Fleet orders vs ship orders
 

Question:

Let's say I design a missile ship and set the strategy for that kind of ship to "Maximum weapons range". Then I create a fleet which includes variuos other ships (PD, etc) as well as some of these missile ships. The Fleet orders are "Bull formation, Optimal weapons range". I then send the fleet to attack something in strategic combat (PBEM). Will the missile ships follow the strategy of their ship design, or of the fleet?

If they follow fleet orders, they may get too close to the action and need more shields. And their "ship type" orders would only ever kick in if they attack something solo (no fleet).
However if it turns out that fleet orders always supercede specific ship type strategy ...why use ship type strayegy ?

Also, under empire options, strategies, you can set what type of units will break your formation. Does anyone know how exactly this works and how to use it to your advantage?

Re: Fleet orders vs ship orders
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Also, under empire options, strategies, you can set what type of units will break your formation. Does anyone know how exactly this works and how to use it to your advantage?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Try using it to have your Missile ships break off and follow their "max range" strat, rather than following the beamer fleet in.

Or, try the opposite, breaking off the beamers so they can swarm more effectively, and leaving the fleet of Missile ships to maintain max range.

Re: Fleet orders vs ship orders
 

That won't work, because you can only set planets, ships, satelites, fighters, colony ships, transports, etc to break formation. But your fleet is composed totally of ships!

Phoenix-D

Re: Fleet orders vs ship orders
 

SJ:

How do I order attack ships (just missile ships, not ALL attack ships) to break formation?

And my original question stands: when, and if so, for how long, do fleet orders supercede ship type orders/strategies?

Re: Fleet orders vs ship orders
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How do I order attack ships (just missile ships, not ALL attack ships) to break formation?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I was just suggesting that you classify your missile ships as transports. (or, alternatively the beam ships)

Whether you can do that by giving them a design type of "transport", or make them using freighter hulls, you should be able to do it somehow.

Then, the ships would break formation on turn 1 of battle, and proceed to their objectives independently, following the only remaining strategy, their individual one.

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[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 27 June 2001).]

Re: Fleet orders vs ship orders
 

Part of me wonders if the option to break formation works... Heres my reasoning, if a ship is to break formation, it should use its own, default, strategy. BUT if I include a ship that is SUPPOSE to break formation, it doesn't.(All my strats have EVERYTHING break formation) For example, I had a troop transport that wouldn't attack the planet while in the fleet, but would if I removed it from the fleet first. So my question is, what is 'break formation' suppose to do? Oh, and while I'm talking about strats... can we PLEASE get the new options (damage limits, and damage till weapons gone) put in the files?!?

Re: Fleet orders vs ship orders
 

How is a ship classified as a transport? By the hull?
If so, you could use large transports, and put missiles on them. The extra space that has to go to cargo can store spare fighters for your carriers or troops for the assault transports.

You missile ships could then be ordered to break formation and stay at max range.

Re: Fleet orders vs ship orders
 

Uh, guys? How does a PLANET break formation? I mean, how could it BE in a formation is the first place?

The way I read the AI_Strategy file, your ships/units break formation when these are your targets.

Interpreting here, I would hazard the guess that if part of a fleet, the fleet "break formation" rules are applied. If merely a "group" (ie fighters) then the ship rules.

Can anyone confirm?


Also, the "attack ship" etc. would be based upon the design "type" classification. The AI uses this when putting together it's fleets and Groups. The Human player is of course free to ignore the typing, but this may account for some of the confusing results when the AI applies rules.

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"All sources are dubious until their reliabilty has been repeatedly proven. Even then their information should be independently verified." - The unwritten "spooks handbook"


[This message has been edited by Dubious (edited 28 June 2001).]

Re: Fleet orders vs ship orders
 

Dubious,

I tend(ed) to interpret break formation the same way. e.g. if we see this thing, break formation. Others say that it should be " if these things are in your fleet" (e.g transports) they will break formation (flee to the corner). That seems plausible too.

All in all the whole area is still a mystery to me.

Re: Fleet orders vs ship orders
 

According to the manual..

"Formation
Types the break formation These selections determine whether these types of vehicles will break formation when they are in combat. By default, all vehicles that are in a fleet will be part of that fleet's formation when combat begins. However, some vehicles you do not want to stay in formation while the rest of the group engages the enemy. "

Phoenix-D

Re: Fleet orders vs ship orders
 

Agree that it COULD be interpreted either way. However, the AI_Strategies file includes "don't fire on" settings as well as "break" settings and "type priorities" for the same types. This leads me to conclude the proper interpretation is "targets".

Regardless of our interpretations, we need some testing to confirm.


------------------
"All sources are dubious until their reliabilty has been repeatedly proven. Even then their information should be independently verified." - The unwritten "spooks handbook"

Re: Fleet orders vs ship orders
 

Pheonix-D: Just one of the areas of the documentation which has some unfortunate wording.

I read this as "these types [of targets] cause [the ships the settings are defined for] to break [out of] formation". The bit about part of the fleet departing formation while the other continues increases my [new] feeling the entire fleet can break formation under fleet settings while specific ship settings can cause them to break formation if their specific conditions say so. Identical settings would cause this to not be obvious, but a complementary set should clarify.


[This message has been edited by Dubious (edited 28 June 2001).]

Re: Fleet orders vs ship orders
 

Reading it like that doesn't make sense, read the rest of it.

"By default, all vehicles that are in a fleet will be part of that fleet's formation when combat begins. However, some vehicles you do not want to stay in formation while the rest of the group engages the enemy."

That does NOT seem like the entire fleet is breaking formation.

OK, I just did some testing.
Fleet set to: optimum weapons range, default units break away. 4 combat escorts, 1 colony ship. Result? Colony ship breaks formation and runs.

Switched optimum weapons range to all units STAY in formation. Result? Colony ship breaks formation and runs (ookay then)

Phoenix-D

Re: Fleet orders vs ship orders
 

OK, I've done the following now:
(all tests: Side 1, Fleet of 5 Meson escorts, 1 colony ship)

First set: colony ship unarmed. No matter WHAT I select- ships do/don't break, colony ships do/don't break, and no matter the target, the colony ship runs to the upper corner. In fact, any ship without a weapon breaks formation regardless.

EDIT: A ship WITH a weapon will break formation. I haven't bee able to get anything out of this in the sim so far though, other than these two.

Phoenix-D

[This message has been edited by Phoenix-D (edited 28 June 2001).]

Re: Fleet orders vs ship orders
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
[b]
EDIT: A ship WITH a weapon will break formation. I haven't bee able to get anything out of this in the sim so far though, other than these two.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok now you got me even more confused. What exactly are you trying to prove or discover with the test?

Also, ships with no direct fire or missiles will ALways break formation, in my experience. I had to put one beam on my PD ships to keep them in line, else they'd run to the corner.

Lets try to summarize what we learned so far:
Fleet strategy setting determines inital deployment (e.g. arrowhead) and whether the attack ships will even head for the enemy or not. Non-combat support ships wil always leave formation in the first round of combat and try to hide.

The main question still is: at what stage will the various attack ships use:
A) the fleets attack strategy (e.g Max Weapons range)
B) Their own ship type's Primary strategy, set up under ship designs
C) Their own ship type's Secondary strategy, set up under ship designs

AFAIK you can not give an individual ship a strategy different from the one you designed for that ship type.