Good Troop Summons
 

It seems to be a piece of accepted wisdom that most national troops aren't terribly useful by the endgame, although D3 isn't so extreme as D2 in this regard. Since we have a bunch of threads about how to kit out thugs and SCs -- who are commanders, rather than troops -- how about creating a list of recommended troop summons for the late game, broken down by path?

Ideally, we should exclude national summons from the list, or at least clearly flag them -- this should be made up of units that anyone (with the right magic) can use to supplement/replace nationals.

Air - Tricky. Spring hawks and draconians are good, but expensive: they work out to be 4/almost 4 (IIRC) gems each. The draconian chief can summon more, but still, is it really worth spending that much on troops of middling power, except as specialist raiders?

Earth - Easy. Mechanical men have thick armour, elemental immunity, and decent punch. Clockwork horrors have their attractions (they're fast and dual-wield), but fatigue out too quickly. Enlivened statues are slow and lack resistances. Maybe trolls, if you don't mind the fire vulnerability and having to use Troll King's Court to get the better kinds.

Fire - Fire snakes, maybe? They're cheap (around 2 fire gems each), and I seem to remember they do splash damage.

Water - Kydnides are reasonably priced (2 water gems) and have awe, which is very useful, but ironically their own morale isn't that good, and I don't recall that they're particularly good fighters otherwise. Otherwise, I suppose you could try sea trolls - but it would take you a long time to mass them, unless you used the expensive Sea King's Court. Ideas?

Death - Death has plenty of fodder, and plenty of thugs/SCs, but does it have much in between, leaving aside longdead archers? Legion of Wights effectively costs 1.5 death gems for each dude, which is cheap - but for 30 death gems, you could get 2.5 bane lords (not to mention you tie up a D6 mage). Are they any good?

Astral - None that I can think of. Maybe the ether warriors?

Nature - Lamias or vine ogres. Lamias are very cheap, but useful with the right buffs, and VOs (terrible MR aside) are great at damage-soaking. However, I imagine they both suffer from 'long time to mass' syndrome.

Blood - Talk about spoiled for choice! They all seem so good...

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

Air - Spring hawks are very good, but use them with a Queen of Air. She can summon a lot of them.

Earth - Troll King's Court is worth the expense. They are extremely tough fighters, and the Troll King is a very good earth mage.

Fire - I don't see too much use for fire, until I can summon a Fire King. They can then summon some awesome units.

Water - I don't use it much until I can summon a Sea King's Court. The troops are fairly worthless. They die very quickly in a big fight. But the Sea King is a very good Water mage, and brings in 1 water per turn.

Death - Heh, you can't go wrong with death.

Astral - Yes, Ether Warriors are the cat's meow. They cost a lot, but are almost unstoppable.

Nature - Hmm. There is a lot you can get with Nature, and they are all pretty useful. I think the Naiads are the best.

Blood - Don't know. I don't use Blood magic.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

I think that vine ogres are popular nature summons. They have lots of hitpoints, and if you can buff their protection they make good shock troops.

Jazzepi

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

Earth: Troll kings court is great, mechanical men are useful, siege golems are tough, fairly hard hitting and destroy castles easily, iron dragons are also very tough but they also fly and have good resistances. Crushers can be extremely useful if you get them early because they are fairly difficult to take down without magic.

Water: Sea kings court is good. The Sea king himself is useful and the regenerating sea trolls(who tend to bleed alot)+the shark summoning spell can dominate underwater.
Kydnides are nice too.

Nature: Lamias are great. Vinemen and ogres are also nice - particularly when you get a boost to summoning.

Astral: Ether warriors are nice. Not much else.

Death: Ghosts are great, chaff, particularly dispossesed spirits are great, wights from the legion of wights spell are good and troop tartarians are fairly good.

Blood: Imps can be a pain but arent too powerful. Devils are always nice. Storm demons/frost fiends/fiends of darkness all have their uses, particularly the fiends of darkness due to stealth(give a stealthy commander rod of the leper king). My personal favourite here would have to be demon knights - they are absolutely awesome with their great stats, abilities and equipment.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

Does anyone mass juggernauts?

Jazzepi

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

It has the best troop summon of them all- the abomination.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

Really? You would rank the abonimation over Legion of Wights, or some of the Blood massing spells (Infernal Crusade, etc.)?

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

Hmm, well, I was thinking more of troop summons that you could mass in place of nationals -- so not really Abominations/Juggernauts/troop Tartarians.

What makes you guys like the Kydnides? Also, I thought you got a fixed number (5) of spring hawks, regardless of how powerful the summoning mage was?

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

Above legion of wights for certain, blood is much harder to gauge as the gem costs don't really correspond.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

I forgot about abominations. As R'lyeh I love the things. A reasonable group of them buffed with will of the fates and army of lead atleast are very powerful.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

R'lyeh? I know this thread is about the late game, but in the early game, Claymen can be useful against R'lyeh, and if you've got plenty of spare gems, can be massed in place of nationals fairly easily. They've got decent strength, and damaging weapon, and are mindless. R'lyeh doesn't have much protection, and usually relies on a mindblast strategy.

So, "troop summons that you could mass in place of nationals" - Claymen - though I've only tried them against R'lyeh. With sixty or so Claymen, you don't have to worry about their chaff breaking through your line unopposed. They likely won't win you the battle on their own, but combined with the right spells, they'll buy you the time you need to win. You do need a few size three or greater units to tie up the tramplers, though.

Also, I've heard something about regenerating Sea Trolls and sharks that may be useful with claymen to a lesser degree. They could also be used with other slow damaging battlefield enchantments or Earthquake, since they'll heal.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

QM--

Ok, I guess it had been a while since I actually looked at these things...I'm forced to agree with you.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

Yes, you just get the fixed number of spring hawks. But an Air Queen can summon them easily, and amass a number of them in a few turns.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

For water: what about Winter Wolves? or Claymen? Not great spells, I admit, but they can be useful if you are planning to summon with your water gems.

As for VOs being "hard to mass", yes thats true. But players who have chosen to follow the VO route will set up Factories to produce them.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

Winter Wolves, claymen... wouldn't mass them in place of nationals. However, with certain nations, I often summon them.

As Agartha, it is sometimes easier to mass Claymen than it is your infantry. As MA Agartha, they step up in value, thanks to bonus hitpoints. I wouldn't consider them 'elite', but they're good enough to replace the nationals I don't have enough resources to get.

As Late Era Atlantis, and other water nations, I suppose, they make an excellent light cavalry for a nation without any. I make a point of having Winter Wolves in any army I expect to win by either a large margin or by breaking the enemy's morale via Wailing Wind or Fear. I have them set to hold and attack rear and bring down any runners.

If the enemy's running at the end of a lengthy battle, chances are they have enough fatigue for a pack of winter wolve's chill to knock them out cold, making them even easier to rip to shreds.

In my opinion, a lot of the value of summons is dependent on the nation. For instance, EA & MA Agartha have little use for Siege Golems. And while man and Ctis have little use for Winter Wolves, Atlantis almost needs them, unless they get good independents in a good resource province.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

Don't diss living statues.

Living statues exist to die in great numbers while the mages behind them spam spells.

Sure, living statues aren't immune to any kind of magic, have no rythym, can't dance, never get laid, etc. etc., but if you have an E9 God (for the blessing, presumably), you can make living statues very fast, very cheap, in *huge* numbers.

And then who cares if they die? That's what they're for - at least they take a while to do it. Sure, mechanical men are better - but they're not enough better to not-die, so why pay extra?

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

In other words, they're like vine ogres -- cheap damage soakers? (Well, quite a bit steeper than VOs, unless you have that E9 mage -- but their MR is much better. Are they still worthwhile if your Earth magic isn't quite up to that level?)

Good calls regarding winter wolves and claymen, folks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Any opinion on summer lions?

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

Living Statues are good for holding regular enemy troops from advancing and they ignore most arrows because of their protection and large shield. They will fall quickly to any elemental attacks and/or elemental auras.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

Bog beasts.

Enough said.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

They might be N2W1 now Sombre http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

how to summon cheap and massive troops without using any gems?

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

Play a mod in the 'balancing phase' ;]

KO: Yay! -does the bog beast dance- Any chance of a bog beast migration random event?

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

Summer Lions are rather expensive at six gems apiece, compared to Winter Wolves at 2 apiece. And I haven't played a nation favored with fire magic of any worthwhile amount, yet. So I can't say they are any good, but can throw out some ideas. I'm not a fan of the cost, though.

While not exactly correct, you can consider them the heavy cavalry of summons (though not the elites). They do have low length weapons (bite, claw), but they do have two attacks where Winter Wolves have only the one. The combination of 44 hitpoints and ethereal means that they could, in theory, intercept knights without immediately folding. They lack the power to penetrate heavy armor, though if they can survive a few turns, they'll get the chance to penetrate thanks to fatigue - while they have 0 encumberance, Knights have quite a bit more. Though, a 19 and 17 damage attack are by no means bad if they find a target soft enough.

They've got a size 4, which is a bit of trouble, though mitigated by their ethereal nature, but does allow them to intercept larger forces than size 3 units.

Its worth giving them a try, but it would be an expensive waste to relegate them to cleanup duty. You'd almost certainly want to buff them, as well, though size four makes them a bit difficult to buff with area one spells. Or combo them with spells that are less likely to affect ethereal units.

I'll have to look into what nations do reliably get these, but probably wont, since I'm not a fan of nations with a drop of blood magic.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

> Any chance of a bog beast migration random event?

I think I can imagine that one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

Any of the summons that ramp up the higher level you go are easy to mass. Ghosts, statues, undead horse.

I agree with the statement that it depends on the nation. It also depends on who you are fighting.

A few wights interspersed with some LA Atlantis troops can really give them some kick.

Summer lions or Winter wolves behind your Abyssian or LA Atlantis heavy infantry set to hold and attack can chase down runners that the normal heavy infantry would let get away. The auras they provide can turn a close fight as well.

Against certain enemies, summons you wouldnt normally consider become an option. As mentioned, claymen vs R'leh.
How about a horde of dispossesed to hold up a line of Giants while your mages pound them. Mechanical men become an option if you are facing an enemy using Elemental magic. And Spring Hawks are damn expensive to mass, but if you are fighting someone using alot of lighting, it may be an option.

The best bang for the buck in the late game is whatever your enemy is vulnerable to.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

I have found spring hawks to be excellent against Helheim. The armour negating lightning swarm attack cuts through glamoured troops like a knife through butter.

Due to the expensive nature of glamoured troops generally, probably worth the gem cost.

Corpse Man Construction is good, with lightning rod 5E gems you get 4 for 1A gem, staff of storms 6/1A gem and Igor Knohelms Tome + staff of storms 16/1A.

The really great thing about corpse men is the 100% SR (little frankinsteins), so they can survive on a battlefield with wrathful skies for example. The mindless, 100% CR, 100% PR also create other interesting possibilities. The high hps 20 and poor amphibian are a great bonus too. Cheap and nasty. Useful the entire game.

Remember the Vine Ogre spell cast by Ivy King, equipped with treelords staff+Ivy Crown/Crown of the Ivy King becomes a fantastic conjuration for 2N gems. Take advantage of there mindless and 100%PR to turn them into a more destructive army than just meatshields.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

I personally find it a bit irritating that there are some spells which are total dross unless you are using a specific item with them, such as vine men/ogre, corpse men etc. Same with dragon master and drakes - you can't make the base spell more useful because then it's too abusable with the items, which means you have more 'pitfall' summons that new players will go for and essentially waste their gems.

I'd prefer it if having the item just allowed you access to another version of the spell which was more efficient (though not 4 or 8 or 16 times as efficient) and that way the original spell could be balanced to see a bit more use.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

That is also part of the charm of this game. Yes, you have a spell that is absolute crap, but if you want, you can expend the resources to make that a killer spell later. I've never cast corpse men without at least a lightning rod. Its complete crap, nevermind the waste of an action for only one unit, but combined with other boosters, it is a great spell.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

I like it as it is now.

It encourages creative, strategic/tactical thinking and I like spells which scale upward throughout the game, so are always useful. Rather than a spell which becomes utterly useless by turn 10 for example.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

How is corpse man or summon drakes always useful? They're useless unless you have the item. Their transition from utterly useless to useful based entirely on the item/spell required isn't 'scaling' at all.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

Yes it is scaling, as you after research the items, lightning rod construction 2, staff of storms lvl 6 and Igor Konhelms Tome lvl 8. You would probably start casting corpse man when you get lightning rod.

Corpse Man Construction does require some effort to set up but once you get it going, it runs automatically, auto monthly summons.

I am not a fan of drakes summons myself, I never cast those spells, not efficient use of gems. So I agree with you drakes are not very useful at present.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

How big a problem is the abysmal MR on corpse men? I have visions of the other guy showing up with a stack of priests, or just Undead Mastery. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

I disagree that summon drakes is useless without dragonmaster. In fact, I'd say the reverse: once you have dragonmaster, you invariably have something better to do.

Now, if you fight with people who agree never to have any wars before turn 20, drakes are usless. OTH, for a turn 9 army of 110 guys, three drakes can make a *big* difference. Potentially a much bigger difference than five people who know fireball instead of fire flies, which would be the other option for your early research.

Dominions 3 has a lot of tactics that you wouldn't use if given the choice in the matter. But if you don't have a choice, you use them, and if you don't get demoralized, it's entirely possible to come from behind and win.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

Sorry but if you're summoning drakes for the vanilla gemcost without dragon master (they're pretty useless even with dragonmaster, because dragonmaster is such an abysmal spell) then you must be completely boned anyway. You'd be better off alchemising the gems for gold to buy more troops imo.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

I have to agree with Dr. P on this one. Drakes can e very effective early, and under the right circumstances much later in the game...

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

Other good summons, which are probably mentioned already, are anything EA Agartha gets nationally. The Umbrals are nuts, but my favorite gems are the Earth Elementals and the Lava Children (right name?). The Earth Elementals can overrun lots of stuff, and the Lava Children are a good (great, imo) answer to glamored troops. Massing enough of them is the key, but once you have a good line of them, fwackooming entire ranks of Glamored guys is wonderful. They aren't as mobile as the Spring Hawks, but they hit a whole square at a time. Also, Van/Helheim are less likely to be able to get FR than SR, which may make a difference. Also, they don't have to make a to-hit roll. All good things to hose the glamorheims with.

Wyatt Hebert

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

Mind Elemental, Shovah32

How do you go about using Lamias effectively, and, more to the point, do you have any suggestions for using them with EA Ctis?

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

I like Kithaironic Lions in EA if you have the right mages.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

Sorry for the belated reply!

Honestly, I'm mostly going more by their reputation -- I never had more than a few running around, so I don't have that much to offer from firsthand experience.

However, a glance at them reveals they have, in addition to their excellent regen and poison immunity, an AN and (IIRC) magical weapon. This suggests possible synergy with armour buffs (Nature or Earth, though if you use the barkskin line of spells, watch out for opponents with fire magic!), poison cloud spam, being used to bodyguard thugs with Snake Bladder Sticks, and use against ethereal enemies...

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

I don't think the Ivy King has a head.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

How does he smell?

Terrible!

HAW HAW HAW.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

I've fought lamias before, in numbers, and they're fairly tough, especially the mothers. I wouldn't say they're unstoppable, but with buffs and support, they'd be quite respectable-especially if you have a mother of monsters.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

Just checked and opps your right, no head slot.

Must of been a Master Druid or possibly animists I was using it with, always catching me out stuff like that. The amount of times as EA Oceania, I made a pair of boots only to find my mages had no feet... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

For the lamias I didn't really put them into use until it was late game. I was playing Pangaea and with my late-game earth access I had an army of around 300 lamias with army of lead on them with a E9W9N4 Gorgon supporting them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.
Good times.

Re: Good Troop Summons
 

Sounds good. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

I think you need buffs for your lamias, I used them sometime ago and was a little disappointed.

20 lamias failed to take out 10PD of MA Arco, which was poor given they have +50 regeneration, life drain and do you have to kill them twice, not sure?

They do die easily because of there 5 prt + 9 Def. But buffed could probably be awesome.

You have got to put a significant amount of effort in and they are very late game, needing Army of Lead or such.

Rare to see lamias in MP.