Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - PLAYING)
 

So, I would like to try and host a PBEM COOPERATIVE game. As in, with established teams. This seems like a fun idea, as I always like playing cooperatively in games, so it seems like a worthy experiment. If I can get 8 like minded, serious players who would be interested, we'll give it a shot.

With 8 players, we can try a 2 vs 2 vs 2 vs 2 setup.

The first game will probably be a learning experience. Once we get 8 players (assuming there's enough interest) we can hash out these details further.

The players are:

1 - Thrawn - Marignon DEFEATED
2 - Tromper - Pythium
3 - Baalz - Ulm DEFEATED
4 - Micah - R'lyeh
5 - Folket - Pangaea
6 - DrPraetorious - Machaka
7 - Shovah32 - Oceania
8 - Burnsaber - Abysia

TEAMS:
Team 1 - Shovah32, Micah
The Briny Deeps - R'lyeh and Oceania

Team 2 - Tromper, Folket
The Eastern Empire - Pythium and Pangaea

Team 3 - Baalz, Thrawn
The Western Empire - Ulm and Marignon DEFEATED!

Team 4 - DrPraetorius, Burnsaber
The Fiery South - Abysia and Machaka


CURRENT RULES:

1. Random team pairings

2. Nations grouped by theme

3. Random selection of theme

4. Once game begins, no hostile actions can be made until at least after the 12th turn (but no one is required to attack on turn 13 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif )

5. Standard victory condition. Default settings, except no graphs, and renaming is allowed.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

This sounds great, although unfortunately I'm too busy to join myself at the mo.

Anyway, I just thought I would say that you'd be welcome to use the LlamaServer to run the game if you want to (you would still have control of the game - take a look at the "admin options" link on one of the game pages on llamaserver.net).

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

Sounds like fun, I'm in.

I'm not sure how you do it, but I've seen it done in other games where you have set starting positions for a specific nation. You could (if you were inclined) arrange that allies are adjacent. That would be particularly necessary if there are more than 2 teams.

I'm a fan of random nation selection, perhaps after the teams are assigned random nations are assigned to each team, who then decide which player gets what nation?

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

I'm interested. If we use random nations however I'd want plenty of time to familiarize myself with the nation that I draw, assuming it's one of the many I have little or no experience playing. Say, a week from nation assignments to game start. Is that reasonable?

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

I have zero experience with mods, but I'd definitely be into trying out the Worthy Heroes one, which adds spice. I'm ambivalent generally though, so will leave the choices up to you guys.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

Llamabeast - Thanks for the offer of your server. I've been in a few PBEM games that used it, and it was really helpful.

Ubercat - I'm not opposed to the idea of a delay to game start to familiarize yourself with the nation. We'll just have to see what the consensus is on how long.

Baalz - I will look for this mod, it seems like something that would exist. I also think your idea for assigning nations after teams are picked is a good one.

I'm going to start a list of rules, as we have them currently, in the original post. Also a list of mods that might be useful (but those would still be open for debate).

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

I'm in the game. Either we randomize nations or we bid for nations ones teams are randomized.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

Folket, what do you mean by "bid"?

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think it was a mod, I think a property of the map. I think DrPraetorious set this up for the Perpetuality game, I'm sure he could point you in the right direction.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

See Gandalf's posts in 'Noob questions about AI and diplomacy' on the main board.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

Sounds good, let us do this thing (I would like to play).

Yeah, if you want to bid for nations (or draft for nations), I need to randomize (or fix) the start locations.

This might be a good idea anyway, since then we can assure that allies start out adjacent. Or non-adjacent http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif, which actually I think works better.
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A B C

B C A (with wrap)
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Means that each player is adjacent to all four of his enemies! Doesn't that sound like fun?

