Evermore - MegaGame - Winner: AdmiralZhao!
 

Evermore

Evermore Status Page: http://67.66.187.69/dominions3/stats.php?game=Evermore
Latest Scores.html file: Forthcoming

Game Type: TCP/IP (static server)
Speed: 24 hours per host for the first 21 turns moving to 48 hours per host until around turn 65+ in which it moves to 72.
Quickhost: enabled.
Era: Middle (this is for indy strength)
Players: 28
Map: 465 provinces with 63 of them being water. This equates to about 16.5 provinces per player. You can download the map here: http://67.66.187.69/dominions3/evermoremap.zip
Research Speed: Difficult
Victory Conditions: 275 out of 465 (60%) provinces controlled for three consecutive turns, or the surrendering of all other players (the latter is much more likely).
Graphs: On
Hall of Fame: 15
Renaming: On
Magic Site Frequency: 40
Deadline for Pretenders: Oct 4th 10PM
Length: If you aren’t eliminated this game might last a very long time. Be prepared!
Patch Level: Once released we will upgrade to the patch ASAP.
Mods: We will be using the Mega-mod V2 here: http://67.66.187.69/dominions3/mega-agev2.zip In addition to allowing all the nations of all eras to play it will also change the following:
• Arcane Nexus will not be available to cast.
• Clam of Pearls will require a path 2 (instead of 1) in Nature Magic (Water will stay the same). This will increase the cost to forge.
• Fever Fetishes will require a path 2 (instead of 1) in Fire Magic (Nature will stay the same). This will increase the cost to forge.
• Blood Stone will require a path 3 (instead of 2) in Earth Magic (Blood will stay the same). This will increase the cost to forge.

Connect info
67.66.187.69 port: 10020

How the Nations were awarded:
1st Seed: After the deadline I will award nations based on the player's first choice. If multiple players desire the same nation I will randomly select the player that is assigned the nation.
2nd Seed: We repeat the last step with those players that still have not been awarded nations and still have preferences. Players who are awarded a second seed get a 10% population increase in their capital.
3rd Seed: Repeat the Second Seed except the award is 20% population increase in their capital.
4th, 5th, 6th, etc Seed: Continue until there are no more conflicts, awarding and additional 10% per each seed.
Last Seed: On the seed where there are no more conflicts the final preferred nations are awarded and all the remaining players (those that ran out of preferences or never provided any) are randomly assigned the remaining nations. Whatever Seed level this ends up being is the population bonus all the remaining players will get. The seed cap limit will be 5 (i.e. 150% pop bonus).

Nation Assignment To see a detailed list of how the seeding occured go here: http://67.66.187.69/dominions3/Evermore_Seeds.html

Delays/Stales: There will be NO (Zero, Zip, Zilch) delays in the game UNLESS there was a server/hosting error. In which case we might rehost or delay the turn depending on the amount of people affected. If we ever get down to 10 or less players (unlikely) I’ll consider allowing short delays.

Exception: Over the Thanksgiving & Christmas holidays the turns will be extended for approximately 1 week each.

Due to the number of players I will be rather ruthless in enforcing the stale rule. No one will stale more than twice in a row before they are replaced or put on AI unless they let me know beforehand. If you let me know you will be gone you will not be replaced but the game will not be held up for you. Replacements/Subs will be found as per all my other games (see below).

Other Rules: The same rules that apply to all my other games also apply here. Please read these rules if you haven’t already:
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...amp;PHPSESSID=

Nations - Players
EA Ermor - Davegg
EA Marverni - Solo (20%)
EA Sauromatia - duke_commando
EA Abysia - Velusion (10%)
EA Caelum - Evilhomer (10%)
EA Tir na O'og - Roland (20%)
EA Helheim - Yucky (20%)
EA Niefelheim - Szumo
EA Yomi - FAJ
EA R'lyeh - Salamander8
EA Oceania - atul
MA Ermor - Dr. Praetorious
MA Pythium - BigandScary
MA Man - Theonlystd (20%)
LA Pangaea - Jazzepi (20%)
MA Abysia - Thrawn
MA C'tis - Ubercat
MA Vanheim - DryaUnda
MA Shinuyama - Aezeal (20%)
MA Atlantis - Baalz (20%)
MA R'lyeh - Lingchih (10%)
LA Arcoscephale - Ramshead (10%)
LA Ulm - Sensori
LA Marignon - Zaramis
LA Mictlan - AdmiralZhao
LA C'tis - coobe
LA Midgard - Lolomo (20%)
EA Lanka - Hadrian II

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

Sounds awesome Velusion.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

I would really, really like this to be a wrap around map.

