armor vs defense stat for SC
 

When building SC's I ususally tend to try and get the highest armor factor possible because I figure it is so much more important than defense stat. I figure a size 6 SC will just get surrounded and the multiple attacks bonus will allow the chaff to hit. Something I wasnt planning for but I just noticed that my SC has a defense value of 36 (39 after quicken self) with the equipment I gave her. How effective is that going to be vs being surrounded?

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

Quite effective. I wouldn't worry about being hit by weapons.

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

If your SC cant rout(not undead/mindless/berserking ect) its probably better to focus on protection unless they have very high base defence.

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

Pretty effective. It means the first 10 enemies attacking you at once (or 5 enemies with 2 attacks each, like cavalry or flagellants) have no realistic chance of hitting, although someone may get lucky once every couple of rounds.

-Max

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

Imho high protection is better than good def.

If you have high protection and the other goodies like body etheral, luck etc. most weapons get negated by your buffs and the few that come through are usually countered by protection.

If you have instead only mediocre or little protection but high def and be and luck etc. even less hits hit you but the few that hit you are much more dangerous and usually lead to afflictions also which cripple your SC. And if you encounter good enemy units, usually blessed units then usually the SC who focuses on defensive is easily killed whereas the protection SC has still chances to survive.

Some troops even have magical weapons, e.g. shadow vestals. They should easily kill your defense SC whereas the protection SC should have a fair chance.

The only condition in which in theory the Armor SC has a disadvantage is vs. Anti-SC-Thugs and such with AN weapons.
But imho usually Anti-SC-Thugs/SCs have a better performance if they are equipped with specific SC counter items which are usually not AN but do double/triple damage vs. the specific SC type like herald lances vs. demon/undead or moon blades vs. magic beeings.

So imho the protection SC is almost always superior to the defense SC.

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

I actually have to disagree with Kristoffer O.

Quite effective. I wouldn't worry about being hit by melee weapons. I would worry about being hit by ranged weapons.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif Fixed.

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

Agreed that Protection is generally less brittle than high Defense, ethereality, etc. The one thing you have to especially watch out for with Protection, though, is fatigue, since even a 30 Protection can take significant damage on a lucky critical hit at fatigue 45 or so.

I've found that Wraith Lords benefit from good Defense because 1.) they already have high natural Prot and Ethereality, 2.) beating good Defense requires swarm tactics, 3.) swarms are just more fodder for Soul Vortex. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

-Max

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

Yeah, high prot is better than high def in the general case. But keep in mind that a strong SC may never really get heavily surrounded, instead killing the majority of the troops that come against them and keeping the numbers reasonable.

Additionally, remember that if you sacrifice too much def to get protection, you could open yourself up to another player using a cheap anti-SC against you.

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

*Insert lifeless swarm here* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

Mandragoras, say. Fear the sleep vines.

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

Actually, skelly spam is all you need. If you're facing a very early supercombatant with no area attack, just keep them fighting until they run away, or fall unconscious. If you've got single d necros, you can just animate one at a time with several, or spend 5 on the world map. Just be prepared to counter any supporting priests.

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

I dunno, it all goes back to that label thing. To me, an SC can by definiton deal with skelly spam.

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

Not if they're the father of frost- then you need to wait until you've climbed the spell tree. I was talking about my experiences with an awake Father of Frost.

Early on, an unequipped Father of Frost (with the right spells), is a super that can take on armies of anything but the undead, with their cold immunity and zero encumberance.

Later, skelly spam counters exist, but I'm talking early game supers. What supers can take out an army of, say, 100 undead within the first year?

I do make it a priority to get reinvig asap, and then fatigue is unworrying, and there's other upgrades I may do.

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

Hmm. Most of my pretenders can take out a 100 strong undead army by turn 12.
Firebrands do wonders. In the one MP game I am at turn 12ish, my pretender has
a firebrand/charcoal shield, reinvigoration 8, regeneration, and casts Air shield,
Quicken self, Stoneskin, Mirror image and Mistform. There is not much that
can faze him except for casters. (Magic resistance is below 21 only because he
tends to fight outside of his domain... of course)

By turn 20ish, he will be invulnerable to ANY amount of ANY troops. Of course, by
then he will be sitting in a lab, because nothing can save a SC from a custom
tailored death squad.

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

An E9N9 Hierophant Centaur has zero encumbrance after reinvig is accounted for. I expect he'd be able to take out 100 undead with some minor equipment.

-Max

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

Funny you should mention that now. I thought I'd get away with casting Gift of Health at a 50% discount site, with AC up. Umor was not amused. The Treelord who cast it was expecting something a little less exciting, so he was only armed with a few swarms and Ardmon's Soul Trap.

