsatisfied with most of the cheaper armor; you're better off leaving his plate alone.

Finally, choose your battles carefully. You generally want to fight human-strength enemies that can't do much damage and have a tendency to rout. The larger enemies usually have enough strength to punch through one of the Bane Lord's greatest strength: his default armor. The 0 encumbrance is nice, as well - no need for reinvigoration.

Re: use of bane lords
 

Light of the Northern Star. Although that effects your own MR as well, I believe? Or is that the banner of the northern star? The wielder loses MR... hmm could be getting them mixed up.

Re: use of bane lords
 

Yeah, mork is right. The charcoal shield is the #1 anti-personnel "weapon" for an SC, since it is not limited by the number of attacks of the wielder. The only things that can compare to it are really high level weapons that have area effects like the Stone Sword or the Sickle Whose Crop is Pain.

Re: use of bane lords
 

Sword of Swiftness attacks twice, but only against one target. Fire Brand and Frost Brand have a small (which is what exactly?) area attack. Against size 2 humanoids, you're hitting at least three enemies with the side affect, in addition to the weapon itself. I haven't yet used them myself, so I can't say whether its worth it, but that's roughly the reason why they prefer that.

I would not go with Shades, they don't last too long with banishment going around (area attack), but they do have the decent MR. If you have the ability to summon them in quantity, Ghosts help trim the chaff with their fear, 20 hp, and 15 MR. Alternatively, a Behemoth will trample many units underfoot, and absorb a lot of spells at 104 hitpoints- though they'll go down, for sure. If you can cast darkness, it'll hinder non-dead, non-darkvision units. Most importantly, it cuts the precision the spellcasters will use- unless they've summoned undead spellcasters - easily done with EA Ctis. Banishment may be AOE, but has a precision of 0. If you're cutting precision to a quarter of its original value (Ctis - 10), it'll have trouble hitting a thing.
10/4 = 2.5. 2.5/2-2 - barring experience boni, it'll start deviating before it gets past their nose.

At ten spaces, deviation is equal to about 5 squares. Still within AOE 4, easily.

At twenty spaces, max deviation is 10 squares.

Paralyze has 100 precision, unfortunately. And I'm not certain where spell precision falls in the formula, before or after darkness. But assume the worst, it'll hit.

Re: use of bane lords
 

Don't forget rime hauberk (mass cold effect) or ribcage (soul vortex)

Re: use of bane lords
 

This might be a good idea - mages tend to target big units with the unit-specific spells. I usually use Bane Lords as raiders, though.

Re: use of bane lords
 

thanks for all the tips! there seem to be quite a few interesting alternatives to try out, my forgers are going to be busy!

Some more questions:
- i went through great pains to get my bane lords those cloaks that make them ethereal - Robe of Shadows I think. How good is being ethereal really? I think the description says 'very difficult to hit with non-magical weapons'. Also compared to some of the alternatives mentioned (e.g. ribcage or keeping the default armor) that will add real protection values and possibly some other nice bonus effect?
- how do flying boots compare to boots of quickness? I thought quikness gave a defense bonus?
- I may be confused with another item, but wasn't there some issue with the Cat Charm making the wearer go feminine (don't know if that's bad)?

Re: use of bane lords
 

The cat charm dosnt have any bad effects, the text is just there for fun. Boots of quickness give +3 attack, +3 defence and allow you to act twice per round so are far better than flying boots in most cases. Ethereality gives you a 75% chance to ignore a non-magic attack that hits you so(particularly with high defence to reduce hits) it makes you alot tougher. The fact that you cant have your armour with the cloak does make you very vunerable to magic weapons and certain magics. A nice combination is boots of stone(grants high natural protection) and robe of shadows so you dont sacrifice much protection but i wouldnt reccomend it for you because you would lose quickness which is very useful.

Re: use of bane lords
 

The stoneskin books also reduces your resistance to cold, if memory serves. This might be bad for commanders that naturally radiate cold.

A Wraith Crown gives etherealness from a head slot, as well as spawning low-level undead at the start of battle, but is quite expensive. Not as useful for wraith lords...

Re: use of bane lords
 

You are getting some good advice.

Bane Lord ideally should be equipped with(and this is at constr 4, obviously better items exist down the research tree):

Weapon Fire Brand: This is a no brainer, aoe attack and fire resist

Shield-Charcoal shield or eyeshield are both good. Lucky coin is also good.

Body-something light weight to increase his movement, that also has high protection:chain mail displacement or silver hauberk are both excellent.