Jazzepi

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

you could do a manual wrap around. It would be ugly, but would work.. just link all the border provinces to the province on the other side? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif see them as teleporting provinces with strange gates that allow them to cross over the blackness of the edge.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

Ugly maps need not apply.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

The map wouldn't be ugly. Just the method of wraparound..

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

I think I remember Gandalf saying he tried that on his tower map and it wouldn't work.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

Here is a batch of max-sized wrapped maps.
http://www.dom3minions.com/RandomMap...ax_Wrapped.htm
For people who dont know, notice that the right side matches up to the left side, and the top matches up to the bottom. The game will allow you to scroll right-left and up-down forever by rolling the map.

Most of these are 1500 provinces. Its hard to get things quite right using the generator Im using (ParadoxHarbinger's MapGen). Especially mountain ranges but I will continue working on it. I also might script in some changes to the files.
If you grab one of these (go here and grab the appropriate zip file)
http://www.dom3minions.com/RandomMaps/Max_Wrapped/
then I would recommend the following changes.
A) rename the tga and map file to something more interesting than Max_###
B) edit the #dom2title in the .map file to match (all of these are presently called PHMAP when you look at them in the game creation menu)
C) edit the #imagefile to use the renamed tga file
D) edit the #description. At least add the land and water counts (is there an awk script or something around here that will spit those numbers out from a .map file?)
E) add a #defaultzoom
F) if one of the maps is good but the mountains arent right then you might take it into a paint program and "drop" brown into more provices, then use the map editor in Dom3 to change them to mountain terrain

If you want changes (colors, amount of xxxx terrain, etc) let me know and I will see about running a new batch with that change.

I think now I will mess with the "sprites" thing and see if I can generate new maps with little pictures of trees, mountains, etc. Eventually (maybe) I will get around to automating it so that it generates new maps each day, makes all of the above changes, zips them up, and refreshes the catalog

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

Would not be 140 out of 1000 a bit much water provinces, as in perpetuality the water nations are doing much better than the land ones.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

Agreed Hadrian.

i think there should be no more than 8 water provinces per water race. Let the water races experience the dog pile this time around!

Actually, i would like the map to have so few water provinces that the water races are forced out of the water if they wish to survive. It is totally unfair imho that in the Big Game they can be at the tops in almost every category, but are pretty much immune to all the initial rush fighting and dog piles that the land races were subjected to.

I did suggest banning all items that produce gems in the Big Game, as it is going to be game deciding because of the map size-wait and see. I would prefer to see gem producing items banned in the next game. Any idiot can sit in the water and make clams. What skill is there in that?

I would rather see a winner crowned on his ability to win battles, not by out micromanaging the others.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

I tried to keep the "number of provinces per player" pretty much the same for water players and land players (within the bounds of my terrible math abilities). Of course there is the argument that some of the water players can come onto land, but some of the land players tend to grab some water also (undead users for example) so I figure it tends to even out fairly.

As for BattleSkill vs MicroManagment I always thought that the small-map blitzes were where the BS players automatically excelled and the big maps were the MM players time to shine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

There are 157 water provinces in Perp, so I'm looking for less. at 1000 provinces thats 16.1 provinces per player, so for water nations that equates to 17.5. provinces per water player. This will probably be lower as most maps have small lakes. I'd be fine with anything in the 125-140 range though.
140 is the max.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

This will not happen. Clams have a tradeoff as you are giving up resources that could be used immediately to conquer more provinces which could in turn give you more gems. With clams you are just doing another, safer, investment - but putting yourself in a weaker initial position by sacrificing gems.

The problem in these larger games is that the clams/hording is too good of an investment as you know the game will go on long enough for it to pay out nicely. Hence we will try tweaking the base cost so the payout is farther away. It might not be enough, but we'll see.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

Would "scattered water" be considered an advantage to the water nations? Or a drawback? It would make expansion much harder. And make it harder for one wter nation to quickly own up all of the water.

Or would be it better to group the water? Three lakes? or even just one ocean?

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

I'm fine with there being some random "lakes" but I would like at least 75% all of the water provinces to belong to larger bodies of water and those larger bodies connected. I think this will encourage water nations to fight amongst each other but the winner will be more secure.

I'm inclined to have multiple "linked" oceans so there are choke points, but if the mapped looked good enough I would go with one large ocean. In the same vein I'd like "continents" of large land masses for land choke points.

