SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

Hey guys, the SE4 Advanced mod is progressing nicely.

One of the big advantages of the new tech tree is that there is now plenty of space for more components, facilities, research projects, mounts, and all the rest of them. Unfortunately it also means that there's a lot of empty space in there with just the stock data. I've added in a few things like Gun Batteries and Light Missiles for low-end weapons, but I don't yet have enough stuff to fill in everything, *especially the Psychology and Biotech trees.

What I want you guys to do is post your ideas as to what can fit in these tech areas. Feel free to come up with crazy awesome stuff that's never been modded before. Even if you think it can't be done. Then I'll find the ideas that work with the mod and flesh out the details.

The General Tech areas are:
Construction
Electronics
Physics
Weapons
Biotech*
Psychology*

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

Just to give you an idea of the flavor of each area,

Construction is generally hulls and space yards
Electronics is generally sensors and scanners
Physics is generally engines and power generation
Weapons is generally shooty things
Biotech is generally medical and organic extraction
Psychology is generally troops and training, plus a few system bonus facilities

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

Arent there some old wishlist threads around?

Construction: Base Building Pods. Tiny hulls that can barely carry a colonizer. Meant for colonizing moons and fleshing out the colonies of a system.

Biotech: agroponics bay. allows for population expansion enroute

Psychology: Infiltration bay. When on a ship in space over someone elses planet it increases unhappiness? leads to revolts? maybe at a higher level can affect the entire system?

Weapons/Physics: Web Mines. Tractors which slow a ships progress without much harm

Weapons: TnT. Used to blast a moon or asteroid field causing a large amount of resources to be immeadiately available but draining that source 2 or 3 or 4 times the usual amount

Electronics/Biotech: scanners which can detect life in the next system over. Or maybe just a planetary view (the view you have when you have visited but have left)

Weapons: Autolaunchers. A facility which will autolaunch mines each turn. And one for fighters. And one for satellites. and drones. Possibly also a component for star bases and yard ships.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

You have to have a movement point to colonize, so the colony pod will need an engine.

Population can't grow in cargo.

I don't believe anyone was able to get something like the infiltration bay to work, especially for use over enemy planets.

Web mines won't work without causing actual damage. You can make engine-only damage mines, though. None of the damage types that do not do physical damage work on mines.

Weapons can't generate resources. You can make a "scrap mining" type of facility that produces extra resources but lowers planet value (VIP ability works as a negative), but that's about it.

There is no way to implement scanning of other systems, short of cloaked drones. They will hit any mines present, unless you want to make all drones skip minefields in settings.txt:

Drones Can Be Hit By Mines := True

In SE5, you can make a new drone unit type that skips mines, while leaving the others as normal, but such fine-grained control doesn't exist in SE4.

Autolaunching units can be accomplished via repeat orders, though I'm not sure you can do it for planets in sequential movement games, due to launching immediately.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

Just keep brainstorming. I want to hear every idea no matter how outrageous.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

Psychology: a facility that will boost Intell projects in that system

BioTech: cheap facility to increase the tolerance rating on a planet instead of terraforming it

Psych/BioTech: levels needed in each in order to create a cyborg facility which will increase construction rates of space yards

Psych: a "self-help" facility which improves the planets stats in areas such as suicide and accidents caused by depression. Shows up as an increase in "luck". (lowers chance of bad events in that system). overlaps abit with religious trait

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

Web Mines are good. I haven't finished implementing a good warhead and mine system yet. They'll probably exist as Ion Warheads just to be consistent with existing SE4 tech.

I already have several facilities in the Psych area that lower anger, increase production, and decrease the chance of bad events or intel. It might be interesting to have a mobile ship component that does something similar.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

The organic racial trait and the psychic racial trait depend heavily on the Biotech and Psychology trees respectively. I currently need more low-end (1-5) and high-end (20-30) stuff for normal races on those trees.

I also haven't settled on a ship hull size scheme yet. Right now I'm using stock hulls. Like regular SE4 they get progressively bigger. But this may change. What do you think?

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

Gritecon style hulls are a good alternative.

Use maintenance reduction abilities and component scale mounts to make the average ship cost (ie build time) be proportional to size squared.
The average ship maintenance cost can at the same time be proportional to the square root of the size.

Then you can give all the ship hulls right from the beginning, and they'll get used.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

That's not a bad idea. I may do something similar, but I probably won't use the system as it is. I want to avoid scale mounts. Just a personal preference.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

Well, it really isn't doable without mounts.

