Iran\'s Flag
 

Are there any plans to have the Iranian flag change with the change of regimes like alot of other countries do? Right now the only flag is the Islamic Republic's. Any chance of getting the Imperial one?

Cheers

Re: Iran\'s Flag
 

Well, you got me there. I missed that one completly when doing the flag set up when we first released the game and you are the first one to notice

On the to-do list

Don

Re: Iran\'s Flag
 

thanks
maybe no one plays Iran before 1980 :-)

Re: Iran\'s Flag
 

Wasn't "Imperial Iran" that had the best tanks?

Re: Iran\'s Flag
 

they had chieftains... which at the time were pretty good.

Re: Iran\'s Flag
 

Yes, that is what I meant. Better tanks (at least for the period) than they used/bought after their "revolution."

Re: Iran\'s Flag
 

If anyone is up for another what-if mod, an Iranian OOB without the revolution could be quite fun. They had slated about 1000 of what would become the Challenger-1, and were expected to get fair quantities of LAVs, F-16s and other goodies.

Re: Iran\'s Flag
 

Without the revolution they would probably have been one of the best equiped armies in the world. The amount of cool stuff the US and other were selling them was incredible. A well equiped Pro-Western government in the region would have change history quite a bit. No Hezballah. Probably no Iran-Iraq war. Without that no Gulf War I and who knows after that??? Interesting alternative timeline.

Re: Iran\'s Flag
 

"Probably no Iran-Iraq war"

Definitively no Iran-Iraq war. The iraqi attack was born out of opportunism, taking advantage of the iranian weakness. Saddam would not have dared otherwise. My memory is a bit rusty but IIRC there were some clashes in the 70's during the imperial era and the iraqi forces involved were smashed pretty badly.

"No Hezballah"

I would suspect that long as the israeli go into Lebanon as historically did something like Hizballah would probably come out.Even with Iran out of the picture there is still Syria for material support.They might not be as powerful of course.

"If anyone is up for another what-if mod, an Iranian OOB without the revolution could be quite fun."

I have been toying with the idea for some time.If and when I can find some time...

Re: Iran\'s Past
 

I agree with both of you on this, most certainly no Iran-Iraq war since Iraq had signed a reluctant territorial agreement in the late 70s, and only attacked because Iran was supposed to have been weakened by the revolution. Possibly no invasion of Afghanistan by the Soviets as well, since Iran was a powerful US ally in the area and they already had had some border incidents with the Sovs (that's what the F-14s were there for).

I'm not sure about the Gulf War, since Iraq would have remained a sworn enemy led by bad ole Hussein and his famously rational decisions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Bets are that he wouldn't have the temptation to invade Quwait with the full Iranian power (and US/NATO backing) looming over his head. A India/Pakistan-style local cold war with occasional clashes would make more sense.

As Marcello said, Hizbollah is another matter, since some opposition would certainly have sprung out in Lebanon. Remains to be decided why the revolution wouldn't have taken place. Would Khomeini and his gang still hang around somewhere? If so, with which kind of support? I guess he could end up in Lebanon to preach holy war against Israel much like he did from Tehran IRL and whip up a local Hezbollah-equivalent, maybe with opportunist support from Syria or some other neighbor. Turns out kind of like Bin Laden's story in reverse... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
The strategical situation and motivations behind the Hezbollah's actions would be quite different of course.

Re: Iran\'s Past
 

"I'm not sure about the Gulf War, since Iraq would have remained a sworn enemy led by bad ole Hussein and his famously rational decisions"

The Gulf War was largely a byproduct of the Iran Iraq war; Saddam ended the war with the most powerful army in the area and a bottomless pool of red ink. Seizing an oil rich emirate they had territorial claims on seemed a decent way out of the conudrum. Take away this and add a powerful neighbor armed to the teeth and the whole thing suddenly becomes a lot less attractive.

Re: Iran\'s Past
 

Interesting take on Afghanistan PlasmaKrab. I hadn't thought of that. The invasion was in December 1979 and the Shah was left in February. Maybe one of the factors was that the Soviets felt "Western" weakness in the region. Without that invasion, we may not have had Osama and the Taliban... I had never thought on how much history of the region was affected by the Iranian Revolution.

