Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

Invading enemies territories I've had the impression I find all the magic sites already searched by the previous owner. Is this a bug or a new feature? I remember in Dom2 you had to search again the conquered territories (apart from level 0 sites).

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

No, I didn't played domppp but it was like that since dom2 . The only thing you don't get is how well the province has been searched.

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

Anything the enemy has found, you will see automatically. You just don't know what level of searches he did there.

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

Which brings me wonder: Could enemy searches influence the automatic search option? In my sp games, the automatic search seems to work in the beginning but at a certain point it just stops working as it should (if you give the command again in also by default wants to search the province the mage is in) eventhough there are plenty of unsearched provinces.

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

The automatic search will not search any province that has 2 known sites.

Hopefully this can be fixed, now that we know what it's doing.

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

Although, you might not want it to be "fixed," given that 2 sites is already above the statistical average. (Unless you're playing with frequency of 50 or higher.) It strikes me that skipping any province with 2 or more sites is a reasonable heuristic, assuming that the % of site occurrence is checked by the game *before* determining what the type of the site is.

-Max

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

Site occurrence and site type are checked at the same time. Roll if site exists, roll possible site (reroll once if rare), roll if next site exists, repeat until all slots filled or existence check fails, whichever comes first.

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

Which means, I think, that while it is unlikely that a province will have more than 2 sites, a province known to have 2 sites is just as likely to have another one as a province with no sites is.

But my statistics is years behind me, so I may be missing something.

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

Well, if it works like Edi says then the process is something akin to this, ignoring the selection of the actual site.

1st site : Roll, if you succeed, add a site. If you fail, discontinue.
2nd site : Roll, if you succeed, add a site. If you fail, discontinue.
3rd site : Roll, if you succeed, add a site. If you fail, discontinue.
4th site : Roll, if you succeed, add a site. Discontinue.

So to get a number of sites past 1 you have to succeed multiple times in a row. I think that makes every site past the first less and less likely to be there. But I could be very, very wrong.

Jazzepi

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

Jazzepi, you are right that 1-site provinces will be more frequent than 4-site provinces, for the reasons you stated.

But you are discounting the fact that we know there are 2 sites discovered in the province, at the point the auto-searcher stops searching.

Given that Province 1 is unsearched, the probability of a least one site available to be found is the site frequency.

Given that Province 2 has been searched and 2 sites have been found, the probability of at least one more site available to be found is also the site frequency. The province is guaranteed to have passed the first 2 site existence checks.

Since site searching is done by path, though, the chance of finding a site in a specific path in Province 2 is slightly lower than the chance of finding a site in Province 1. That's because Province 1 has 4 potential sites, but Province 2 only has 2 potential sites.

But Province 2 is still worth searching IMO.

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

I've seen some controversy over whether failing a site discontinues generating other sites, but it doesn't matter for our purposes. As long as site occurrence is rolled before actually generating the site type site, frequencies for different paths are not independent. Finding a death site affects the chance of there being air sites in a province, because there are on average only x sites and air sites and death sites are mutually exclusive. This would not be the case if the % were rolled separately for each path:

1. Roll % of there being an air site. If you fail, discontinue.
2. Roll % of there being an air site. If you fail, discontinue.
3. Roll % of there being an air site. If you fail, discontinue.
4. Roll % of there being an air site. If you fail, discontinue.

1. Roll % of there being an fire site. If you fail, discontinue.
2. Roll % of there being an fire site. If you fail, discontinue.
3. Roll % of there being an fire site. If you fail, discontinue.
4. Roll % of there being an fire site. If you fail, discontinue.

etc. In that case there would be very few provinces with only 1 site (because at least one path should come up positive) and very few provinces with 8+ sites (when all paths come up positive), and finding an air site would not make it any less likely that there are death sites. But if site type is determined after occurrence, then skipping provinces with 2+ sites is a pretty reasonable thing to do because few provinces will have more than that anyway. Or, if you don't skip them, at least do them last.

-Max

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

It's not reasonable to stop searching.

You know that there are 2 sites. The first 2 checks passed. The chance of another site existing is the same as the chance of at least one site existing in an unsearched province.

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

[thinks] Oh, I see. You're right, if Dominions uses Jazzepi's discontinue-on-fail algorithm P(3 sites | 2 sites) = site freq, and maybe you shouldn't skip them. However, I don't believe that it does discontinue on fail because (w/ site freq 45) I don't see anything close to 55% of provinces having zero sites. The distribution of sites I actually see looks more like a binomial, which makes skipping 2-site provinces reasonable after all.

Binomial probability calculator
P(1+ sites) = 91%
P(2+ sites) = 61%
P(3+ sites) = 24%
P(at least 3 sites | at least 2 sites) = 24/61 = 40%

Assuming that all sites are equally likely in a given terrain, that gives a 91/8 = 11% chance of finding a site in a "fresh" province with a site-searching spell, and a 40/8 = 5% chance of finding a site in a province that already has 2 sites.

