USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

After much digging all I've found out for certain in they had M7B1 Priests in 1946, M109 155mm in the mid 70's to Gulf War I, M107/M110 175mm/203mm's during Vietnam and until 1991 (5/11 used M109A3's and M110A1's during Gulf War I).

Can anyone point me to someplace I can find more info ?

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

Well for starters, there's a thread just starting on Tanknet on this subject, if you haven't yet I think you should start looking there.

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

The American artillery:
M107 And M110 - can transport only 2 shells. In game for some reason at it 20 shells. Somebody knows why?
Rate of fire - 2 shots in a minute

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...d/m107-175.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...10a2-specs.htm


http://www.wartechnic.ru/usa/army/se...110/text.shtml

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

*laughs*
Actually Plasma that's my thread.

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

I'm guessing the reasoning behind this is because this is a game, and a SP artillery piece that requires an ammo carrier to essentially be attached to it at all times would be sort of worthless in game terms.

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

As to the rate of fire I'm sure that's also a game convention.
I did some experimenting and at anything less then about 3-4 with the built in reduction in ROF for green troops gives a weapon a ROF of like one.

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

"I'm guessing the reasoning behind this is because this is a game, and a SP artillery piece that requires an ammo carrier to essentially be attached to it at all times would be sort of worthless in game terms."

Why?
After all what would happen in reality? It would have ammo carriers/dumps/whatever nearby. And since if I am not mistaken ammo loadout is one of the main variables in determining artillery units prices, I suspect a two rounds load would probably make the vehicle cheap enough to spare enough points to buy an ammo truck. I will test it to see if it is the case.

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

With a two rounds load the price goes from 33 points to 21.
The 12 points saving ins't enough to buy an ammo truck at 27 points. Apparently it is already so cheap that you simply cannot get enough savings to make the scheme work as it happens with more modern and expensive artillery.

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

As to the question at hand, someone who frequents this Yahoo group might have the answers, or have a good idea where they can be had:

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/TOandEs/

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

thatguy96
------------------
In game ammo carrier are separate units. For example, at Russian also is together with artillery and MRLS systems same ammo carrier, but nobody gives these artillery systems in 10 times more quantity of shells, than they carry with themselves.

Sorry for my bad English.

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

Yes, but as Marcello's testing point out, none of those other vehicles have such impossible restrictions in game terms. There is no artillery system I'm aware of in either US OOBs or the Russian OOB that is restricted to two shots and requires them to have a permanently attached ammo carrier.

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

Marcello and everyone, keep in mind that such units have to be designed for AI use as well. And the sure thing is that IA players can't handle ammo carriers properly.
From what I know, separate ammo carriers will tend to be rushed to the front just like regular armor, as will separate trucks. Maybe this has been corrected to some extent in the latest versions. And in real life, most self-propelled arty units are supposed to run along with ammo carriers, which carry most of the rounds, just as with towed howitzers.
Just look at the amount of shots available to any foot-going arty unit (from light mortars to heavy howitzers) compared to whatever the real unit could lumber around, and it should be pretty clear that this is all a gaming convention.

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

"And the sure thing is that IA players can't handle ammo carriers properly."

Yep, I forgot that the AI used its ammo carriers as VBIED.

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

I thought that real data participate in game. Or I am not right? In Russian OOB there is an artillery with 4 shells and 8 shells. In a life with these systems as well as with others is ammo carrier. Then it is necessary for these systems to give 40 shells and 80 shells?

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

In a quick search, I found the one instance where a tube artillery piece has 8 shells (Unit 812), I still can't find a tube artillery piece that has 4 shells, but I believe you when you say its in there. Maybe the basic load for the M107/M110 should be reduced to 10, and this would make all parties happy. 2 just seems ridiculous.

If you're going to take rocket artillery into account, then you should note that there are established conventions about rocket artillery in the MOBHack manual, and that even those in the US OOBs have 6 and 12 rockets.

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

Then it would be more logical to make all at whom less than 10 shells = 10 shells. That it did not look ridiculous.

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

AFAIK rocket artillery goes more or less with the actual factual loadout, and it's the rate of fire that is conventionally tweaked to suit the number of rounds. In other words, if your MRL has 40 rockets loaded (or 8 or 12 or 100), each of the two first weapon slots gets 20 ammo (or 4 or 6 or 50) and the ROF is similarly 20 (or 4 or 6 or 50). That's the convention of MRLs as far as I can tell.
Only exceptions are some rare makeshift contraptions (think Afghan trucks with UV helo rocket pods strapped on the back) and those MRLs with onboard reload (RM-70, Chinese Type-90...).

Kramax is right, there should be the same convention all over the OOBs for heavy SPHs, though I can't find which unit gets 4 shots in the latest Russian OOB. 2S5 gets 30 rounds, 2S4 has 20 and 2A7 only gets 8, but that's as low as it gets.

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

2S7 Pion - have 4 shells. In game it is incorrectly presented. And here updating 2S7M Malka - should have 8 shells onboard. About updating I shall write little bit later.

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

Unit 812, 2S7 Pion has 8 shells in game for primary weapon 118 (203mm 2A44 FG), at least according to the OOB I have, which is as of the 3.5 Update.

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

It probably will be soon corrected since in game an error.. 2S7 Pion - has appeared in 1976 with 4 shells onboard, 2S7M Malka - appears in 1983 with 8 shells onboard.

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

Oh, my mistake, I misunderstood what you were saying. My fault. Still, I think 4 is equally small for the unit to properly "function" inside of this game setting, regardless of what it is in real life.

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

Yeah I've been struggling with the ammo loadouts issue myself in my USMC OOB revision.

I figure we're "stuck" with certain things due to game conventions and AI limitations so I've been trying to interject "realism" with these in mind.

I'm hoping to put a beta copy of my revisions out by the end of September so I can get some feedback before I delve into the joys of a revised picklist.

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

Unit #812 in the Russian OOB is the 2S7 Pion - and it has only 8 shells on board. However It uses the alternate form for low or nil ready rounds - It is an X3 radio code, so is only purchasable by the human player. Therefore, it is up to the buying human player to provide ammo reload, or if a scenario designer is daft enough to use it with ammo trucks, to do the same [/b]and[/b] state that the owning side only ever be played by the human (unless you like kamikaze ammo trucks <G!>). The AI will buy the other available units, with 30 or so plus ready rounds.

Whichever design decision the oob designer takes is up to him really, as he sees fit for a particular OOB. 20 or so ready rounds (even if the chassis cannot take them) is the way to go, if the piece is allowed for AI use. X3 radio code and a low count (whether in reality available on the chassis or not) is another [/b]if[/b] there are other units of that class available for the AI to use and the pick list actually uses that sp-arty class.

(Scenario designers really should not use any SP-arty with those few rounds on-board in a scenario. Unless perhaps in a very short one! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. Even if playing stationary (defend or delay), ammo trucks might counter attack in the AI hands, or sp-arty pieces deployed near dumps or bunkers might be forced to move in reaction (e.g if damaged or routed). Very rarely, AI SPA if spotted (maybe not if dug in?) may also relocate to try to break the spot, and that can put them into a tank ambush position (as happened to some of my saladins trying to hunt down some soviet SPA once - they got whacked by the relocated SPA from ambush http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif! ))


Cheers
Andy

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

I can not understand. Than 2S7 Pion and 2S7M Malka - with 4 and 8 shells, differs from the specified American systems? You can setup also 2S7 - code 90 or 91 for example and to give it 20 shells. Or I that that shall not understand?
The problem in that in game also is played and by e-mail, and turns out that the person buying for example M107 or M110 - buys a unit with unreal quantity of an ammunition (shells). Also it concerns also quantities of shots in a minute.

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

I cannot find any "2S7M Malka" unit in the Russian OOB, so please indicate which OOB and which unit number it is, so I can check it (Assuming it is in a stock OOB - third party user OOBs are not of interest).

As I stated earlier - it is up to the oob designer who did the OOB in question as to what route he took (Human only with a few shells and X3 radio code or "generic" 20 or so rounds). Either approach is fine - there is no "Grand Unified OOB Design Theory", just guidelines. You get charged for the shells, in any case.

Cheers
Andy

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

Mobhack
--------------------
In game error.. 2S7 Pion - has appeared in 1976 with 4 shells onboard, 2S7M Malka - appears in 1983 with 8 shells onboard.

http://www.enemyforces.com/artillery/pion.htm

http://www.milparade.com/catalog/pdf/114.pdf

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

Thanks for clarifying this, Andy. Personally, I had forgotten that the 2S7 is X3 in the original OOB. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

So basically, the difference between US and Russian heavy SPHs is mainly in frequency of use. The 2S7 can get the real loadout because it cannot be used by the IA, while the M-110 can be used autonomously by the IA player.
Keep in mind that the M-110 is standard issue in US divisions, while the 2S7 is only used at army levels and above, right?

I'm of the opinion that the Russian OOB could do with a separate class for heavy SPHs as well (2S5, 2S7 and certainly the 2S4), but that's just a suggestion.

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

The problem here Andy is he has switched from discussing the unit that exists IN THE GAME to "reality" and what he is saying is in "reality" the 2S7 Pion was introduced sometime in 1976 and carried 4 shells onboard and the upgraded 2S7M Malka ( which we don't currently have in the game ) was issued with 8 shells on board.

When someone says "In game error" then starts discussing "reality" it gets confusing. That's we introduced a standardized error reporting procedure detailed at the top of this section.

We will look into the issue when we start work in the fall though I'm sure no matter what we do someone will think it should have been done differently

Don

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

DRG
----------------
My opinion. If to increase quantity of an ammunition for artillery it is necessary to increase for all. It turns out that AI will not buy Pion because of code X3 - because this artillery of an army level, and American M107 and M110 - artillery of a divisional level. Well I agree. But at game on PBEM - the American player gets advantage in quantity of an ammunition, and the Russian player will not buy Pion because of small quantity of an ammunition and small quantity of shots in a minute, and on a background of that that American SP Artillery M110 and M107 2 shells, and Pion 4 can transport all this in a reality only. " The dead cargo " turns out Pion in game simply i.e. nobody is necessary since it often should be recharged an ammunition - that endangering and artillery and ammo carrier, and losing turns for recharge.
It can is necessary to remove simply from game such artillery of an army level - Pion, Malka, Tulpan?

Re: USMC Self Propelled Artillery
 

I suppose you could remove such army level assets.

But then to be fair you should remove such things from every OOB since they all have a few.

Take for instance my work on the USMC OOB - we'd have to remove such things as HAWK SAM's because they're basically corps level assets (yes, they're part of the Air Wing that supports each division, but when you come down to it a Marine Division + Air Wing + Force Troops is basically a corps), and probably USAF (B-52's, F111's, F117's, CH-53 Pave Low's) and and USN (F-14, Seals) as units as well since they're not organic to the Marine Corps much less a division.

Just look at them as one of those things that's there as an option for scenario builders rather then something a player should expect to use in a battle.