Re: Iran\'s Past
 

That's what Iranian exiles keep telling me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Take the Afghanistan story with a grain of salt, but I think a strong presence of pro-western forces just next door would have been a showstopper for the Soviets. As I said, they had a history of cross-border provocations and fly-overs with pre-revolution Iran.
Not 100% certain it would have stopped them though, after all China next door didn't prevent the US from intervening in Vietnam. Maybe more limited support for the communist Afghan regime?

OTOH the Taliban have not much to do with the Soviets. Remember Afghanistan was in a permanent state of near civil war long before the Soviet intervention. Had they not invaded, the Afghan government would probably have crumbled on itself or been overthrown anyway, and event would have ensued much like they did IRL, maybe at a slower pace.

Re: Iran\'s Past
 

Had the Soviets not invaded the "Communist" government's collaps by the warlords would have lead to a similar situation as now. Maybe Pakistan or the Shah would have seen it fit for including some poor warlord's or others territory into their own.
The question is how long the Shah's government would have in any way had a chance of sustainability anyways. He was a brutal dictator, and not very well loved by his people. One has to remember that the "Islamic Revolution" only took over after a mainly non religious revolt had the Shah fleeing already, the movement having achieved many democratic successes in 1977-1978. Besides he was already exiled in 1951 for a first time, and only returned after an US supported coup d'état in 1953...

Re: Iran\'s Past
 

Sources differ on all that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I'm not sure we will ever get the whole story.

I won't start a debate over whether the revolution was justified or supported by the people or anything. That's not what we are here for, and I guess we're off-topic enough as it is...

I agree that there are chances the Afghan history wouldn't have changed that much though. Now the whole idea of the whole off-topic debate is what the Iranian OOB would have looked like, had the revolution not happened. Not sure that "revolution happens the next year" is the most constructive answer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Not that I mean it couldn't have happened, of course.

I mean no offense here, but bear in mind that if we start discussing the hows and whys of the revolution, we'll end up in a few weeks and ten pages waaaay besides the original point of adding the pre-revolution Persian flag to the game.

Regards,

Plasma

Re: Iran\'s Past
 

hmm ghood point Plasma, I got carried away.

I think a monarchic Iran would be equiped with the most modern US equipment today. I guess the US shift towards Saudi Arabia wouldn't have happened so much, so maybe we would see less modern US equipment there.
By today Iran would have the M1A2 as their main battle tank, surely they would have bought Bradley or Warrior as IFV to suplement this force.
For air forces we'd at least see modern Block F-16s, maybe even some F-15s as replacements for the F-14 as an interceptor. With Iran's oil wealth and good relations to the US they might even be a partner in the F-35 program.

Re: Iran\'s Past
 

Good point on Saudi Arabia, it would be interesting if they had kept a more open (non-aligned) purchasing line (spell O-S-O-R-I-O for me... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ).

I'm not sure Imperial Iran would have got so much 100% US hardware, they also had a number of European/unaligned suppliers. Remember they were about to get about 1000 Challenger tanks, which would remain in line for some time. A Magach-like upgrade for their old Pattons would be interesting.

Bradleys are a thought, I think they were on to LAV-25s in any case, and some systems are common. In the 90s CFE-treaty context, it would be interesting to figure if they could get large enough quantities of surplus Leopard-2s in good conditions, for the first good Desert Leopard...

Modern F-16s no doubt, a replacement for the F-14 is a good question. Integrated defense with top-notch Patriots and assorted radars I'd say at first.

Re: Iran\'s Past
 

Well, I have not reaserched Iran extensively (not yet at any rate) but I agree on the not 100% US hardware. I tend to think that for the tanks they might have stayed british and gone for the Challenger 2. I have also my doubts about aquiring used Leopard 2, it would have been much simpler keeping the existing Challenger 1 running.

"Integrated defense with top-notch Patriots and assorted radars I'd say at first."