Umor managed to increase his HP to 75 (from base 55) by feasting on the little buggers. With MR3 they didn't last very long because of the blood vengeance, otherwise he might have been able to eat a few more.

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

Who's Umor?

Anyways, LA Atlantis doesn't have any access to firemagic, or firebrands. Though access to Frost Brand is guaranteed and shadow brands common enough.

I do get easy access in my build or any nature shaman to +2 reinvig, which is enough to equalize encumbrance.

I ruled out the Frost Brand because of cold resistance on undead, and I just sort of figured that the Shadow Brand wouldn't be any good against undead. But looking at "Leeching Darkness", I see no reason it wouldn't do a number on Undead. Does shadow brand do a number on undead?

How is dual weapons or multiple attack weapons like Wave Breaker factor into the fatigue equation. I know that quickness seems to double fatigue rate, practically speaking, but do the two things I mentioned cost you fatigue once, or twice? And does reinvig take place at the end of the entire combat round, every action, or whatever?

Thanks. Now, about minor equipment, MaxWilson, are you talking construction 2 or less? I don't see how you could take out 100 at one a round before you had to auto-retreat/die, unless I'm overlooking some way to increase your kill rate.

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

My Abysian Prince of darkness with nature 2, earth 4, death 4, blood 3, equipped with 2 firebrands, fireplate, dragon helm, lucky amulet and firestone will take out 100 undead. especially next turn when he gets personal regen. although i wish i had went nature 4, earth 2 instead. so that way i could forge shrouds to keep my old mages alive thru regen.

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

Encumbrance happens once per full action. Wielding two weapons does not double encumbrance, but quickness does. Reinvig happens once per round, so if you have good reinvig quickness can actually hurt you.

Minor equipment: yes, say, gloves of the gladiator, horned helmet, black steel plate. [a little while later] Okay, I retract that conjecture. Even with prot 23 and regen 4, my centaur hierophant only managed to kill 7 of the 48 C'tisian soulless he was up against. Encumbrance wasn't the problem, it was just that 23 prot really isn't all that high. I have new respect for Wraith Lords now.

-Max

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

Anyone with the defenses/hp to last a while and who can cast fire shield? (Do any pretenders have a native fire shield?)

A flying SC pretender with orders to attack rear, hoping to kill the leaders.

Decked out starspawn mindblasting. (Or other spells that ignore mindless units.)

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

Dual wielding/multiple attacks dont add encumberence as your only preforming one turn of actions. Shadow brands are awesome against everything ive put them against and they are by far my favourite of the three weapons.

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

Great to know, I'll have to take a more serious look at some of the low level equipment.

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

The shadow brand is a very good weapon. It will 'do a number' on just about
anything. I always forget about its existence though, because death and earth
is not a combination of the magic paths of any nations that I play. It is also,
unless I am mistaken, a construction 6 item. This makes it a slayer's weapon,
rather than a SC's.

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

A couple paths of air magic go VERY well with a high defense (20+) pretender. Whether its the fact that mirror images disappear once a hit gets in or that missile weapons pay little attention to defense, or mistform has a 1% chance of disappearing with any hit, air plays very well. If you've got a high defense super and rarely get air magic with your nation, you won't regret a couple levels of air even with a starting cost of 50. 80 might be a bit much. If you get plenty of air mages, the value drops quite a bit for low level air.

On the other hand, air is not an effective minor magic path for a high protection super. Even if you don't take any damage, you will still get hit quite a bit, and the spells will soon evaporate, gaining you only higher fatigue.

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

Doom Glaives are easy to forge (just level 2) and fun to give to a couple of Censor thugs as LA Ermor. I can't say the area Decay worked to great effect, since the afflicted units died before hitting old age.

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

IIRC, mirror images stay until you take *damage*, so they play just as well with high protection as with high defense.

-Max

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

Looks like My SC has to worry about horror markings, not troops. Anyone have any experience on how many horror markings it takes to start getting the nasty ones? My SC just got horror marked 3 or 4 times last battle. Do horrors inflict more horror marks with astral claws even if they miss? Looks like I need to pump up magic resistance as well just in case I go against one with blood vengence. sigh. My poor pretender!

Re: armor vs defense stat for SC
 

I believe somebody once set up a test case involving an SC running into astral mages spamming horror mark, and it took quite a while for the Eater of Gods to show up. Assuming that nobody's accelerating the process by sending/calling Horrors, and you're not using an item which does.

As for Astral Claw, IIRC it requires a hit to horror mark. But yes, MR is good -- and vital if Umor shows up with the 'save-or-die' attacks, or Kurgi with Blood Vengeance +7.