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

I just had a thought that might be fun (after reading Gandalf's post): Maybe we can assign thematic team nations before we assign who's on what team. For instance, we could have the underwater nation team, a cold dominion team, a demon team, a nation of men team, etc. Then we just randomly assign people to each team and then they decide which nations they'll play out of the nations on that team. For instance, if we have 2 person teams and someone gets the underwater team then between the two of them they get to pick between R'yleh, Oceana, and Atlantis.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

Well, since you're going to play, I'd be happy to have you fix the start locations. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Everyone share your thoughts on:

1. Do allies want to start adjacent or non-adjacent?

2. Do we want to "bid" for nations, or randomly assign? I'm still unclear what "bid" means.

3. We now have six players. It filled up pretty quick. Do we want to keep it at six, or extend it to 8 or 9?

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

That sounds really cool to me too, Baalz. I love the roleplaying aspects, and that would bring out those elements even more.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

My votes are:

1) Adjacent allies

2) Assign teams as I describe above

3) The more the merrier, I'd be very happy with 3 vs 3 vs 3 (vs 3)

4) You didn't mention an era. I don't have a preference but we should probably settle on one.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

If you're upping the player limit sign me up, I've been wanting to do a team game for a while.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

If we do adjacent-allies, how about 4 teams of 2, arranged either on a ringworld or on the corners of a non-wrapping square?

So, either each team has an enemy on each side, or each team gets a corner.

As for eras - if we're going to do "themes", we should do mid era. Early era themes (Niefelheim + Lanka vs Marverni + Ulm in a cage match to the death!) may not be fair.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

Hmmm, I don't really have a preference on era, but I was thinking that the themes would have 3 nations apiece with maybe 2 players so you'd have the choice of not going with Marverni (for example), and we could fudge the themes a bit if necessary to make sure things like a Niefelhiem/Lanka pair up didn't happen. For EA I'd see something like this (I'm going from memory so I'm sure I left out some nations):

Lanka, Yomi, Kailissa&lt;sp&gt; (demonic and otherwordly)
Vanheim, Helhiem, and Tir Og however-the-hell-you-spell-it (Vanir and family)
Mictlan, Ulm, Sauromatia (barbarians)
T'ien Ch'i, Arcoscephale, Ermor (civilization)
C'tis, Pangea, Abyssia (half men)
R'yleh, Oceana, Atlantis (underwater)
Niefelhiem, Caelum, Marverni (frozen - biggest thematic fudging)

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

We could even do a bidding for the teams if we felt like getting fancy.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

I'd love to be in this game but I need to bow out. It will bite me in the *** in a few weeks for being in too many games at once. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

-Ubercat

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

This is all sounding GREAT.

Let's do 2 vs 2 vs 2 vs 2. So, opening it up to 8. Micah, you're in.

I also like the idea of starting in the corners of a non-wrapping square, per DrPraetorious. DrPraetorious would you like to be our map builder? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I'm still open as to the Era. I like EA the best, but if EA is for some reason unfair for 2 v 2 themes, MA is cool by me.

BTW Baalz, i've been using your guide to bloodhunting for a MA game in playing Abysia. VERY helpful.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

Also, can someone explain the process of "bidding" for nations?

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

Well it was just a suggestion.

Each player pick one nation to be in the game. After that players bid on nation with pretender design points to see who get to play what nation.

That will make the stronger nations have somewhat weaker gods.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

Bidding works by either having the players give up a portion of their design points to get the choice they want or giving some sort of bonus to the people/teams that don't get their first choice (or a combo, I guess).

For example, say we're dueling on a small map, Helheim vs Marverni. I would bid say, 500 design points on Helheim, which means if I get Helheim I'd leave 500 design points unspent when making my god. You can then do either one round or multiple rounds of bidding. If it's one round puts in a bid at the same time, and whoever bids the most "lost" points gets the nation at their specified handicap. If there are multiple rounds each player goes back and forth, nudging up the value until only one person is willing to take the handicap.

Similar situation with bonuses, only in reverse.

Oh, and Abysian blood hunting is easy, since you don't have to make any hard choices...you ALWAYS get a blood mage every turn with MA Aby...cap only sucks, but there's a certain simplicity that comes with it that's nice.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

The bonuses are more properly a "draft" then a bid. Everyone drafts their nation of choice, and anyone forced to take a round X draft pick gets (round X-1) bonuses.

Well, are the following teams balanced?
R'lyeh + Atlantis
Helheim + Tir
Mictlan + Sauromatia
Niefelheim + Caelum
Pangaea + Abysia (but not certain, EA C'tis can be powerful if allowed to fester)
Lanka + (Yomi or Kailasa, not sure)

and... I suspect T'ien Ch'i + Arco would be the strongest pair, but I'm not certain. Ermor's death magic really complements.

Anyhoo, yeah, that's close enough to balanced that, with a draft, it should work out okay.