I should note that in real life they also purchased some soviet stuff, like ZSU-23-4. Given that the US cannot offer much of anything below the area level (basically a bunch of Stinger armed platforms) I think that purchasing some russian air defense systems in the 90's might have been an attractive option (although I should review what are the european offers in this sector to be sure).

Re: Iran\'s Past
 

Not that sure about the Challenger 2 for a lot of reasons. First thing, would it have existed at all? In the first place the Chally 1 was to be used only by Iran, and was taken over by the British Army after the revolution. Had they been accepted by the first customer, what would have been the main tank of the British forces?
Also, it sounds like the early Challenger 1 was plagued by teething problems. How would these have turned out,were the tanks in service half a world away in a not-so-important country? Would the after-market service have been as good as for tanks in Britain? Considering all that, would Iranian tankers keep a fond recollection of British tanks? Good enough to purchase the next one? Upgrading the Challys once purchased goes without saying, but surplus Leo2s (just a thought) would be available soon enough for cheap and give NATO compatibility and upgrade potential.

Thinking about it, I'd say look at the Turkish army and defence industry right now, and apply nearly the same to Iran. Up to the revolution they still had lots of less-than-excellent equipment still running (large army, mind you) which would bear interesting upgrades. Even the AIFV would be a good candidate for the next APC/IFV.

Apparently the JCSS file confirms ZSUs in Iran from the 70s onwards. Given the JCSS also cites SA-6s from the same period, I'd say this is a nice commercial fallout of the 1973 Arab-Israeli war.
As you said, there wasn't much of a Western offer on systems of this level back then anyway. There isn't much still, but in the 80s, how about a nice batch of Chieftain-Marksman SPs? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Other than that, there are a couple of European SAM series that could be of interest, like the Roland, Crotale or Aspide.
There were also a number of Rapier SAMs in service, which could have been upgrade, including to SP Rapiers. I've once seen a pic of a purported domestic SP-Rapier fix on parade, dunno how useable and widespread it could be. SA-15s might be part of the answer...

Thinking about F-15s, there would be a large number of F-4s from the 60s to replace as well, so why not?

Re: Iran\'s Past
 

"Had they been accepted by the first customer, what would have been the main tank of the British forces?"

Dunno. From what I know the Challenger seemed to be in the right spot at the right time. The MBT-80 was going nowhere by 1979 and the Abrams was deemed too fuel thirsty by the british army when it appeared. So basically I think that the only alternative to jumping on the
Shir-2/Challenger bandwagon was going for the
Leopard 2. From a practical point of view it would have been better but politically how would have it gone?
The problem with the surplus Leopard 2 is that they are going to replace old stuff, like M60s or Cold war era export soviet tanks, bringing a substantial qualitative improvement and standardization for NATO armies. If you are already sitting on a thousands of Challenger you would not want used and logistically different tanks which are, give or take, in the same quality range. You would want a new tank, which would be used initially to supplement the Challenger and replacing whatever obsolete old junk was left.
The only reason to buy surplus Leos would be increasing the numbers on the cheap, but would that be necessary?

Re: Iran\'s Past
 

As I see the alternative would be:
1) Ordering a Challenger 2 lookalike, regardless of whether the british Army is on it or not;
2)Buying new Leopard 2;
3)Buying something else like Leclerc or Abrams or whatever.

Option two might be the best but would the germans sell to the Shah?

Re: Iran\'s Past
 

There are two things that may make more tanks necessary past the Challenger era: 1000 tanks may be overambitious as an order, leading to numbers being cut down at some point, and 1000 are probably not going to be enough for the whole army.
Bear in mind that to this day, the IRIA is reported to number something between 350 000 and 500 000 active personal (Pasdaran included), as opposed to probably nearly 1 million in the 70s (350 000 left with 65% desertion rate reported in 1979, grain of salt not included). Even with these figures, reports give between 1600 and 1700 tanks in current service.

I don't know how many tank units were in active service before the revolution, but with such a force, I'd say 1000 tanks is only enough for maybe the best half of the armored units. Like in many countries, rear-echelon units, mech divisions and the like would go on running with older material for some time. And it's this material that would stand replacement or upgrade in the 90s-2000s.

