Horned helmet
 

I usually give early thugs/SCs a horror helmet, but how about the horned helmet? Is the gore attack worth it? What kind of attack is this exactly?

At only 5 nature gems it doesn't seem expensive - gives 20 protection just like the horror helmet, which costs 10 death gems. Does anybody use this helmet?

Re: Horned helmet
 

If I already have fear I use gore helmet. The attack is just a head but.

Re: Horned helmet
 

The Gore is the same attack that some EA Lanka demon commanders (Rakshasa and something else IIRC) has. Low damage + str, -1 att -1 def, length 0.

Re: Horned helmet
 

The horned helm has the following effects.

-1 Attack
-2 Defense (-1 is repeated twice)
0 length
0 damage attack (this means the attack only does the value of the unit's strength)

I would never put this on an thug, personally. I think the -2 defense is killer.

Jazzepi

Re: Horned helmet
 

It gives an extra attack?
I prefer the spirit helm but that might keep a thug from closing which can be a problem.

Re: Horned helmet
 

Yes, it gives you one extra attack. I tested it just to make sure, and though I didn't realize this before the fatigue you incur from attacking appears to be only from one ROUND of attacks, not the number of individual attacks. While quickness might make you get multiple ROUNDS of attacks in a single turn and thus increase your fatigue/per turn, the horned helm does not.

I think horror helm is by far and away the best helm up until construction level 8 for large scale army fighting thugs. Even if you already have fear +0, it upgrades it to fear +5 which increases the radius, and obviously the strength. 5 points is a big jump for a morale check. The only possible exception to this is that the steel helm is construction level 0, which makes it cheap'n'easy to put on an undead pretender SC to clear out indies, and astral skull cap which increases MR.

Jazzepi

Re: Horned helmet
 

Spirit Helm does the casting, not the thug. It's just as automatic as the old Totem Shield.

Re: Horned helmet
 

I use it when fear's not a factor, or death gems are precious.
If you're facing R'lyeh, or Ermor, for instance, it's not bad. Admittedly, its not great, but for that level...

And I usually have spare nature gems since my races don't have nature mages, but I do get indies going.

I'd have to test this to be sure, but I don't think the horror helm upgrades all fear skills by +5, merely ones based on death magic. Shinuyama, here I come. I'll have results in a bit.

Retraction: I was wrong. A mujina with a horror helmet goes from fear (0) to fear (5) with a horror helmet.

Re: Horned helmet
 

I use the horned helmet a fair amount, often you simply don't have any other decent helm options.

Re: Horned helmet
 

However, while +5 fear affects more places, it doesn't have an equivalent +5 morale check. It simply goes from rolling against ten to rolling against 11. Not to be laughed at with the area increase, but its only one point jump for a morale check, not 5.

Re: Horned helmet
 

The horned helmet is the Wyrm's favorite headgear. He's got good strength to boost the attack, good hp and regeneration to not care about the loss of defense, and he can wear two. Plus, with his lack of other body slots, it's the only way he can express his individuality through clothing.

Re: Horned helmet
 

I disagree. The wyrm wins battles almost exclusively through fear routing. Giving -2 defense just makes him that much easier to hit, and wound, especially when he's likely to get surrounded by smaller units. He also has issues with the 0 length letting him get repelled by everything.

Jazzepi

Re: Horned helmet
 

Certainly, fear can win battles... but do you always want your opponent running? Sometimes you want defeat in detail.

As Agartha, or other no-cavalry races, lots of fear is pretty much a guarantee you'll see that army again soon enough, unless you can push forward NOW.

Let's check out the manual - it would be good for me to see the worm in practice with this setup, but I haven't tried it yet, so I'm a paper jockey.

"If the result is a hit, the attacker must make a morale check or abort his attack." Don't pretenders have 30 morale? Not quite 50, but more than enough to continue their attack.

So, the only consequences of being repelled is one point of damage taken by the attacker per attack, but the attack goes through anyways, so the short length shouldn't be a problem on a Wyrm. Besides, the worm attacks fewer times than his regen.

On the other hand, a unit gets a penalty to its defense for being swarmed, and apparently also gets a repel penalty each time it has been attacked, as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't tested it.

Re: Horned helmet
 

I can't imagine a battle I wouldn't want my opponent to route in. Routing is such a huge advantage for the attackers with the -4 to defense. Strategically it is better to win battles than lose battles. I would also like to note that you don't route the /entire/ opposing army at once with fear from the wurm pretender God, they route in squads. So it'd be great if you could route one squad of their main forces early in the battle with fear and split them off from the rest.

This isn't really important, with the 30 morale you're guaranteed to make the strike with your low length weapon, but that isn't the issue. The problem comes because when you have unit A attacking unit B and unit A has a shorter weapon (such as the horned helm) then they get hit by unit B during the repel attempt. This is just one more chance that you're going to have each round to get hit and one more chance to take a wound.

You're reading it wrong. The -2 repel applies to the defender with the longer weapon.

Really my issue with the helm, more than anything else, is the -2 to defense. I just think that the wurm can't handle getting hit anymore than it already does even with Awe. I know I wracked up 4 afflictions on my wurm in Starfall just by chewing through indies.

Jazzepi

Re: Horned helmet
 

Given the abysmal base 8 defense that Wyrms have the 2 points isn't going to make a whole heck of a lot of difference. Early game Wyrms survive combat through the awe/fear combo, regeneration, and a bit of natural protection. Their defense might save them from 1 attack out of the 20+ that will hit them if they're surrounded by size 2 units, which isn't at all a significant value.

The repel damage is also fairly insignificant, as the repel has to hit and penetrate the Wyrm's protection to matter, and even then it only does a single point of damage. The increased kill rate will generally be well worth the few points of damage, as it helps cause the assailants to rout and flee before they have a chance to kill it.

Re: Horned helmet
 

In my opinion, the best combo for Wyrms in early game is horror helmet and horned helmet. Horror helmet ofcourse adds to fear, but the ones you can't scare away you might as well kill, and an extra attack is very nice. Defense for wyrms is laughable-if you don't want your wyrm getting hit, add earth magic, luck pendant, etc. 2 points is nothing to worry about.

Re: Horned helmet
 

I'd have to agree with HoneyBadger. If you have a wyrm, you should get a Luck Pendant on it ASAP.

Re: Horned helmet
 

Repel is worthless in a lot of situations and fighting a wyrm is one of them - it /might/ do 1 damage and will never stop him attacking. Real scary.

Re: Horned helmet
 

My point is that it's more important to avoid taking more wounds than making your wurm able to do something that is highly irrelevant to his combat capabilities.

Jazzepi

Re: Horned helmet
 

I agree that its very important to avoid taking more wounds than necessary. But, I don't feel that Horned Helmets are a problem.

1). chance of a repel attack permanently afflicting a Wyrm is less than 1% in neutral dominion. This is based purely on hitpoints, and disregarding the benefits of regeneration.

2). any actual afflictions are likely to be caused by units attacking normally, especially cavalry, as they can, unlike repels, cause consequential damage, and the chance of an affliction is tied to the damage compared to max hit.

3). the horror helmet has the same defense penalty as the horned helmet. Any helmet is better than no helmet at all, as it will help prevent lost eyes, mute, etc.

4). 1 point damage wounds CAN be a problem, I'll give you that.

5). With a defense of eight, four attackers will have you down to zero def. A single square of three normal infantry will almost always get a hit in. Another minus -2 doesn't matter much unless you're going one on one in a deathmatch.

Re: Horned helmet
 

if the unit has plenty of strength, and att skill/defense skill/moral is high enough for it to hit, im going for the horns. ecxept if i have gladiator gloves on, as you can only attack one space per att round.