MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

I have been playing MA Shinuyama in a mp game, and it is my 1st time playing the race. While I recognize that not all races are supposed to be equal, and that the game has a much larger fan base of sp rather than mp, I think this race could use a tweak.

The Dai Bakemono is a solid unit. But they are hard to amass early. Envision a sleeping pretender and a dominion 10 Great Wyrm paying you a visit before you can research flaming arrows, or a pack of double 9 blessed vans.

The lack of sacred units also makes it expensive to maintain a large army of any of the tougher units. MA Shinuyama has no calvary or units with shields either.

The O-bakemono is fairly tough, and low resource cost. But it is an expensive unit to maintain as well. And again, the lack of a shield makes them vulnerable as front line troops.

The Kappa, with its unique ability to cripple foes is an appealing choice as an infantry unit. But they suffer greatly from fatigue, and have no shield.

While Shinuyama is certainly not a favored race of mine, I would love to see the Kappa lose it fatigue handicap on land and get a turtle shield. They then would serve as a pricey, but effective mp infantry unit.

And they would not be unbalancing. Compare them to Pangaea's 13 gold infantry unit that also has recuperation, but has a shield. And unlike Pangea's infantry, the Kappa is severely limited with a mr of 8! Obviously any race with mind blasters or smiters would eat them for lunch. Their sub par defense of 9 would be boosted appropriately by the turtle shield.

Since they are not sacred, they could not be beefed up into unstoppable killing machines like EA Lanka's apes. And again they will always be exceptionally vulnerable due to a mr of 8.

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

Kappas actually have very high defense, but if they would use it they would spill even more of their precious head-water and loose all fatigue immediately. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Under water they have no spinal water leakage.

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

Yes,

I understand the theory of the Kappa(and I like it), but unfortunately MA Shinuyama is a land race, not a water race. And while it is huge(at times) to have an amphibious unit, I think they could in MP use some type of unit with a shield, or at the very least, something that can give another race pause from launching an early assault.

Units that can give an SC a limp are nice, but it is a shame they suffer from such penalties in terms of fatigue, no shield, below average defense, and the mr of an elephant!

The low resource cost is sweet, but I think it would be more advantageous to raise it some and remove at least one of their penalties.

My suggestion with the Kappa was just a personal one, as I do really like the kappa, but sadly do not use them on land (and even more sadly there is no water anywhere near my location on the map in the game I am in).

I am sure there are dozens of ways to make Shinuyama better able to compete in the early game in mp. While the races will never be balanced, perhaps rightly so,it would be nice to give each race something to give other races pause besides taking an awake pretender.

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

One person I'm aware of had great success with Shinuyama's province defense. The O'bakemono becomes available at 20 pd, and is half-price at that point.

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

One problem with shields is that they are unthematic for nations based on Japanese history and myth.

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

Agreed on the pd. That is certainly the strong point of the race.

And I am not critical of the race, it has interesting units,just offering a suggestion.

Kappa is not really a Japanese concept though, and I think a turtle shield would fit them well thematically.

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

Kappas are from Japanese mythology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_%28folklore%29

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

Ok,

I stand corrected, but I still think a turtle shield would fit thematically with a Kappa. After all, they wear a turtle shell on their back.

And maybe they would only lose fatigue if they suffer a blow to their head, since that is where the depression is that holds the water.

Or you could let them buy a Shisha, capital only for 250 gold
each!


http://img66.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shishivs6.jpg

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

Of all the units to complain of needing rebalancing, I don't think the Kappa is one of them. Not only are they some of the only high prot/low rec troops in the game, there are always cases were being able to get underwater easy is a niche in itself. They are not that powerful a unit, they are what I think more units should be like- useful in some cases, with interesting advantages and disadvantages.

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

QM,

Obviously you are fairly adept at balance issues, but many races have signature units that discourage early rushes. Say from a dom 10 wyrm, vans, etc.

For instance, MA Pythium has a hydra, many races have a capital only or blessed units. Several races have size 6 tramplers, that when combined with high morale units can be tough early.

What unit, if you do not mind me asking, is that for MA Shinuyama? I understand that some other races also have this vulnerability. While there is nothing wrong with the Kappa as is, I feel the race could use a tweak upwards.

And since the Kappa is such a cool unit, especially with a bone breaking attack, that is the unit i think would be a nice one to boost.

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

I like the fact that Shinyuyama breaks the mold a bit. There should be more nations like it.

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

Shinuyama indeed has a rough time in the early game. Its starting army is pathetic, has no recruitable sacreds, and you noted has no units with shields, and its only really good regular units are somewhat expensive.