I agree that the British Army would certainly go for the Challenger as well at some point, but I wouldn't call Iran buying a full batch of Challenger-2s later on 100% certain.
Anyways original Challengers with regular updates would be enough to hold the high ground against any neighbor to this day and for the foreseeable future. So buying a new full batch of Leo2A5/M1A2/Challenger2/Leclerc generation in the 90s may not be top priority. We should probably look or a later replacement like what the Turks look like going for these days (i.e. brand new 4th-generation tank).

Point remains about what to do for the rest of the tank fleet. That's where cheap surplus Leo2s and M-60 upgrade packs come in play. There should be at least 500 60s tanks to replace, upgrade and/or convert. Of these quantities (maybe there were significantly more of them before the war?), about 1/3 is Chieftains, 1/3 M-47/48 and 1/3 M-60s, all pre-revolution.
IDK how many of those would remain in service after the introduction of the Challenger, but there would certainly be some pending upgrade

Re: Iran\'s Past
 

The problem with buying Leo2A4 is that while it may be good in the short term you are going to end up with a block obsolescence issue in the long run to deal with, as both would have roughly the same age and tech level.

"That's where cheap surplus Leo2s and M-60 upgrade packs come in play. There should be at least 500 60s tanks to replace, upgrade and/or convert."

For modernization purposes the focus would rather be on the 900-1000 (or whatever, sources seems to differ ) or so Chieftain tanks in service, rather than the M60. I would guess some upgrade, perhaps locally made, to bring them to standars comparable to those of late marks of Chieftain. Then some thought could be given to the M60. M48/47 would be definitively junked. I would say 1000 Challenger, which would still account for a reduction from the original order which was for 1200 Shir 2 IIRC, the 900 or so upgraded Chieftain, say a couple of hundreds of
Chally 2 or whatever and some M60. That is nothing to laugh at. The total armed forces strenght was 500.000 by 1977 IIRC but I cannot cross check ATM.

"brand new 4th-generation tank"

Do you mean T-95/140mm gunned western tanks?

Re: Iran\'s Past
 

You're right, there must have been either high attrition during the war or a typo in one of my sources. 1000 Chieftains would be the bulk of the tank force to replace after the inception of the Shir. Upgrading them to Mk11/12 standard or above would be interesting.
Of course, this considered, the whole Patton fleet would be a secondary concern.

What I meant with a 4th generation tank was a brand new post-2000s one. Only working example I can think of is the Korean K2. The Black Eagle is another project but not yet in its final stage. Make the base requirement 120L55 gun or better, high mobility, hunter-killer/autotracker FCS suite with 2nd-generation TI on both sights, active protection... on a newly designed basis. Don't ask for more details, I'm not too good at this generations game. The idea is just to get a newer design than upgraded 70s/80s tanks (M1A2, Leo2A6, Challenger2E...) which would be not much better than whichever upgrade you could lay over the Shir 2.

Re: Iran\'s Past
 

"You're right, there must have been either high attrition during the war"

Attrition of Chieftain was very high indeed, the iraqis ended up with whole lots filled with them.

"Make the base requirement 120L55 gun or better, high mobility, hunter-killer/autotracker FCS suite with 2nd-generation TI on both sights, active protection... on a newly designed basis"

Frankly nothing of the above requires a new chassis. The gun can be fit in a Leopard 2 or Chally 2 with no problem. The rest is electronic stuff you could fit on pretty much anything.

Re: Iran\'s Past
 

A new chassis is really needed only if you want radically better protection and a design optimized to take a 140mm from the start.

EDIT
Well you could stick a 140mm in a Leo if you wanted (it was done) but I suppose it might be better to have an optimized design with an autoloader from the start. Uparmoring the tank to survive 140/152mm hits is an other matter. Therefore you will probably need a new chassis with some exotic configuration, otherwise there is no need. The K2 is basically an equivalent of the
Leo 2/Chally 2 with a few funny features.