You could mix it with the P&N style "budget" "normal" and "premium" component mounts if you wanted to... that would hide the scale mountness of it.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

Are there any bugs in SE4 that you'd like to see corrected in SE4 Advanced?

Obviously I can't mess with the .exe, but there are a lot of things I can do by stretching the data files.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

Well, if it is just in the datafiles it probably isn't a bug per se.

Intel and mines are the biggest issues, IMO. Too much of an "all-or-nothing" system there.

For mines, I suggest removing minesweepers completely, and then limiting mines to 15 per sector and enough damage per mine to deal no more than 5% damage to a ship.
That way, minefields have to be spread around in a system, along common paths, and in rings around high value locations, rather than just piling them all up on warppoints and colonies.

The mines won't vaporize fleets, but they are guaranteed to at least do some damage and slow the enemy down when they're in your territory.


Intel...
Definitely have a "saboteurs" tech area which is disableable in the game setup. All offensive projects should require this tech, which starts at max level.
Then turning off damaging intel is one click away for the game masters who don't want it.
Sticking with just spying operations makes intel less overwhelming, but still useful.

Counter intel will also need to be reworked, eliminated or converted to "intel sabotage" projects so that you can't just make a magic wall against spies.

Having helpful intel projects to use on your friends is also a nice idea. For example:
- Officer Exchange Program: INCREASES the target ship's experience by +1%
- Polluter sabotage: INCREASES the target planet's conditions rating by a small amount.

Increasing the target's happiness is a good one too. Propaganda project maybe?
There aren't too many intel projects which actually work in reverse. Supply drain for example can't be negative, unfortunately.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

"No percentage damage" for mine fields is a good example of a hard-coded bug that can be worked around by altering the data files.

I think that mine sweepers still have to be there. But instead of limiting mines to 15 per sector, I'm simply going to take away their inherent cloaking ability. That way when an enemy sees the mines with their own eyes they will have to stop and navigate around mined sectors. That will slow them down.

Maybe stealthed mines will come in later techs, but they will still be detectable with some level of sensors.


Those are also some good ideas for intel projects. I agree that Sabotage needs to be its own area. Also, instead of the defensive intel projects I have facilities that decrease "bad intel" chance in systems. I haven't tested them yet, but they might be a good replacement if they work.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

The problem with sweepers is that they all hit before any mines attack. So if you have sweepers, minefields go pfft.

You just bring enough for the max mines, and then you can fly full speed ahead without fear.
If you increase the maximum mines per sector, then the mines all get dumped on the warppoints... and if you don't bring enough sweepers, your fleet gets vaporized by hundreds of mines... if you do bring enough, you take no damage at all.
At warppoints, you can't see the mines on the far side anyways.

With no minesweepers and a low maximum on mines...
Your fleet moves, and takes a couple hits to armor. Each mine hits a random ship, so the damage is spread out. The low maximum means your fleet is not going to get vaporized.
A bunch of ships will lose a couple armor plates, and if you're unlucky, one of your ships may take two hits.
You can press on if there is low risk of counterattack while you are weak, stop to repair, or send unlucky ships home.


In any case, mines should definitely be a disableable tech area.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

AT was talking about this in another thread.

Mines could be satellites or more than likely drones that have a combat move, cloak, with a kamakazi attack, and a warhead. You emplace them in a sector, hidden, when combat is initiated, they will seek the enemy ships, they have armor, and % chance to be hit or missed. Make appropriate 'minesweeping' weapons, and have these defend your fleet, once the mines or the enemy are destroyed, or combat turns run out, your down. Lather rinse repeat. I guess the only problem I can think f right now is if a cloaked sat will initiate a combat with out specific orders, IE automatically. Also they would be nasty if defending a WP, due to the close proximity to the WP.

If they are drones, I don't know if they will require supplies, and have their automatic self-destruct when they run out of supplies, but it could be considered a good form of maintenance on the minefields, by having to replace them occasionally.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

Combat only starts if a non-cloaked object can see an enemy.
But if you weren't planning on having minefields be stealthy, that would work.

Just launching zero-move drones (with afterburner ability for combat move) into a sector would work fairly well.
Having the monthly supply use until they fizzle would be quite effective at preventing an unlimited number of them from being stashed in a sector.

It will still result in piles instead of system-spanning fields, but that's not too bad.