Helm-Horror helm at const 4 is nice, obviously if you are going against a race with units immune to fear or a fire mage race, you want 100 percent fr over fear.

Boot-quickness are best, but that is const 6. Since you are there in your present game, stick with those. If you were cranking out a bane lord at constr 4, go with brimstone boots for the 100 fr and extra str.

Misc slots:how much mr do you really need? In a mp game when you are being mind hunted etc, it can never be TOO high. But In a sp game, I think you are fine with the luck pendant and ring regen.

A bane lord that is regenerating at 7 per turn is hard to kill with a smites, especially when they have only a 50 percent chance of landing.

But against a race like ctis, with their level 3 priests, or other races with high level priests, then the advice to forego offense for defense kicks in.

I would never discard luck or regen. you need them both in some form in my opinion. Maybe go with faithful weapon, lead shield, brimstone boots, horror helm, chain mail of displacement, and the ring of regeneration and the amulet of antimagic if you are facing a nation with tons of priests that smite.

The advantage of the charcoal shield, especially when combined with the horror helm, is you may be able to win even if paralyzed. Units that strike you take damage and are subject to fear effect of the helm and may rout.

So the long answer is, there is no one best answer. much depends on who you are fighting, and what types of damage and units they are using.

Re: use of bane lords
 

One nice item is rainbow armor, although you have to be living to take advantage of the reinvigoration. It provides MR, though, which is invaluable.

Re: use of bane lords
 

You don't necessarily need regen if you heal afflictions and have high HP. Carrion Dragon can get away with it, for instance. Bane Lord can do without it only if you're soul vortexing, at which point I still wouldn't casually drop it, since not everything can be life-drained.

Re: use of bane lords
 

I'm sure you mean Wraith Lord.

Re: use of bane lords
 

Careful there, (almost) no flavor text in this game is 'just for fun' Apparently the Cat Charm reduces the seduction chance of male seducers. (Not such a huge issue when equiping banelords I admit, but hey...) Similarly, the Bear Claw Talisman is supposed to reduce the seduction chance of female seducers. Unless it's just myths I've been hearing...

Re: use of bane lords
 

"One nice item is rainbow armor, although you have to be living to take advantage of the reinvigoration. It provides MR, though, which is invaluable."

The part about having to be living to take advantage of reinvigoration is incorrect. Bane Lords get the benefit of that.

Personally though, I do not see the rainbow armor's prot value as what i would like for a banelord thug.

Re: use of bane lords
 

If you are having trouble with magic switch to:

Frostbrand, lead shield, starshine cap, ring of regen, lucky amulet, boots of quickness. dont really need to mess with the armor slot. The starshine cap and lead shield will boost magic resistance. high protection and luck should protect you against most chaff except lances and Ctiss does not have any of those. Frostbrand does area cold damage which is nice vs the cold blooded lizards.

My ultimate banelord at constuction level 6 regardless of gem cost would be:
Head:Wraith crown (etheral)
Weapon: The blood axe that inflicts chest wounds (also gives beserker +2) 5 blood slave cost.
Shield: Charcoal shield
Body: Hydra skin armor (regeneration)
Boots:Quickness
Misc1: lucky amulet
Misc2: amulet of magic resistance

I like the axe because of the beserker. Hate it when they run away. Let their cold aura and fire shild do the killing. Etherealness, luck, regen and armor for survivability. 1 boost to magic resistance which is normally adequate vs the AI.

Re: use of bane lords
 

On a 0-enc unit like a bane/wraith lord, its better to use Jade Armor and save your boot slot for Boots of Flying since they take no penalty from encumbrance.

Re: use of bane lords
 

Allright, last night I summoned three new bane lords and gave them variously mixed equipment following the suggestions made above:
- all had Cloak of Shadows and a sword with area damage (Frostbrand, Firebrand or Shadowbrand) and a ring of regeneration
- one I gave the leadshield, amulet of anti-magic, and skullcap in order to have the ultimate anti-magic protection. The other two got various offensive equipment.

I sent them to my frontlines with C'tis (large battles every turn), where I had a scout keep track of the mage/magic creature army that had killed my previous bane lords. I attacked them in a province with high PD and the same scenario seemed to unfold: my bane lords quickly (very quickly with their new swords; area damage is awesome indeed!) took care of PD and some other units, but there was a whole bunch of commanders including (i think) 4 or 5 priests, which started with the banishment / smite spells, doing some damage, before the paralyze spells came (that killed me the last time). Indeed, one of my bane lords became a paralyzed sitting duck, and another was losing a lot of HP to the magic spells while taking a (relatively) long time to kill a magic being (I suspect it was resistant to fire, because this bane lord had the fire sword). For some reason the paralyze spell didn't seem to stick to this bane lord (it was cast a few times, but perhaps all on the same target? Can it be resisted at all?). However, the third bane lord (with the high MR) hardly had a scratch and once he reached the back end of the field really massacred those commanders with his Frostbrand sword. All three of my bane lords survived, although one in particular (the paralyzed one) was very close. All in all a great and honorable revenge!!

