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-   -   Mod Warhammer Nation: Northern Greenskins (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=35823)

okiN August 20th, 2007 04:10 PM

Mod Warhammer Nation: Northern Greenskins
 
So, since Sombre is currently occupied with other stuff, I thought I'd try my hand at modding and have a go at the Greenies. Their army list is so huge that it will be split into two - North and South. I'll be doing the Northern nation first.

I've now taken the time to think a bit on how the army is going to pan out, compare notes extensively with Sombre and shamelessly copy his planning format. Here's what I've got so far.


OVERVIEW


This will be a pretty quirky nation in that its only sacred units will also be its somewhat lacklustre mages, namely the shaman mage-priests. Greenskin strategy centers around numbers, brute force and rapid expansion. Troops will therefore be relatively cheap, I doubt I'll have anything as capital only, and forts will be low-cost, quick-built, ramshackle affairs. A lot of the bosses will probably autospawn troops like Sombre's skaven leaders, reflecting how greenskins flock to the WAAAGH! They'll also all have a standard effect to encourage people using them on the front lines. Stronger commanders and especially heroes will probably be quite thuggable, but far from SC material.


WARHAMMER ORC


M 4
WS 3
BS 3
S 3
T 4
W 1
I 2
A 1
Ld 7


WARHAMMER GOBLIN


M 4
WS 2
BS 3
S 3
T 3
W 1
I 2
A 1
Ld 6



DOMINIONS ORC RACIAL STATS


HP - 14 (Toughness)
Prot - 5 (Toughness)
Str - 11 (Stronger than humans)
Att - 10 (Average)
Def - 9 (Low initiative)
AP - 10 (Average)
MR - 10 (Average)
Mor - 10 (Average. Despite their love for battle, orcs are unruly and prone to infighting)
Prec - 10 (Average)
Mapmove - 2 (Average)
Size - 2 (Orcs are bulky, but generally not much taller than humans. Bigger commanders will be size 3)

Other abilities

Recuperation (Orcs heal very quickly, and can even reattach severed limbs with some crude stitching), pillage bonus (Raider culture)
Black orcs have wasteland and mountain survival, standard from Quell Animosity, and overall better stats


DOMINIONS GOBLIN RACIAL STATS


HP - 9 (Toughness 3, but small)
Str - 9 (Str 3, but small)
Att - 8 (Low WS)
Def - 7 (Low WS and initiative)
AP - 11 (A little nimbler than orcs)
MR - 10 (Average)
Mor - 8 (Cowardly and unreliable)
Prec - 10 (Average)
Mapmove - 2 (Average)
Size - 1 (Will generally be grouped together with 4 as a size 4 unit)

Other abilities

Smaller pillage bonus (Orcs claim the best loot)
Night goblins have one extra point of def, stealth 0, dark vision and mountain survival.


NATION NOTES

As stated above, the nation lacks two of the most common Dominions nation edges, namely sacreds and strong magic. To avoid acute MA Ulm syndrome, however, I'm putting more emphasis on numbers and cost-effectiveness, and of course some fun national spells.
Forts will be cheap and quick to build, all units will be available everywhere and everything will be a bit cheap compared to quality.
Orcs don't tend to live long enough to die of old age, so that shouldn't be a worry.
Magic is quite low, emphasis mainly on nature and fire, with some death, earth and astral thrown in. Not very good researchers, but all mages will double as priests which leads to lower upkeep and greater versatility.
National spells will be quite low-research and fairly handy. I'll probably make them all require sacred path in addition to magic so that they'll be restricted to proper greenskin shamans. Having indy mages tapping into WAAAGH! energy would be pretty silly.
Some of the stronger and/or quirkier units will be available as summons, might even have some mob-summoning spells for the regular units. However I handle it, summons will probably be relatively cheap, just like recruitables.


WARGEAR


Choppa (The orcs' favourite fighty implement. High-damage, massive thing, which is more of a bludgeon than a bladed weapon)
Tusker charge (Gore attack for boars with a strong charge bonus)

Mostly I'll probably use vanilla weapons and armour, but we'll see where tweaking is necessary.


RECRUITS


Snotling (Weak, tiny goblinoids. Come in huge, ill-equipped groups that won't do much damage but can be used well as screening troops. Great at soaking up missiles and keeping enemies occupied due to being unbreakable.
Goblin Archer (Cheap missile troops)
Goblin (Common goblin mobs with spear and shield)
Goblin Wolf Rider (Fast, size 2 light cavalry armed with bow and spear. Flexible support troops)
Goblin Wolf Chariot (Size 3 trampler with bow, spear, sword and bite attacks, a bit fragile)
Night Goblin Archer (Self-explanatory)
Night Goblin (Night goblin mobs with sword and shield)
Night Goblin Fanatic (Massive ball and chain. Destructive and unpredictable)
Night Goblin Netter Team (Two netters and two clubbers to a unit. Nets incapacitate enemy, clubs deal out a nasty thumping.)
Orc Arrer Boy (Orc with bow and choppa. Flexible unit that is quite effective both at shooting and hand-to-hand)
Orc Boy (Basic orc with choppa and shield)
Orc Boy (Same as above but with spear and shield)
Orc Boy Big 'Un (Bigger and tougher orc with slightly better armor and two choppas)
Orc Boar Boy (Relatively slow, but very dangerous cavalry with a devastating charge. Lance usable once, choppa and shield, tusker charge)
Orc Boar Chariot (Size 4 trampler with choppa, shield and tusker charge attacks. Sure to cause disorder in the enemy ranks)
Black Orc (The elite of the greenskin horde - bigger, more skilled and even angrier than regular orcs, not to mention heavily armoured and sporting massive two-handed axes. Look out!)
Stone Troll (Hulking size 3 beasts with decent prot, high MR, regen, NNE and a bad disposition. In addition to their troll clubs they have an armour piercing short-range vomit attack. Low morale, however, so quite unreliable)
Giant (Here comes trouble! Hulking monsters sure to strike terror into the enemy's hearts)


LEADERS


Night Goblin Scout (Cheap scout)
Goblin Boss (Ldr 40, rides a giant wolf)
Goblin Shaman (Cheap H1 basic mage)
Night Goblin Big Boss (Ldr 40, cheapish)
Night Goblin Warboss (Ldr 80, mounted on a great squig)
Night Goblin Shaman (H1, slightly better than the common goblin shaman, only mage that can cast the squig unit rituals)
Orc Big Boss (Ldr 40, good fighter)
Orc Warboss (Ldr 120, dangerous fighter, boar-mounted)
Orc Shaman (H2, middle ground mage)
Orc Great Shaman (H2, most powerful greenskin mage)
Black Orc Big Boss (Ldr 80, improved standard, fierce fighter)
Black Orc Warboss (Ldr 160, improved standard, very powerful fighter)


HEROES


Grimgor Ironhide (Infamous black orc warboss, carries with his army a massive effigy of Gork hewed from a single boulder by Grimgor himself)
Borgut Facebeater (Grimgor's second in command, and a fierce black orc boss in his own right)
Morglum Necksnapper (Black orc warboss on a boar. A rare and dangerous combination)
Badruk 'Eadsplitta (A particularly nasty black orc big boss)
Gorbad Ironclaw (Legendary orc warboss mounted on his trusty boar, Gnarla)
Gorfang Rotgut (Famous big boss of the orcs of Black Crag)
Skarsnik, Warlord of the Eight Peaks (Night goblin warboss with a magic spellcasting trident and a giant squig bodyguard)


Grom the Paunch, Azhag the Slaughterer and Wurrzag will be left to the Southern nation. With a list this long, the Northern greenskins don't really need any multiheroes, not sure about the Southern ones.


SUMMONS


Goblin Doom Diver (Catapult-launched goblins gliding on a crude pairs of wings. I haven't decided yet how to do this, exactly, but it's too good to pass up)
Night Goblin Squig Hopper (Hard-hitting, fast, yet vulnerable to missile fire)
Night Goblin Squig Hunting Team (Two goblins and three squigs to a unit, lots of nasty bitiness)
Wyvern Rider (Orc Warboss on a wyvern. Dangerous!)


Everything is open to discussion at this point.

Endoperez August 20th, 2007 04:50 PM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
1 Attachment(s)
You could use the Jotun Vaetti sprites, or the goblin sprites from Conquest of Elysiun. Both have small inhuman spearmen and wolfriders. CoE also has an orc faction, which has orcs armed with large, two-handed swords, and spears/shields, and Orc Chariots, and several commander sprites that could be elite units as well. They're far from Dom-quality, but I think they'd be a very good starting point - apart from the orcs being 20 pixels high, instead of either 16 or 32 which would make them the same size as Dom-humans.

A screenshot of a collection of CoE orc units is attached. It's a bmp file.
Attachment 5441

okiN August 20th, 2007 05:04 PM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
Thanks, but those look so different from what I'm going for that I reckon it's easier to start from scratch. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Any comments on the sprites?

HoneyBadger August 20th, 2007 05:44 PM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
Very nice! Better than most of mine.

Endoperez August 20th, 2007 05:56 PM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
Goblin looks pretty good. The shield and the whole rearmost hand could be a bit more "forward", and not left behind the unit. Don't be afraid to cover parts of the unit.

Orc: the skin seems too bright, like plastic toy. I haven't checked it in Dominions, but I assume it'd be a bit too bright in Dominions.
The feet could end a bit higher, atm he looks like he's going to fall over any moment. Painopiste on liian ylhäällä, kokeile siirtää jalkoväliä vähän ylös ja vasemmalle.
The metal of the breastplate is too distinguished. It shouldn't be seen without zooming in, it shouldn't stand out like that. Now, you see a unit with an armor, not an armored unit. The focus is on something totally unimportant.

The shadowing is excellent, and the colors are nice. It seems these units would be easy to distinguish from one another. It's a very good first sprite. I didn't actually test what it'd look like in Dominions, so don't spend too much time in corrections until you get others' opinions as well.

HoneyBadger August 20th, 2007 06:05 PM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
Still a lot better than mine, but Endoperez is probably right.

okiN August 20th, 2007 06:27 PM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
1 Attachment(s)
I took down the skin saturation a bit and messed with the armor studs. Do you think this is better?
Attachment 5442

Endoperez August 20th, 2007 06:31 PM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
Yes. Much better IMHO, even though I still haven't checked it out in Dom.

okiN August 20th, 2007 06:34 PM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
1 Attachment(s)
I also moved the goblin's shield a little to the left.
Attachment 5443

Quote:

Endoperez said:The feet could end a bit higher, atm he looks like he's going to fall over any moment. Painopiste on liian ylh��ll�, kokeile siirt�� jalkov�li� v�h�n yl�s ja vasemmalle.

This was a concious decision. I tried to strike a balance between realism and the orc anatomy as represented by Games Workshop. Not perfect, but I don't think I can do much better.

HoneyBadger August 20th, 2007 07:03 PM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
Anybody else notice that Endoperez started speaking in tongues, in the middle of that statement?

Endoperez August 20th, 2007 07:15 PM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
Yep, okiN at least. I was talking about the orc's center of gravity being a bit too low, but couldn't remember the correct term in English.

okiN August 20th, 2007 07:50 PM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
1 Attachment(s)
I attacked the center of gravity issue by making both his legs one pixel thicker and shifting the left leg one to the right. I think it worked.
Attachment 5444

okiN August 20th, 2007 08:22 PM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
1 Attachment(s)
I also tweaked the goblin a little bit. What do you think of the changes?
Attachment 5445

Shovah32 August 20th, 2007 08:43 PM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
I think the new Orc is alot better - along with looking more balanced it just looks more 'orcy' - perhaps due to being a little bulkier.
I also prefer the new goblin - mainly due to the change to his arm - but to me he now looks like he is wearing a dress http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

okiN August 21st, 2007 04:17 AM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
Not entirely sure how to fix that one. It's meant to be a tunic-style leather rag.

Endoperez August 21st, 2007 04:28 AM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
Much better. Very good work there. The goblin's spear is a bit thicker than other Dominions spears, but I think you meant it that way.

I like the fur-wearing look of goblins. Simple clothes for simple creatures!

okiN August 21st, 2007 04:33 AM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
1 Attachment(s)
Thanks. I added a little bit between the goblin's legs to make the tunic less even and shaded the spear.
Attachment 5446

Unless you guys have anything else, I think I'm done with these two. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Endoperez August 21st, 2007 04:40 AM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
They're both very good.

Which wolf are you going to use to pull the chariot? Normal, size 2 variety, or size 3 Dire Wolf variety, or size 4 shapechanged Skratti variety?

okiN August 21st, 2007 04:43 AM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
1 Attachment(s)
Normal or dire wolf, I'll have to have a look. Definitely not the Jotun wolf, no way the gobbos would be able to rein that thing in. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I might also tweak it a bit to make it match the rest of the units, but we'll see.

Here's the orc boy's attack animation.
Attachment 5447

okiN August 21st, 2007 06:51 AM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
1 Attachment(s)
Goblin attack animation.
Attachment 5448

I'm not entirely happy with just moving their arms like that, I'd like the attack frames to be a bit more dynamic. Maybe I'll come back to them later.

Endoperez August 21st, 2007 07:08 AM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
Moving the whole sprite a pixel or two forward could help. The little jump makes it seem to actually move.

okiN August 21st, 2007 07:39 AM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
I actually did that already, but thanks for the tip. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Endoperez August 21st, 2007 08:05 AM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
Hard to tell when there's no dividing line between the squares. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Good work, and good luck with the rest of them. I doubt I'll be able to offer as much advice for the next few weeks, though.

Humakty August 21st, 2007 12:37 PM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
For sure I wouldn't dare a remark before I could do at least half as good. I'm longing for a good Waagh.
I wish okiN will not get bored before having finished.(since I most probably would...)
May Gork and Mork assist you in your hard work.

okiN August 21st, 2007 02:07 PM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
1 Attachment(s)
I've finished the boar boy. Here he is, mounted on a shrunken Fay boar.
Attachment 5450

Burnsaber August 21st, 2007 02:13 PM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
I'm no artist, but I like the look of the Boar boy.

HoneyBadger August 21st, 2007 02:24 PM

Re: Badlands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
I figured it was Finnish or a related language. Thanks for clearing that up for me, Endoperez. Your English is quite good-enough that I assumed it was your first language.

Question for okiN: Which stage of the artwork are you posting? The first presentation, or the results after comments?

okiN August 21st, 2007 02:42 PM

Re: Dark Lands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
I'm posting a basically finished sprite that is subject to change depending on comments.

As before, any comments, criticisms and suggestions are welcome.

okiN August 22nd, 2007 10:22 AM

Re: Dark Lands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
1 Attachment(s)
There's the arrer boy done.
Attachment 5453

Humakty August 22nd, 2007 11:59 AM

Re: Dark Lands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
I finally will make a comment : I think you could make your weapons look more brutal and orcish, to make yourself an idea, you could look at the sprites of the black moon mod (you'll find it in the 11 nations mod).

okiN August 22nd, 2007 04:50 PM

Re: Dark Lands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
I've had the same thought, but do you have any concrete suggestions? The amount of pixels I have to work with is very limited, and I have trouble fitting details like that in. Keep in mind, this is my first foray into the field of pixel art.

Humakty August 24th, 2007 09:03 AM

Re: Dark Lands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
I am nothing like a pixel artist. I am not even a wannabee.
I am to the zero point of pixel talent. I thought maybe you, by looking to another mod, could have an idea of how did he managed to have is weapons look that way with two pixel. Anyway, I will play your mod EVEN if your weapons aren't perfectly brutal and orcish, but it's because I 'm someone who is really kind and gentle, or maybe I'm lazy, or untalented.
Sorry I couldn't help you more with graphics, you should ask Sombre, He seems to have a huge know how. (and pray he has some time for you).
By the way , if the relatively simple programmation bores you, I can be of some help, I don't like to be utterly useless.

Sombre August 24th, 2007 10:24 AM

Re: Dark Lands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
I think Okin is probably a better sprite artist than me and he uses GIMP, so the help I can give him graphically is seriously limited. He does talk to me on IRC though, in the dom3 channel.

Humakty August 24th, 2007 10:49 AM

Re: Dark Lands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
I apologize if anyone is hurt in anyway. I never heard of okiN before, you've already done a lot of impressive pixel work, so I thought that if anyone could help him, it would be you.I'm not trying to rate pixel drawers in anyway, as I think that to be rated by someone who really is not good at what you're doing can be 'quite' frustrating.
By the way, I'm happy to know modders help each other.Are they some good info on this channel, or is it private ? If it is not, I would gladly try to learn and improve myself.
Maybe that after having learned, I will ask less stupid questions.

Sombre August 24th, 2007 11:01 AM

Re: Dark Lands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
The channel is open to all and it's a good place to discuss stuff, yeah, it's pretty busy too, at least at the right times. You can find the odd blitz in there, talk mods with me etc etc.

Good place to drop by basically.

Humakty August 24th, 2007 11:16 AM

Re: Dark Lands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
Where could I find this land of lust ?
I guess it's really simple to find, but I don't even have a clue of where is this channel, or how I could reach it.
Ahh, I could become a modder, opening for me a life of hard work, having to bear the comments of people who maybe don't know how much I work.(for nothing but the love of it)
It seems fun ...

Sombre August 24th, 2007 12:07 PM

Re: Dark Lands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...o=&fpart=1

If you read that thread, you should be able to get it working.

Humakty August 24th, 2007 12:37 PM

Re: Dark Lands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
Thanks,I'll try and get it working so I can join and impregnate myself with the wisdom of the ancients.
My PC is not connected to the web, so it might take some time...(or, as always, you can blame my legendary laziness)

okiN August 24th, 2007 01:54 PM

Re: Dark Lands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
1 Attachment(s)
Heh, don't worry, Humakt, I'm certainly not insulted. I was just wondering if you might be a bit more specific, but no big deal if not. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Here's the arrer boy attack animation.
Attachment 5457

Incidentally, have you ever played King of Dragon Pass?

Humakty August 27th, 2007 06:04 AM

Re: Dark Lands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
Well, I'll take a specific example : your boar rider uses a three bladed spear, I found it strange because it seems to me a rather complicated weapon for the orcs to forge. I think they would rather use weapons with a simple and solid design, with a large blade for example. (An orc spear could look like a small halberd)If any orc craftman feels insulted, I apologize...
P.S. : no, I didn't play this game, it never reached my isolated country http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif, but I played Rune Quest RPG. Maybe you recognized my name, I don't know if I will not change it into Humakti, feels less pretentious.

okiN August 27th, 2007 06:58 AM

Re: Dark Lands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
This was my main reference for the boar boy. I tried various designs with the spear, with and without extra spikes, but couldn't really produce with anything I was happy with - including the one I ended up using. That's how it goes, I guess. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

As for your nick - I guess it is kind of presumptuous to name yourself after a death god. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Humakty August 27th, 2007 07:19 AM

Re: Dark Lands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
Yep, could get taunted in MP (if I would lose, but I wouldn't, cause I'm so much whatever)(for the moment, I don't play MP, I wait for other players to reach my game insight)(but if I do one day, I expect people will have forgotten these lines).
It seems warhammer corp and I don't have the same point of view on what should be an orc weapon. The only solution left to me is to create my own miniatures.
It is somewhat true that an orc craftman could create strange and original weapons, in an atempt to compensate for is lack of talent, compared to the elves or humans.( as always, if an orc read these lines, I want him to know I'm so sorry)

okiN September 16th, 2008 05:22 PM

Re: Dark Lands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
2 Attachment(s)
Right, returning from a long hiatus - we're back! I decided to kick off the reunion tour by redoing the old sprites, which I detemined were a bit too small for orcs relative to the average size of units in the game. I've got the orc and arrer boyz done, and they're looking tougher and nastier than ever before.

I'll do the boar boy and maybe even the goblin tomorrow, once they're out of the way I'll start working on all-new sprites. Get ready, 'cause da boyz are back in town, an' dere lookin' to crack some 'edz!

Attachment 6843Attachment 6844

okiN September 17th, 2008 07:11 AM

Re: Dark Lands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
The new boar boy is done. That is one huge hog, but I guess it's still an acceptable size 3 unit. :P

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/6...oyboth2gk1.png

As always, if you're reading this like what you see (Or, indeed, all the more so if you don't), tell me! All comments, so long as they're helpful, are appreciated.

Edratman September 17th, 2008 07:20 AM

Re: Dark Lands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
Sprites look very nice.

I'll be stealing them for sure.

Sombre September 17th, 2008 07:49 AM

Re: Dark Lands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
The Orc riding the boar could perhaps use a bit more contrast between skin/armour. Grey and green of similar brightness/hue don't stand out too well from each other.

Aezeal September 17th, 2008 08:57 AM

Re: Dark Lands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
I'd say a bit darker skin and the armor even more dark.. I like it dark :D

I know I'm getting the habit of using a bit largish sprites myself.. but the size of the orcs.. is that the right height? I'd say orcs need to be about human size and it seems a bit smallish. (I admit the orcs I'm using for dom 3000 are huge and giant like though)

okiN September 17th, 2008 09:25 AM

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/5...oyboth2wf3.png

Better? I messed with the colours a little, but tried not to overdo it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aezeal (Post 638846)
but the size of the orcs.. is that the right height? I'd say orcs need to be about human size and it seems a bit smallish.

I compared them to a few human sprites and I think they're pretty ok now. They're a little taller and a fair bit bulkier, with slightly different skeletal proportions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edratman (Post 638838)
Sprites look very nice.

I'll be stealing them for sure.

Thanks, but please ask first. :P

Aezeal September 17th, 2008 09:50 AM

Re: Dark Lands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
I'd make it darker :D and the attacksprite spear seems strange on the tip, the other one looks nice, I'd use that head on the attack sprite too.

Edratman September 17th, 2008 10:12 AM

Re: Dark Lands Greenskins - Warhammer Nation
 
That was meant as a compliment.


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