TOTAL WAR 1985
 

1985,
August...

...the Big Showdown in Europe has finally commenced.

In this thread there will be a few scenarios, the majority loosely based on the hypothetical WWIII set-up described in the various books by John Hackett.



“The World Wars were characterised
by the fact that the resources of whole nations
were placed at the disposal of the military,
and that massive losses were accepted in a “total war”.

- Marco Smedberg,
Warfare; from Austerliz to Baghdad






http://server2.uploadit.org/files/op...OTAWAR1985.JPG

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

http://server3.uploadit.org/files/op...-DDR_fskj3.JPG

OPERATION STOSS

West Berlin is to be taken in a lightning move by primarily East German forces. In the French sector, paratroopers of the Luftsturmregiment 40 "Willi Saenger" are to assault the Berlin-Tegel Flughafen...

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

Great, Hackett scenarios! Testing right away!

What do you have on the French sector forces at that point? I once tried a full-scale Berlin battle based on the existing Berlin map, and I ran out of formation slots about half-way...
Five brigades plus reinforcements can do that to a scenario.

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

To be fair, the OPERATION STOSS scenarios are not quite Hackett based, but there is some material floating around, so I thought it could be fun to include. IIRC Hackett had the WP leave West Berlin more or less untouched...


The main army combat formations were, from what I understand, one tank Bn (11th Regiment Chasseurs) and one mech inf Bn (46th Regiment d'Infanterie), supported by an engineer company.

But there were also a number of Misc forces, including the Base Ariénne 165 at Berlin-Tegel. The actual plans of deployment etc is of course mostly guesswork, but what the h*ll...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/stupid.gif

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

You can do Team Yankee battles. Harld Coyle's book is set in Sir John Hackett's stoy of the third world war. It will give you alot more battles. Also, don't forget the Third World War, Untold Story. This is also by Sir John Hackett.

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

very nice. looking forward to more scenarios.

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

one thing i dont know that there is a Airport called Hegel in berlin. we call it Tegel ;P

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

Well..., just weeks prior to WWIII the airport was renamed in honour of the great German philosopher Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel.

Originally Immanuel Kant had been suggested, but a popular British comedy group had constructed a song where the ryhme "Immanuel Kant was a real p*ssant" was included, and there was some speculation as to this being the reason why Hegel was chosen in the end. Later events (WWIII) greatly overshadowed the various twists surrunding the renaming of the airport.



No, seriously...., it's a typo. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

Hmm, wasn't Hackett the guy who made the dutch look bad in the fight! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

The Dutch..., IIRC there was something about Dutch troopers having too long hair..., but look bad, I dunno - the Danes and Italians get hammered..., so too the Austrians..., the Finns don't even fight...hmm...

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

No. I read both books and if I remember right, the Dutch did well. In the battle of Minden(Third World War, The Untold Story), the Dutch with U.S. Air Force support stop an Warsaw Pact break out attempt cold.

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

I was thinking more off the breakthrough on the north german plain which was mainly defended by the dutch while we all know the red hordes wouldn't stand a chance against out long-haired samsoms. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

(Just some harmless chauvinism here)

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

Ahh yes. Northern part of Germany was Defended by the Dutch, Belgiens, Germans and the Brits. Northern part of Germany would be the hardest to defend because it's wide open flat lnd and rolling hill. Perfect tank country.

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

Not quite true I'm afraid. Only the part defended by the dutch and germans was 'open country'. The british and belgians had failry hilly and wooded terrain. Not good tank country at all.
But even the open part had it problems, there's only a small open corridor between Hamburg and Luneburg for the soviets to push through. After that it does widen but the whole area is rife with streams, rivers and canals. And depending on the season the rain made a lot of the open terrain to 'wet' for heavy vehicles. And lots of towns and villages were an advance could run into trouble.

So while it was certainly better tank terrain than the rest of west germany (except perhaps the stretch between munich and the danube) it doesn't come close to the open fields of the soviet union. It certainly wasn't perfect tank country.

Narwan

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

Is the real life airport that huge? Remember that just two hexes = a football field in real life.

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

Truthfully, no idea..., if not I guess they rebuilt it just before WW3.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Btw Mark, you've been there for real?



Here's the map I used as a basis for the MBT map. Can't say I did much meassuring of distances though... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

http://server2.uploadit.org/files/op...erlintegel.JPG

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9264/tegelhofok8.jpg

Yellow line is 87 hexes long;

the center runway is 60 hexes long, bottom is 50.

The military base at the top is 20 hexes by 2.

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

hmmm...., I'm going to have to scale it down, my air field is about twice the size of the real one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

This may be of interest for this project. It's a link to the most detailed list of NATO forces I've seen so far. It's an OB for 1989 though, not 1985, but it should allow for a good reference point.
Not all nations are as equally well detailed though. The real beauty here AFAIK is the german territorial forces.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/37695/NATO...of-Battle-1989

I've also attached the document as pdf file.

Narwan

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

Hmm, the above link shows V3.0 of the obat. Somehow I managed to download a V7.3 of it but I can't find where I got that one. Anyway here's an even more detailed obat. In this one the german heimatschutzen units are detailed down to individual companies, platoons and demolition teams in the different VKK's. And more. Have fun!