Let's do the draft *before* I put the map together, so that I know whether to put a pair of water start locations in one of the quadrants.

Also, pick a province total, and a bonus to apply after each round assuming we are doing the draft.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

Okay, the bidding thing makes sense to me. We can do that, if that's the route we want.

First, we should pick our era. I like EA, personally. If we went EA, and the 2 vs 2 vs 2 vs 2 approach, we could have four teams setup based on Baalz thematic structure above. Since he picked three nations per theme, that would leave each team of to pick one nation each.

The themes were:

DEMONIC: Lanka, Yomi, Kailissa
VANIR: Vanheim, Helhiem, and Tir Og
BARBARIANS: Mictlan, Ulm, Sauromatia
CIVILIZATION: T'ien Ch'i, Arcoscephale, Ermor
HALF-MEN: C'tis, Pangea, Abyssia
UNDERWATER: R'yleh, Oceana, Atlantis
FROZEN: Niefelhiem, Caelum, Marverni

Can we find four of these themes that seem to be a fair mix?

Would MA be more fair?

Once, we get this locked up, we can decide if we want to bid for the themes, or just random roll them.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

Sorry, DrPraetorious. Must have been open typing while you were. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I am open to whatever mix we all agree is fair.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

I'd swap out Marverni and Ulm for thematics in Thrawn's list, since Marverni's not at all a cold nation, but they're certainly pagan/barbaric. Ulm as a "frozen" nation is a bit of an overstatement, but they have a scale preference and 50% CR.

I might also swap out Kailasa and Abysia...Aby's got a lot more going on in demon land, and I think monkies are close to half-men, no?

If we're not using all the nations anyhow I like the idea of picking out 2 of the 3 available, since it'll allow for more flexibility.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

So, rearranging per Micah...

DEMONIC: Lanka, Yomi, Abysia
VANIR: Vanheim, Helhiem, and Tir Og
BARBARIANS: Mictlan, Marverni, Sauromatia
CIVILIZATION: T'ien Ch'i, Arcoscephale, Ermor
HALF-MEN: C'tis, Pangea, Kailasa
UNDERWATER: R'yleh, Oceana, Atlantis
FROZEN: Niefelhiem, Caelum, Ulm

I think Praetorious was saying the T'ien C'hi/Arco/Ermor combo might be too powerful? We have 7 groups, which means we can lose 3, if we feel they are unfair.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

Praetorious: 220 or 230 province total? That's 55 per team. Sound right?

No idea about the bonus.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

It sounded to me like DrP was debating which 2 of the 3 to include as the nation choices, as opposed to saying they would be overpowered in relation to the other teams. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The teams look pretty good to me, although the Half-Men faction might be a bit weak (And I don't think Abysia being back in there would change that). That being said there are 3 spare teams, so no big deal even if I'm right (and I might not be since it's hard to read how this will play out). No one has to play them.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

All I was saying was that I think T'ien Ch'i and Arco are both more powerful than EA Ermor, but not by much. What about Agartha?

I'll start cranking out maps. Do we want water, or no?

On balance:
Nifelheim + Caelum - this looks scaaaary. Caelum raids while Niefelheim punches in the face, and you get excellent magic diversity.
Helheim + Tir - not as powerful as it looks, since the two positions don't contribute that much to one another. Still, raiding bless rushers can coordinate to cause serious hurt.
Lanka + Abysia - Brutal, and covers every path except water quite well.
Pangaea + Kailasa - I hope you like nature. Decent, but not terrifically exciting.
Arco + T'ien Ch'i - If they can survive to take advantage of their great research and gem income, very powerful indeed. But probably will be killed early.
R'lyeh + Atlantis - If their quadrant is mostly water, but there's little or no water elsewhere, should be balanced.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

You forgot Mictlan + Sauromatia - jaguar warriors or poison archers should cover most everybody and strong research with good blood on both sides could be quite deadly.

I'd say stick Argatha on the half men team, it marginally fits and I agree that theme needs a little help.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

Reading all this, I'm really excited to play. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Hopefully we will get two more soon. If not, can always do 2 vs 2 vs 2.

DrP: yes, let's do water.