But if Shinuyama manages to survive into the mid game, they become damn near juggernauts. Their magic is unparalleled. They can cast site searching spells in 5 magic paths (FEWND). With simple boosters (no unique items or rings of Wizardry, etc.) on their Bakemono sorcerers, they can have mages with F5, W4, E4, or D5 (if you get lucky with your 10% chance, you can even do one better - and also Staffs of Elemental Mastery are also easily within reach).

By late game, they can be spewing out great deals of deadly magic, in combat and ritually. On the battlefield, Fire Arrows is just the tip of the iceberg.

So basically, to pay for all that later game goodness, you have to run the gauntlet in the early game. That's just part of the deal.

So in SP, recruiting indie infantry (w/ shields) ASAP is a good idea. You can do it in MP too, but that wont save you from a nasty rush. Your big tools there will be diplomacy and trade (the wide variety of quality items you can forge should make a nice carrot). That and the realization that sometimes your just screwed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

Agree.

But is there really any downside to giving the Kappa a turtle shield? Even with a shield, MA Shinuyama is not going to jump into the upper pack of MA MP nations. What it will do is give them a viable(though expensive) infantry unit.

Their mages are nice, but at 300 gold expensive. And they start extremely old, demanding 3 growth scale. Though at least they are sacred, so they are not bad to maintain.

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

The downside is that it will move the Kappas, currently a niche unit, into the realm of general infantry unit(high gold cost but 2 attacks, high prot and a shield with low resource cost to boot).

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

MA Shin has no infantry, has no mounted units, has no sacred units. Giving them a high cost infantry unit, with a mr of 8!!!, helps in part to restore the vague idea that is named "balance."

And, if their fatigue is left as is, adding the shield helps, but still leaves them as an overpriced, but very vulnerable infantry unit.

I do see the argument for leaving the Kappa as a niche unit. And I am not saying anything anyone said is "wrong."
But I am of the firm belief the race could use an upward tweak, and that was my suggestion.

I would raise their resource cost some, if a shield is added, but not a ton. Perhaps to 10.

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

If you've been around here for a while, you'll know that unless there was a mistake or a general outcry (which could have been the case for the Glamor change) these sort of changes never happen. Your best option if you feel that Shinu are weak is to make the appeal in the CB mod thread.

I'm just kinda shocked that you think the Kappa are weak; I was very impressed by them when I discovered the indie poptype and used them heavily to take several water provinces.

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

Kappa will not get shields. Mainly for thematic reasons. They could get a cucumber however http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

You could give the Kappa a second attack where they suck the organs out of an enemy through their anus. Maybe a drain life ability http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

Or, poison cloud. They do pass gas for fun.

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

I been waiting for the anus joke the whole time I was reading this thread.
Thanks Foodstamp!

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

Foodstamp delivers!

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

I would take the kappas as recruitables anytime over hyrdas, at thier base game cost. The only thing hydras could maybe be cost effective against is an elephant rush, and Pythium already has tons of astral magic to take care of that. As for 'rush-breaker' units in general, they are basically the same thing as rush units- almost exclusively big tramplers or bless units. If there is something that needs to be fixed here, it's that such a small subsection of units can utterly dominate the early game.

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

Exactly what i was thinking with the hydra-they can stop a herd of size 6 tramplers in their tracks!

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

"Kappa will not get shields. Mainly for thematic reasons. They could get a cucumber however."

Shin. will, however, get a Shishi in Epic Heroes Mod 1.5, which can be summoned at a rate of 1 per turn if the Shin. Epic Hero is alive. And a Shishi is > Kappa with a shield anyway.

Whether a Shishi is greater than a Kappa with a cucumber, however, remains to be seen!

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

I, for one, would love a national hero based on this.

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

That's an awesome story, to bad its so short.
Personally, I'd love to see LA Ulm get vampiric squash. What!? It's legend too. Either Balkan or an urban legend about balkan myths. I'm doing a little digging, trying to find a non-wikipedia source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_watermelon

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

I don't know his sources, but this guy seems to have a longer version.

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

I'm pretty sure a chunk of 20 O-Bakemono can take down a dom-10 wyrm as long as he's not too buffed on bonus dominion HP, I tested it against 1 candle and the wrym went down, and that wasn't even with a sermon of courage going for the bakemono which would help against the fear and the awe...they hit pretty hard.

Re: MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas
 

Good test indeed.

I also think the kappas could give the wyrm a limp even if they could not kill him-if he was solo. However, if he has some allies with him..........

I am not a huge fan of O-Bakemono for the cost, but maybe that is their niche, to kill Wyrms! Though I am not sure their 1 attack would stand up very well against the double 9 blessed vans(but what does?).

If MA Shin. can hold on until they get flaming arrows researched they are ok.