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

http://www.lesanciensdesffb.com/46eme_RI/a_46aut.gif

Operation Stoss: A Task Unworthy

East German forces plunge into West Berlin. Border Guards and regular army forces strike the Wedding area, defended by the French soliders of the 46th Regiment d'Infanterie and 11th Regiment de Chasseurs...

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

Would you mind if I join in Ulf? I've been thinking of doing some scenario's for a while now and this seems like a perfect set-up to base some of them in. I'm actually almost done with my first one, tinkering with deployment and balance (flags, turns, AI settings, that sort of thing). They say the first one is the hardest! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Anyway, I'm thinking of doing a whole series in the 1985 NATO-WP set-up and all focused on the Schleswig Holstein- Jutland area. In other words, a 'sideshow' theatre, but one with lot's of options (German Bundeswehr and Heimatschutzen, Danes, Brits, Americans and even Dutch on the NATO side) and all sorts of WP 'secondary' formations.

First one is a small battle (aprox 10 - 12 turns, reinforced companies on both sides) of a german HS infantry company defending a vital crossroads against a heavily reinforced Polish mech company. The battle is located just NW of Lubeck and assumes the Polish attack forces managed an early penetration in/around Lubeck and are pushing troops through. The polish mech cie is the lead element of the advancing battallion. It's more or less configured according to actual WP doctrine for the lead elements for such an advance.

And in case you hadn't guessed yet, I have a thing for the german HeimatSchutzen formations! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Hope to have it ready within a few days. I was thinking of tweaking it to be primairily playable as a small and fast PBEM scenario for 2 human players. Guess I'll need it tested then won't I? Hint, hint...

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

By all means go ahead!

We talked some about this previously IIRC, I still have the maps links - but time is in seriously short supply right now...

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

These are slightly different battles, a bit more to the north. Probably the reference to possible dutch troops threw you off. Those aren't the regular dutch troops destined for the north german plain but the marine group attached to the UK royal marines/commando brigade which was part of NATO's AMF force. Reinforcements for the danish/german peninsula would come from those AMF formations.

Anyway, here's the first scenario. It's small and should allow for some fast play. Any and all comments are welcome, especially with regards to balance (against AI and for human v human).

Background:
The war is a couple of hours old; polish troops have broken through the northern outskirts of Lubeck. The heavily reinforced lead company of the third battallion of the 52MRR is ordered to take the village of Curau with a hasty attack. A quick victory is crucial so there is no time for subtleties. Attack!


At first you're just dealing with the artillery battery and their support elements under your command. Now you find yourself the ranking officer facing a WP breakthrough. You send some of the artillery units back, but not all, and take charge of all forces present. And hope for the best...

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

Sounds a bit dubious to me. It is no longer 1940 and we Danes at least were NOT prepared to go down without a fight in the late 80-ies despite the "Footnote-Policy", as an example of Danish determination the Home Guard peaked at 71000 members in the late 80-ies.

In the Danish armed forces at that time (which I have been a mamber of since 1988) that we would probably be overwhelmed by sheer numbers unless reinforced. But that we expected to go down fighting hard and would be reinforced on Day 4+ of an invasion. That the WAPA expected to take us out in 2-4 days but that we could hold for 5-6 even without support and would then go Guerrilla to the end. We would never- EVER be taken without a fight and that 9th of April burned us with shame.

Italians... dunno, it is no longer 1940, seems to me that their pros are pretty good and Italy was made for defence as the W.Allies discovered in WWII. Austria is very defensible as well, and Finland not even fighting is ridiculous. Finland... anyone heard of Sisu?

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

The Third World War: August 1985 is a book written by the British general John Hackett in 1978. The purpose was a bit to "open the eyes" of people. It focus on a fictional NATO vs WP war of 1985, in broad terms but also brings up events in other parts of the world, not just Europe.

In 1982 a squel was published called The Thrid World War: The Untold Story. It has probably the same message but focus on other subjects, much is form the Soviet/WP point of view, but chapter 12 is called The Scandinavian Campaign.

It details events leading up to Swedish and Soviet air and naval clashes, and expands on events in Finland, Norway and Denmark.

The loss of Jutland on the first day of hostilities, and the consequential loss of Schleswig-Holstein shortly after was due to the combination of an intense chemical attack on Jutland and a coup de main by assault forces concealed in Soviet, East German and some ostensibly neutral merchant ships on passage through the Kattegat. These had made almost unopposed landings in Aarhus, Aalborg and Frederikshavn on Jutland.

Zealand had fallen after hard fighting between the reinforced Danish defence and a seaborne assault force mounted from the western Baltic ports. Unexpectedly, Bornholm, its radar and radio resources smashed by air attack, had been left to its own devices until, almost at leisure, a Polish airborne division had fallen upon it.

Many of the Allied aircraft in the BALTAP (Baltic Approaches) Tactical Air Force escaped to the Federal Republic of Germany or to Norway. A daring naval operation, covered by air, was mounted by Commander, South Norway, to rescue some of the Danish and British troops from Zealand and in the final phase of the battle for the island. Though four of nine warships and transports were lost, the remainder returned intact to unload in the Oslo fiord. The aircraft and troops from BALTAP were absorbed as reinforcements to south Norway, or moved to reinforce the north.

Later on the Finns turn on the Soviets, I'm guessing the author(s) had heard of Sisu:

On that morning, too, CINCNORTH learned from his colleague, the Chief of the Norwegian Defence Staff, that the Finns had turned upon the Soviet Forces in their country. Since early in August, the Finnish armed forces had been obliged to aid deployment of the Red army in the passage of formations, ground and air, across their large, empty land. Soviet war regulations had been enforced along these lines of communication, arbitrary demands made for resources of labour and material, war measures introduced such as the blacking out of all lights at night. The Finnish people, conditioned by the prudence of Paasakivi and Kekkonen, had complied to some extent with these requirements. But they were also the same sort of people that Mannerheim had led, a people with a clear idea of individual liberty.

When the moment came to turn upon the Soviets, it was not done by a signal from above; indeed, it followed a spontaneous act of indignation arising from the arrogant behaviour of the officers of a Soviet logistic control centre. It was not done so much on the basis of attacking a body of waning power but at a time when the Finns could no longer tolerate the position of manifest subservience to which they had been brought. Small though their numbers were, all but a handful turned to fight the Soviet forces, which had seemed to make them a dependency once more.

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

Yeah, I know, this is a wall of text, but for the laugh at the end, I guess it's worth it. My guess is the author(s) not only about the Finnish sisu, but also the relationship between SWE - DK.

:D


This was not quite the last battle for the recovery of territory occupied by the Soviet Union in the northern region. CINCNORTH had gradually been gathering together a land force for the recovery of Denmark and Schleswig-Holstein. The Commander, BALTAP, a Danish officer, driven out of Jutland on the first day of war, had been engaged since his arrival in Norway in planning the liberation of these territories.

The British and Dutch Royal Marines were concentrated in south Norway on 18 August, with the Danish and British forces recovered from Zealand. Given the depletion and demoralization of the Soviet occupation forces in the Baltic Approaches, this force overall might just secure and sustain a lodgement in north Jutland under air cover from the airfields of south Norway. The prime limitation was shipping, the only amphibious shipping being the remnant recovered to Norway from the German and Danish navies in the first week of August, to which might be added a slender increment of Norwegian landing craft. It was doubted whether the numbers that these could carry in the first lift could hold territory against a counter-attack mounted prior to the return of the second and subsequent ferrying. Much hinged upon the ability of the Danish Home Guard, now operating as a clandestine and deliberately passive force, to co-ordinate uprising with an Allied landing.

Although the enemy were depleted in Jutland, CINCNORTH considered them still a force to be reckoned with. An assault landing at this stage would be very risky. He proposed instead a strong raid. The group of CINCEASTLANT’s warships that had escorted the US Marine sea force into Trondheim were available to CINCNORTH for short-term contingency operations. The F-16 Fighting Falcon force at Rygge had been reinforced from Orland and, in the same deployment from that area, the air bases at Lista and Sola had now a notable air defence and ground strike capability. The intelligence provided by the Home Guard indicated that Frederikshavn was vulnerable to a raiding force of about two battalions and a squadron of tanks. This was now scheduled for the evening of 20 August.

Over the next two days of preparation, the operation seemed to hang in the balance. All the amphibious force was concentrating at Kragero and Kristiansund: could they survive there? Commander, BALTAP’s answer was to put the force to sea; in the circumstances they were as safe in these waters as anywhere. They entered the Kattegat in darkness, a little late, and landed at Frederikshavn early on the morning of the 21st.

There was a brief struggle with the Soviet garrison before it surrendered. Then, suddenly, the occupation force began surrendering everywhere - to the raiders, who remained, and to the Home Guard who emerged in uniforms with weapons. COMBALTAP sent off more units to join the raiders and then seemed to disappear. A week later he met CINCNORTH in Copenhagen as the latter stepped from his aircraft to call on the Danish Government, restored to their offices and the Christianborg Palace. There was a report in a Swedish newspaper that ran roughly as follows:

‘I hear you came down to liberate Zealand personally,’ said CINCNORTH. ‘Is it true that you travelled by train and road through Sweden with the Gardehusar Regiment, and then crossed the Sound, on car ferries?’

‘Yes, Sir,’ said COMBALTAP (a Dane, as will be recalled). ‘You see, it was a race against time.’

‘You mean you were afraid the Soviet troops might . . .’

‘No, not the Soviet troops. I was just afraid that if I didn’t get a move on, Copenhagen would be liberated by those perishing Swedes!’

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

Good books both of them.

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

Good for the Vikings,they are almighty,,never won a war but cheers anyway:)

Re: TOTAL WAR 1985
 

"But there were also a number of Misc forces, including the Base Arié®®e 165 at Berlin-Tegel. The actual plans of deployment etc is of course mostly guesswork, but what the h*ll..."

I added the Gendarmerie company with AML 60's:)