Creature size inconsistencies
 

The sizes of large creatures in Dom3 are often out of whack.

This is only a sample list, since I don't have access to the full unit databases on this computer. However, if people agree that this is a problem, I'd be willing to put my work where my mouth is, and sift through the database to come up with a balanced list of monster size recommendations.

Dragon: 6
Elephant: 6
Kraken: 6
Shark (large): 6
Basalt King: 5
Seraph: 6
Lumber Construct: 5
Cyclops: 5
Father of Winters: 6
Gryphon Rider: 5 (Note that Pegasus Rider = 4)
Catoblepas: 6

Is an elephant really as large as a dragon? Judging by sprites, the Kraken looks much smaller than a dragon, or even than a basalt king. The Seraph looks smaller than a Cyclops, though it does have a huge wingspan when attacking. But should a Cyclops be smaller than a Father of Winters, equal to an amazon on gryphonback? And the Catoblepas seems like it ought to be bull-sized, not elephant-sized.

The shark is an obvious problem: even a great white shark tops out around 5000 lbs, while African elephants can easily be 12000. There's no way a shark should be elephant-sized, let alone dragon-sized.

So: monster sizes don't seem to be broadly consistent. They should be!

Re: Creature size inconsistencies
 

I think dragons should be size 11.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

-Max

P.S. Apologies to Spinal Tap.

Re: Dragon Size & Max
 

Ooh, give those size 11 dragons trampling too! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Seriously, with some characters such as the Titan pretenders, tweaking the size can be dangerous thanks to a certain pair of earth forged boots.

Re: Creature size inconsistencies
 

In reality, sharks are smaller than elephants. But we're talking about a fantasy game here. Also I think there are actually two 'problems' that you're talking about here.

1. Some units are the wrong size.

2. Some sprites are the wrong size. This is only true via comparison.

I don't know much about sizes 5 and 6, but I had a look through some size 3 and 4 units to work out how big I should be drawing some of my mod graphics. I've attached a little image showing some different size units. There doesn't seem to be a huge problem looking at these.

But then you look at a unit like the underwater archmage pretender. Is the sprite too small? Is the size too big? Is it just that all the other size 5-6 units have sprites that are too big?

Re: Creature size inconsistencies
 

what always annoyed meh is the amount of size 6 characters that dont have trampling automatically ..


What the thing doesnt know how to stomp?!?!?!

Re: Creature size inconsistencies
 

Maybe it just doesn't like to.

Maybe it prefers its nice shiny sword.

Re: Creature size inconsistencies
 

I think the kraken is noticeably too small. None of the others have bothered me particularly to be honest.

Re: Dragon Size & Max
 

With a few exceptions, the Titan pretenders are already size 6, and would generally stay that way under my revision. Looking back over the sprites, the Cyclops is indeed a bit smaller than the true Demigod types anyhow. All told, far more things need size reductions (Blood Fountain dragon-sized? Come on!) than need increases.

I'm not enamored of Trampling pretenders; I've seen them get fatigue-slaughtered by large armies even with huge reinvigoration. But that said, I'm well aware of how size increases can significantly beef up a creature with foot slots!

Re: Dragon Size & Max
 

I wish there was a way to _disable_ trampling on a commander. The main reason I
have never used the earth mother in multiplayer is that after the first few turns,
trampling becomes a liability.

Re: Dragon Size & Max
 

A better way of looking at this is, that many creatures are actually larger than size 6 but since size 6 is the limit, therefore, they're listed as 6.

Re: Dragon Size & Max
 

The problem with making a blood fountain smaller is that it makes it vulnerable to tramplers- and it doesn't have that many hitpoints to begin with.

Re: Dragon Size & Max
 

Saulot is right on track!

I didn't expect stuff to be larger than the hydra when we first made dom-ppp. And the square limit of 6 sizepoints makes it a problem to change. Thus size 6 =max size.

Winged critters generally have sixe one higher than their actual size, and they have fx_ressize (might be called #ressize in modding) different from their actual size. Ressize is used to calculate resource cost and feedrates (IIRC).