So thanks for all the tips. I am now two turns away from having a first Wraith lord. Since he comes already being ethereal, how does that change the optimum outfit? Do they work well in a combined team with Bane Lords?

I like the idea of the blood axe, I think I have some guys who can forge that so i'll give it a try. Does it come with area damage?

Re: use of bane lords
 

Nah, wraith lords are immortal, and more expensive/difficult to get than bane lords. Personally, I wouldn't even bother with bane lords, I'd just wait for wraith lords, but the subject at hand is the bane lord, not the wraith lord.

Re: use of bane lords
 

Really? But Bane Lords seem already quite formidable? Are you saying Wraith Lords will be that much better?

Re: use of bane lords
 

Does anyone really kit out their Wraith Lords? I don't have any experience with them yet, but it just doesn't seem worth it to me. Maybe put some cheap stuff on them, but anything over 10-15 gems per slot seems like too much. I'd try to make the majority of them 5 gem items too.

This is all in regard to their immortality.

Re: use of bane lords
 

Slightly lower health on wraithlords(although if your SC is taking damage they will probably die quite quickly) but +2 attack and defence, fear+3, death 3(soul vortex), built in ethereality, +1 magic resistance AND immortality which means you only lose your equipment(keeping heroic wraithlords AND improving their abilities through the bonus dying grants) if you happen to die in your dominion.

Re: use of bane lords
 

Where did I say that you have to be living to take advantage of it? It just happens to be useless on a guy who has 0 encumberance for melee attacks and won't be casting spells.

Re: use of bane lords
 

What about Jade Armor, so you can leave off the boots of quickness, and go ahead and equip flying boots? That's the way I've always kitted them out.

Re: use of bane lords
 

I often go that way too but sometimes theres something nice you would like on their body/you dont have access to jade armour.

Re: use of bane lords
 

That sounds impressive, can't wait to try these guys out.
What do the bonus dying grants bring? Does this mean it could be useful to send your wraith lords out unequipped at first to let them die a heroic death, come back with even better stats, and then equip?

I am in my dominion as long as i have at least one white candle, right?

Death ~ Fame
 

Fame is increased by killing, by dying, and by gaining experience.

Have enough fame to be on the Hall of Fame, and not be a pretender (and also not be any of the unique summons, yes?), and you get a heroic ability that increases so long as you're on the Hall of Fame.

The ability might not be all that useful (ex. Heroic Stupidity might be bad on a mage, and Adept Researcher may not be what you had in mind for a heroic, bloodthirsty Niefel Jarl), but they can be quite nice (extra hp, extra quickness, extra reinvigoration for mages, etc).

Since dying increases fame, if you have nothing better to do with an immortal on a turn, it has no extra gear to lose, and you don't mind it being resent to your capital or possibly bumping somebody off the HoF, it might as well die. :p

Re: Death ~ Fame
 

Dying's not worth much fame at all, you'd be better off killing whatever it was you're suiciding on...plus you ought to have better things to do with a 40-gem summon that give him some marginal bump to his HoF stats.

Re: Death ~ Fame
 

I thought that the unique summons could have heroic abilities?
I coulda sworn I had Anthrax running around with heroic toughness or something..

Re: Death ~ Fame
 

Unique summons can. Only pretenders don't get heroic abilities.

Re: Death ~ Fame
 

I believe uniques can't have heroics. They could in dom2, and possibly in dom3.01, but I'm pretty sure they can't anymore.

Uniques are kind of unique heroes in their own right. Unexpected heroes on the other hand are the ones that really surprise us with exeptional stunts. No one is surprised if Mastema, the adversary, is cruel. It is after all his metaphysical role. Mugabe on the other hand surprise and scare people all over the world.

Re: Death ~ Fame
 

Ok. I was going to add, "unless it had changed recently"

I must have been remembering dom2 or early dom3 games.

Re: Death ~ Fame
 

The uniques can in my Dom3.. It probably changed with 3.08 (which i cant be bothered downloading..) Plus I like my heroically tough Anthrax http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif