Interested in SE-V -- differences to GalCiv II?
 

Hello everybody!
I hope this is the correct place to post this question.

I recently became aware of SE-V, and read a review of it on gamespot, which gave it a very weak score -- surprisingly, they had given Dom3 a very high score, so it can't be pure anti-indie-bias.

In any case, I enjoy 4X-TBS games. My only experience with a space setting has been GalCiv2, which had purchased shortly after its release. I enjoyed that game quite a bit for some time, and then got suddenly bored with it, quite bored, despite its excellent AI and interesting play, because I found myself always doing the same things. I disliked the tech tree (too linear, not enough synergetic choices) and disliked the way that constructor ships function, but otherwise liked the AI. I was just absolutely floored by the amazing support that Stardock offered its fans as well.

I wanted to give SE-V a try, since I like the Shrapnel-based community and know that SE-IV had a big fan club -- yet was put off by the reviews I read. I suppose the main points -- very buggy and poor AI -- were the main catches. Might I ask your opinion on this?
I should say that I am not keen on MP games, and hence really need a decent AI to enjoy a game. That is why I lost interest in great games such as Dom3; the AI simply cannot do a decent job. That's ok, I know dom3 is for MP; but is that how the fans here feel about SEV too? If so, I know it's not for me, but I would really appreciate an honest appraisal from some of its staunch players.
So if you could give me your opinion on SE-V, I would be greatly obliged. Have the vast majority of bugs been eliminated by now? Have there been great improvements to AI? Is there something the reviewers have missed? Particularly interested in comparisons to GC2, since it is the only 4X space game I know.
thank you very much!

Re: Interested in SE-V -- differences to GalCiv II
 

I'd suggest that you probably want to get SE4 to start with.
If you don't mind crisp and responsive 2D graphics, SE4 has the advantage of over 7 years of refinement, mods, shipsets and some decent AI for some of those mods.

SE5 is still new, with more flash and more potential, but it dosen't have much of a legacy built up yet.

Re: Interested in SE-V -- differences to GalCiv II
 

SEV offers a vastly superior tech tree to GC2 and far more detail generally (the exception being planetary developement - with SE you purchase facilities until the planetary limit is reached). In particular, areas like ship design, race/empire setup, intelligence and combat (space and ground) provide far more options and issues to ponder over.

On the other hand, not everything works as it should (though with the patches, things are much better, hence the poor initial reviews), the UI is clunky and the AI fairly anaemic (even with mods).

Based on previous form, SEV is likely to get more updates (SEIV was receiving updates 5 years after its initial release) and there is no "online activation" hassle (something which I greatly resented having with GC2's patches). As such I would say it is worth a try, though I think the demo is still based on an old (buggy) version.

SEIV does have a polished UI and mods aplenty, but suffers in areas like tactical combat and ship design (though still better than GC2).

Re: Interested in SE-V -- differences to GalCiv II
 

SE4 _suffers_ in ship design? What? Its quite superior to the 97% useless slot layout of SE5... If it had the inner/outer/armor lists of SE3, it would be perfect.

Regarding AI requirements, you would be better off with SE4 and the TDM mod (which just alters AI). AIC and Carrier Battles also have some good AI, but are widely divergent from the stock tech tree and best saved til after you become familiar with the game. AI has never been one of SE's particular strong points, though mods have been able to make it fairly challenging. SE5 has some AI related mods in the works, but as of yet they lack the amount of refinement that SE4's mods developed over the years.

Re: Interested in SE-V -- differences to GalCiv II
 

I think tactical combat is the big difference. Ships and how they are built really matter, rather than being simple different name and power rating. You have to decide whether you want, for example, range vs power. Some weapons only affect shields, some only armor etc There is so much variety compared to GC2 and the decisions are very important.

Re: Interested in SE-V -- differences to GalCiv II
 

I see, thanks for these replies so far.
I hadnt considered getting the older game vs. the newer, since I only uncovered reviews for SE-IV (by Bruce Geryk no less) after reading these posts. It really is nearly 8 years old?!?!
I didnt know that AI was redone on mods, ok. I will try the demo.
If SE-V hasnt been "fixed" by now (I mean simply bugfixes, not improved AI etc.) then I doubt it will be in the next year.
That's too bad, since it appeared that there were really a lot of neat choices to be had in SEV.
If I am understanding you correctly, SEV and SEIV are also, like Dom3, basically for MP play. I am afraid that I will have to look elsewhere then. Aren't there any good SINGLE PLAYER 4X games out there with decent AI??

Re: Interested in SE-V -- differences to GalCiv II
 

6 years old. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

SE5 has had a ton of bug fixes since release. Pretty much all of the major bugs have been fixed.

SE4/5 are not multiplayer-only. With the right setup, the AI can give you a run for your money.

Re: Interested in SE-V -- differences to GalCiv II
 

As a good example;
In Carrier Battles mod, I'm playing with NO BONUS AIs on team mode. Last game, my fleets were destroyed and I started losing ground to the AIs just before turn 50. I'm doing a little better in this second game because the galaxy is bigger and most of the AIs are just at the outermost fringe of their supply range when they meet my ships at the fringe of mine.
I've been playing since last millenium, and it is nice to have a game in which I really don't know if I will win or not despite my BEST efforts on all fronts.
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...;Number=531519

Everything is always better in multiplayer, because you face creativity rather than brute force.
You don't see 700 ship battles against the AI http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/...an1_turn08.jpg

Re: Interested in SE-V -- differences to GalCiv II
 

The second link times out before loading SJ.

Re: Interested in SE-V -- differences to GalCiv II
 

Just setting up a new router, and mucking with cabling for the last hour or so. Its all good now.

Re: Interested in SE-V -- differences to GalCiv II
 

Awesome http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Interested in SE-V -- differences to GalCiv II
 

But all in all you would recommend SEiv over SEv because the AI in SEiv is better -- due to mods? (I assume I can find out where to get which mods how etc. too if I were to buy the game...?)
The tactical combat in both is also TBS?

Re: Interested in SE-V -- differences to GalCiv II
 

In SE:V, the tactical combat is in real-time.

If you'd only pick one of the two to buy, I'd go for SE:V. It's not quite as polished or has the same mod base as SE:IV yet, but it features generally better game mechanics and is more flexible for modding.

Re: Interested in SE-V -- differences to GalCiv II?
 

I'm going to address your question in a somewhat different way - not AI or specific features, but about the underlying framework of the game to which everything else is basically bolted on.

The GalCiv series is, in spirit, descended from the Sid Meier "Civilization" games, which in turn are desended from the old mainframe game "Empire". Basically, Sid took "Empire" and added internal management of cities, technology development , diplomacy and a lot of (for its day) glitzy graphics. The fundamentals were the same - a map with a square grid on which single (ustacked) units moved, uncovering hidden terrain as they moved - fighting other units by moving into their square - units built one at a time in cities. In the GalCiv games, now the cities are called planets (as far back as CivII, there were mods that worked the same way - substuting planets for cities and otherwise changing the graphics to make it look like space). There is still one big map, with planets & stars directly on it (unlike most games that started life as interstellar 4X games). Playing the GalCiv games still feels like playing a gussied-up version of "Empire".

The SE games are in a similar sense descending from a board game called "Starfire". Although never a straight-up computer port of Starfire (plenty of differences exist at the detail level), nevertheless playing the SE games still feels like playing Starfire. All the action is within individual star systems, because interstellar movement is via "warp points" (like "wormholes") and ships literally can't be in between star systems. As a game system that started life as a space game, as opposed to a ground game system adapted to model space, the SE games seem to me to be more inherently fitting to the subject matter than the GalCiv games.

As an aside, I prefer even more the space 4X games descended from the board game "Stellar Conquest". However, there is nothing even remotely current using that system. The original "Master of Orion" did, as did at least two previous computer games in the 8-bit era. MOO2 was a hybrid, mixing the "Stellar Conquest" type of movement/exploration with Civ-style city (planet) management - resulting in the late game management overload typical of the Civ games. MOO3 didn't seem to be terribly related to anything else (storyline continued from the earlier MOO games excepted), and also seems to have killed the MOO franchise (unfortunately). So, the SE series seems to me to be the best space 4X system still kicking.

Re: Interested in SE-V -- differences to GalCiv II?
 

Hmn interesting, I see. I dont know Starfire, but the basic difference between the two sounds plausible and understandable. So in SEiv and SEv, there are tactical and strategic moves, one with engines and the other with warp technology, which is not easy to come by or limited to certain "lanes"? -- makes sense. I'll see if I can get my hands on a copy of SEiv to try it out. That must be possible over here in Germany, no? Any particular mods you people recommend for a beginner (but weathered TBSer) looking for good AI play?

thanks tons

Re: Interested in SE-V -- differences to GalCiv II
 

Ships have engines, which generate movement points. This movement rate is used to move X sectors (squares/hexes) on the system map in a turn. To move between systems, you move into a sector containing a warp point, then use a move point to warp into the sector in the connected system containing the other end of that warp point. Combat movement is based off of strategic movement. In SE4, it is related by the function floor((m + 1) / 2), aka divide by two and round up. In SE5, things get harrier, and the relation involves converting the move value into distance moved in each time increment (on the order of 50 ms or something).

Re: Interested in SE-V -- differences to GalCiv II?
 

The premiere AI mod for SEIV is the TDM-ModPack. It improves the AI and adds a number of new races, but doesn't change the stock technology tree.

Another popular AI mod is AI Challenge (AIC). I haven't actually played that myself, but I believe it does make some changes to the tech tree.

Re: Interested in SE-V -- differences to GalCiv II
 

As it is based off of Proportions 2, it makes quite a lot of changes to the tech tree.

Re: Interested in SE-V -- differences to GalCiv II
 

The demo of Space Empires IV should still be available on the malfador web site, I would think.

Re: Interested in SE-V -- differences to GalCiv II
 

SEIV Demo Download Link

Re: Interested in SE-V -- differences to GalCiv II?
 

It has the effect of limiting strategic movement to certain lanes, but more... There have been several game systems (board or computer) that allowed movement only between certain star stystems. What both Starfire & the SE games do is additionally put you into a particular point within the star system you are entering. That has particular tactical ramifications - the defender knows exactly where to wait for you. An advantage of this is it gives the weaker side a better chance to basically take advantage of terrain and weapon ranges.

If you are familiar with David Weber's "Honor Harrington" novels, Weber has also written (with co-author Steve White)several novels set in the Starfire game background. Before making the big-time as a novelist, Weber was at one point the lead game designer for Starfire (and White was his successor), so there was always a symbiotic relationship between the game and the novels - Weber (and White) understood the game and envisioned technological developments and other events in terms meaningful to the game system, and the game designers (even after Weber & White had both moved on) felt compelled to support new concepts from the novels in game expansion products. You might find yourself inspired if you can hunt up these novels in Germany (if your English is up to it, they are probably available from Amazon UK).

As previously recommended, TDM is a must-have for SEIV. The equivalent for SEV is Unnamed's AI Mod. In SEV, a lot of folks swear by Captain Kwok's "Balance Mod" - Kwok was an SEV beta tester and in fact there is a movement petitioning the designer to adopt Balance Mod as the official version. However, Balance Mod makes some pretty big changes vs stock, where Unnamed just changes AI files.

There is a guy working on a mod to make SEV more Starfire-like as well.