Also size is more on the width than height of a unit, since it determmines how many units fit in a square.

Gryphon takes up more of a square than a horse - size=4 plus wings - size=5.

This makes fliers a bit better tramplers than they should, but on the other hand you might get buffed by wings perhaps.

Re: Dragon Size & Max
 

Also wouldnt flying creatures be slightly better tramplers anyway? A big creature hitting you from above would be quite damaging after all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: Dragon Size & Max
 

Fliers having wingspan increase size and being better tramplers is fine to me too.

I don't see a problem with a Blood Fountain being size6. There are some big man made fountains IRL. I envision these magic fountains to be more majestic and impressive in size and less like a public drinking fountain.

However, I would envision Dragons and Krakens much bigger than an elephant, especially given the wingspan on dragons. And neither have foot/armor slots in their size6 form.

Re: Dragon Size & Max
 

Yes, it would. Ever been on the receiving end of an owl's claws? I haven't personally, but my dad has been and the results weren't pretty. Half his face was swollen to twice the normal size, he nearly got a concussion and the only thing that saved his eyes were his glasses (thick frames and thick lenses), and the frames were a writeoff).

Mind you, this was a Ural owl, which weighs somewhere around one kilogram and it only hit him once. When you add anything the size of flying tramplers in Dominions... *shudder*

A flying trampler does not need as much mass as a non-flying one simply because Ek=½mv^2 and flying tramplers generally come at you much faster.

Re: Dragon Size & Max
 

Ive done wildlife control and to me a flying trampler would indeed have a bonus. Wings are definetly used to increase the attack ability of large flyers. If its large enough to trample you then the large wings would be used to "buffet". They might not do damage but they do tend to cause the victim to crouch or even be knocked down, which would definetly make the trampling more effective.

Re: Dragon Size & Max
 

If we are aiming for realism than flyers should also have a chance of being "shot down" with any given attack and taking massive damage when they crash into the ground.

Re: Dragon Size & Max
 

Oh, I'm by no means proposing that the size list start going up to 7 (or 11). But if a lot of sizes are legacies from a slightly different scale, why not (have someone) go through and make sure everything is adjusted and balanced on the new scale? Just because there's a reasonable origin for a situation, doesn't mean it can't be improved.

Bigger than a horse, for certain. But is it intended to be bigger than the size=4 pegasus? Or is the pegasus the undersized one?

Re: Dragon Size & Max
 

Oh dear. "Why doesn't someone do X?"

Here's the stock response: Why don't you do it? You're the one who wants it done.

It's easily moddable you know.

Re: Dragon Size & Max
 

As I said in my initial post, I'm absolutely willing to do the work. If there's enough demand, I'll go through the monster list and come up with a revised list of creature sizes.

That being said, I haven't gotten into modding, and I'm probably not going to learn modding just for a way to implement this, so I will need a little help.

But this seems more of a "bug" (no, not a technical bug, but a misconstruction/inconsistency of the game) than an issue of play preference, so a mod may not be the right solution. And who would take the time to utilize a mod for such a gameplay-trivial alteration?

Anyways, the impression I'm gathering from this thread is that most people are happy just the way things are, so unless I hear more voices otherwise we'll all just keep on enjoying our size-6 sharks.

Re: Dragon Size & Max
 

The way I see it, the OP was not so much demanding a fix as asking the community whether a fix was needed.

-Max

Re: Dragon Size & Max
 

I've always thought the size rating was comparitive rather than absolute. In other words, size 2 or so is around man height, size 1 is tiny (child, small dog, rodents etc) and size 6 is "large enough that it makes no difference how big it is, anything mansized is still going to end up as a red stain". Hence Dragons and Elephants are the same size level, but not necessarily the same size.

As for sharks, I've always thought of the Giant Shark as being something more akin to the prehistoric 'double decker bus size' beasties rather than the comparitively small modern equivilent.

Re: Dragon Size & Max
 

Ah yes, Megalodon: 40-50' long, 20-30 tons. I'd say that's a size 6.