-Max

Edit: no, that's wrong. There's more than an 91/8 = 11% chance of finding a site with a spell, since there could be more than one site there. But I'm too lazy to do the math at the moment, and I've made my point.

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

Oh.

Yeah, you're right, at "Special Site Frequency=45", there are way too many sites for '45' to be a percentage chance for a site to appear, with failure preventing further site generation.

Whatever the formula is, I'd still prefer not to have site searching stop when 2 sites are found, simply because even at '45', there are way too many sites that would not be found.

In one EA game I'm in, default settings, I have 56 provinces. I've searched all paths except holy, and didn't search Air in a few provinces.

Here's the breakdown:

Provinces with 1 site: 9
Provinces with 2 sites: 11
Provinces with 3 sites: 19
Provinces with 4 sites: 17

(Skewed by maybe 1 Caspar and one Alchemy Factory thingy I think.)

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

I just want an option that I can force them to follow the list, I want to see every site searched for every path I have available. I don't care if it already has 2 sites or not.

Those rare sites that you might find 1 or 2 of in a game can completely change the game. On the other hand, if you DON'T find any of those sites, you just wasted a ton of gems and mage time. I still think its worth it though.

I'd also rather have the list be proximity based to capital rather than suddenly railroading my search pattern over to newly conquered enemy territory, but that's minor.

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

I have a question. Has anyone noticed auto-casting Voice of Tiamat searching provinces you don't control?

Jazzepi

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

Since discovering that manually-cast spells use the auto-search algorithm, I've been using monthly casts a lot less. It's so much easier to take all the mages in my capital (in paths in which I'm strong), and say, "You 50 guys. Search my empire this turn, skipping any provinces that are already searched." I.e. select them all and have them all cast e.g. Dark Knowledge one after another, accepting the default province choice. (Pre-3.08 this was a pain because IIRC you had to manually look up which provinces had already been searched and/or had someone searching them currently.) That makes things like distance from capital less of an issue, because the whole empire gets searched including provinces close to the capital.

-Max

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

Something that hasn't been mentioned in this thread that is important to consider, is that X isn't actually the site chance. It's always X + Y, where Y is the terrain modifier. Which can be significant in those mountain/swamp/waste/magic provinces.

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

I think they are like this:
Special magic place +25
Waste +20
Cave, Mountain, Swamp, Forest +10
Farm -10
Deep sea +10 (perhaps +15)

I've made slight alterings to this the other day. Cave will get 15 and a littel less income. And gets a new variety of sites with earth being ore common.

---

Sites are generated in this order (IIRC):
1) Is there a site? Terrain and default site chance effects chance.
2) Random site.
3) If rare, reroll site.
4) If uneligible due to terrain or unique that is already in use reroll. There are more eligible death sites in wastes, thus a death site is more common in a waste. There is still a good number of each magic path eligible to each terrain type, so it is possible to find nature sites in waste lands.

Generally nature sites are more common in forests and swamps. Death sites and fire sites in wastelands. Earth in mountains. Air in mountains and plains. Water in swamps and less common in wastelands. This might not be statistically true. It is just a guess from me depending on how I think I have sorted sites. 'Forest of delights' for example will only appear in forests. 'Bile march' only in swamps. You get the picture.

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

I have a tangental question:

If I have searched a territory with a mage who has one level in a path, will later auto-search spells ignore that province? It *seems* that way from my playtesting. As a result, I refrain from searching with roving mages and instead wait for the spells, as they seem more efficient. I'd hate to have a level two or three site near my capital unfound because I searched it back in the day with a level one mage, and now autosearch will not target that province.

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

Oh, that's really interesting. I didn't know terrain affected the base site %. I thought it only had an impact on which specific sites showed up, per the site DB.

-Max

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

Yes, the autosearch algorithm will skip sites that either

1.) have been searched to at least level 1 in the path in question, or
2.) have 2 or more sites there.

I really like searching with roving mages, especially early on when a +2 gem boost is really significant. It helps fund those expensive site-searching spells later on. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But of course it depends upon what mages you have access to (ideally multi-path), and on your playstyle.

-Max

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

Autosearch won't target a province that has been searched at all in that path. It's not so bad, though. You can always select it manually.

Note that this does apply to any of the paths for Voice of Tiamat and Akashic Record. If you've done, say, a Gnome Lore into a water province, Voice of Tiamat won't target it.

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

Have any blood magic sites been added into the water provinces? I recall in Dominions_2 it was not possible to find blood magic sites in the water.

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

Blood is washed away by water. No blood under water. No bloodmages under water (not intentionally anyway).

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

You can still drag your slaves to your underwater temples to chop them up and spread dominion. Telestic Animations are pretty decent for this, since they are Amph, zero maintenance and H2. Can't hold Jade knives, but ... oh wait ... it's pretty silly using them to sacrifice, I suppose, seeing as how they're inanimate and don't have hands.

Re: Finding enemy searched magic sites.
 

I can confirm the "no underwater blood mages or sites" bit. They don't exist.