You should probably include the option of cloaked dronemines; they would be useful around planets and at defense bases...
- Once combat starts with the enemy attacking your planet or base, the dronemines would activate and go forth to kill.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

I like the idea of giving kamikaze satellites combat movement. I don't however like the idea of removing mine sweepers completely. I think it would be better to make them more cumbersome to use. For example, make them 100kT each, very expensive, damage first, remove a maximum of 2 mines per turn, and have a large combat to hit defense minus.

This way you couldn't just slap a few mine sweeping components onto a combat ship. You need some sort of dedicated ship. That ship would be large and expensive since you'll probably want to put more than one sweeper on it to be worthwhile. Therefore it will be slow to build, very weak in combat, and take up a large chunk of resources that could be better used for combat ships. And if the max mines per sector is 200 and a typical sweeper ship has 5 or 6 sweepers on it, the most it could remove per turn is 10 or 12 mines. Meaning it will take about 20 ships to clear a single maxed out mine field. And that's not all.

If the mines are not cloaked, it will be possible to force your opponent to choose which mine fields to clear and which to leave in place. A nice new strategic tool. Too bad the AI won't be able to use it.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

Combat accuracy does not in any way affect the number of mines a sweeper will kill. Every point of sweeping ability is a guaranteed mine kill BEFORE you enter combat.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

I know that. The combat minus is to discourage putting mine sweeping components on combat ships.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

You mean a negative combat sensor ability?
I thought AIs were the only ones who put minesweepers on warships anyways (since they can't balance fleets)

As far as I know, all of the gnarled veterans simply make:
A stack of N dedicated minesweepers (N = max mine stack / number of mines swept per sweeper) plus a set of M warships (where M approaches infinity)

Dedicated sweepers don't need shields guns or armor, so they are far more efficient. And the warships get to use all their tonnage on guns and shields.
And critically important, you're not wasting any tonnage on superfluous sweepers if you add more ships to the fleet.


Think of my "remove minesweeper ability" suggestion as making minesweepers be "destroyed on use", with the bonus of protecting against direct fire too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

Do you guys know if the skip armor damage ability works vs weapon platforms?

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

Units do not have armor, just a pile of hitpoints.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

You could have a bunch of cloaked kamikazi mines, and one command mine, so the command mine would intiate the combat, and the others would join in.

Would that work?

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

Yes, but all of the mines in one stack would have the same visibility level.

You could also have a little mini-base with a SY and a drone launcher.
Repeat build dronemines, and launch drones with repeat orders on.
It builds up the field until they die from supplies as fast as they are built, and the uncloaked mini-base triggers the combat.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

We're talking about drones here, they don't combine into stacks.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

Right. Mines would, drones wouldn't.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

What do you guys think about adding standard tech ruin abilities to a majority of the planets in the game? That way you get a small random technology each time you colonize. That could lead to some nice research surprises and better reflect the way invention and inspiration strike people in real life. Of course, colonization would have to be slowed down a bit.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

Just make that an optional sectortypes.txt file.
Then you can make research disableable in the game setup, and presto, you have a Junkyardwars conversion.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

That's not a bad idea. The mod will need a good ReadMe though so people know they can swap out one sectortypes file for another.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

Junkyard style isn't really appropriate for the default, in my opinion.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

Probably not totally Junkyard style. I guess ruins on every planet is a little overkill. Maybe a more common form of ruin that gives a small boost to the general techs (but not specific ones). Hmm. I think I might be able to do that, but I'm not sure.

I'm just trying to think of ways to make research a little less predictable. Any other suggestions?

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

How about borrowing the "lesser" and "enhanced" racial techs from Dark Nova? E.g. you find some ruin with Symbiotic Armor (a less powerful, more expensive Organic Armor) on it, and you can research that, and if you happen to have the Organic Manipulation racial trait then you can also get Living Armor (a more powerful Organic Armor)?

edit: but the ruin idea you proposed sounds rather GalCiv-ish to me, and I never liked hunting spatial anomalies just for another +2 to weapons damage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

I say go the junkyard style route, but less ruins. That way occasionally you get a boost to research, but no uber tech.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

Are there multiple choices available for large universe mods? I like large maps but I dont like all the other changes that came with it.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

Erm... you can easily get a large universe just by editing max number of systems in settings.txt.

Re: SE4 Advanced brainstorming
 

Erm... thanks.