Alright, so another adjustment to the themes:

DEMONIC: Lanka, Yomi, Abysia
VANIR: Vanheim, Helhiem, and Tir Og
BARBARIANS: Mictlan, Marverni, Sauromatia
CIVILIZATION: T'ien Ch'i, Arcoscephale, Ermor
HALF-MEN: C'tis, Pangea, Agartha
UNDERWATER: R'yleh, Oceana, Atlantis
FROZEN: Niefelhiem, Caelum, Ulm

I'll post this at the top as well.

We have the age and nations. Obviously, we'll do random teams. I have a random roll dice program which I'll use once we get 8 (or decide on 6).

After that, do we want to bid/draft for the theme each team will play? Or, random that as well? Seems like the consensus is for bid/draft.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

Thrawn,

I am definately interested, but I'm in three games right now and don't want to overbook myself...it's relly a shame when work gets in the way of your gaming!

Anyway, if there is any potential for a "round two" at a later date, please pencil me in. Thanks

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

When did we decide on early era?

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

Well, Folket, I guess you're right. All the talk about fairness for the themes being batted around seemed to focus on EA. But, I am fine with MA as well. Let's vote on EA vs. MA, and I will tally.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

EA

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

Pretty much 3/4s of the MP games I've kindly allowed other players to kick me in the balls with have been EA. I swing toward MA for spice, but EA will be fine if that's how the cookie crumbles.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

230 provinces, 1725x1725 pixels, 30% water *by area*, which is something l.t. 20% water provinces, and is balanced.

I've put little colored diamonds over the eight start locations, paired by teams.

The southern team is a little bit crowded and the northern and eastern teams end up with a bit too much breathing space, maybe - but it's not a big enough difference that it won't be outweighed by luck and/or the playstyle of your neighbours.

Looking forward to the game,
TNDP

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

2 votes for EA, 1 for MA so far.

Sounds great DrP! Let's get these final issues settled up so we can get started.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

Come on guys, vote on your era. And we still need 2 more for an 8 player game, so if you know anyone let them know.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

I've got a slight preference for MA I suppose, but don't really care that much. Use it as a tiebreak vote maybe?

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

So, 2 votes EA, 2 votes MA, 2 votes outstanding.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

I have no real preference but count me in - sounds like fun.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

Sounds like a ton of fun. Count me in! I prefer MA.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

I'm agnostic, but it looks like middle era wins - and I'm voting for middle era on that basis.

Hooookay, middle era themes:

The Briny Deeps - R'lyeh, Atlantis, Oceania
The Western Empire - Ulm, Ermor, Marignon
The Eastern Empire - Arcoscephale, Pythium, Pangaea
The Near North - Eriu, Man, Vanheim
The Far East - Shinuyama, T'ien Ch'i, Bandar Log
The Fiery South - Abysia, Machaka, Mictlan
The Monsters - Agartha, Jotunheim, C'tis, Caelum

How's that?

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

Well... I'm not going to be involved, but if you'd like my suggestion for middle era themes-teams based on flavor...
I really don't think the water teams belong together. They have a long antagonistic relationship to each other. Unfortunately, my suggestions might not mesh well with random. Feel free to disregard, since I'm not involved in the game. Are you going with themed teams, or merely themed random factions with teams not necessarily of the same theme?

What I'd do is split them up, and attach them to teams without any amphibious presence.

Agartha, Shinuyama, Ermor have some level of amphibious presence. I can't remember off hand who also has easy access through nationals or summons, but you get the idea.

As a team, Agartha, Jotunheim, C'tis, and Caelum are very uncomfortable allies - two coldblooded nations and two cold-thriving nations? Rules out some global enchantments, makes border dominion uncomfortable.

All that said, a team of watery factions makes good enough sense if you ignore the fluff history of the races.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

This game looks very interesting. Unfortunately I will probably not have time to play another one until my current game is finished (having myself a nice big empire built on Baalz former empire http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ).

If any similar games appears later on I'm interested (unless caught up in other time consuming games).

MA TC and MA Mictlan is upped a bit with the next patch, just so you know. It is not too far away, say a week or two. TC gets increased magic versatility with their new alchemists and apothecaries. Mictlan gets air magic. Blessings on undead work as they should. And a number of other small fixes.

Re: Allegiances (Team Game, Experimental - Recruit
 

Those themes look good to me, DrP. And, we now have EIGHT players, with Burnsaber and Shovah joining.

I will random assign the teams, and post here. Then we can either random the themes, or go for bid/draft. Will post teams today, in an hour or so!