Check out some of my other (non-wrap around) maps for examples of what I'm looking for:

http://67.66.187.69/dominions3/afterthoughtsmall.jpg
http://67.66.187.69/dominions3/discordancesmall.jpg
http://67.66.187.69/dominions3/perpetualitysmall.jpg

Except for a few minor errors - I really like (if I do say so myself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ) the perpetuality map - so somthing like that, but wrap around would be great.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

Perhaps a left-right wraparound, like a tube. Polar seas in the north and in the south. Continents in the middle with some crossing points.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

I'd be willing to consider that, sure... though it doesn't completely fix the perceived problem of players on the edges having an advantage.

It does help address the biggest hesitation I have for complete wrap arounds - which is the difficulty players will have in planning moves around the visual edges. Imagine if your nation starts in the exact corner of the visual map with a complete (up/down left/right) wrap around map? Blah, it would be a total scroll mess. It suddenly becomes disadvantageous to start on the corners/edges.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

If the map is flagged right then the player will never notice he is on the edge. The game tiles the map and provides endless scrolling. As far as players are concerned, they all will think they "started in the middle" of the map

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

Oh well then, sounds much better now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

Yeah, what Gandalf said is correct. You can't even see the edges.

Jazzepi

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

The next change from the last game is that there will be an set end point (if not reached earlier).

I'm thinking the game will end at 125. People can keep playing if they'd like, but the score would be over.

Points would be an average of total provinces held over either the last 25 or 15 turns. In the unlikely event of a tie we will average in the previous turn before official scoring... and keep doing so until a winner is clear.

This would mean there would be a definitive end date for the game.

Say the game begins Oct 1st. Assuming we switch to 48 hour turns on turn 25 and 72 hour turns on turn 65 the game will go on for no longer than 285 days (approximately 9 months). More than likely this will end sometime before that (7-8 months?) due to quick hosts, or an outright win by the surrendering of the other players.

Discussion on the victory conditions, game length is welcome.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

I would prefer to just let the players playing decide if they want to continue. I don't see the advantage of a arbitrary victory condition.

Jazzepi

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

It's good to know as a player what turn you should head for, so to speak. It makes it easier to plan ahead, and give some merit to holding out the last few turns if you are dying http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Velusion

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

Wrong thread Velusion? Seems a bit premature.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

Heh - yep wrong thread.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

I'm working on a map generator, one that takes any existing image file and tries to make Dom3 map out of it. Wraparound can be enabled separately for both x nad y axis.

Would you be interested in a map made from Blue Marble NASA pictures? I'll attach a half size image so you can see what i mean.
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...6755-1half.png

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

I am not a fan of the wrap around. Sure it is an advantage to start in a corner-or is it? In my area of the map NW Corner the race in the corner(MA Caelum) was one of the 1st killed because other races wanted to be in the corner.

Typically races not in a corner will fight towards the corner or edge.

I think the race selection process is much more determinative of one's fate than a corner.

MA Ulm or EA Lanka-you decide.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

No arbitrary winning conditions. People that start out with more challenged races need more time to amass provinces than races like LA Ermor/EA Lanka/LA Ryleh etc.

To give the more balanced races a fighting chance to win, there cannot be a race to reach a certain number of provinces by a certain turn.

If players get bored after 9 months, they can resign or go ai.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

Personally Ive always liked multiple winning conditions for a game like this. The way that some other games allow. Something like

A) xxx number of Provinces
B) xx of Forts
C) xxxxx Income
D) xxxxx Gem Income
E) xxxxxx Research
F) xxxx Dominion
G) xxxxx Army Size
H) xx Victory Points
I) xx ownership of uniques
J) casting a particularly difficult to reach/hold global

Also maybe something like "no winner for the first 100 turns" and "must fill 4 of the above conditions".

I like that a game setting like that can open the door for many strategies including turtling, or rush-research. And making an unexpected grouping of lesser conditions to slip by others expectations.

Gandalf Parker

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

Strongly agree with Gandalf.

Multiple winning conditions would be nice for a game this big, where we can actually take our time and plan for the extremely long run http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif At least with the right peaceful neighbors.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

Szumo, that map editor looks awesome! You should make a thread on the maps/mods forum section.

Some kind of well defined victory conditions/turn limit sounds sensible to me. If it goes on too long people will drift away, and then its somewhat ruined for remaining players. To me the early turns of a game - 0-75 perhaps - are the most fun. 125 should be plenty. However, I won't be playing, so you should probably disregard this opinion!

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

I'm definitely not playing in a game like this.

Jazzepi

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

Yeah. Crap if we have a game like that then we can't have all the discussions and betting early about who will win. No one would be able to say ahead of time who is strong or not. Leave it just "my army can beat your army" until only one is left standing. So those with more experience will know where they rate. It doesn't matter if a game this big can never finish a game that way. Because that's the way the game is supposed to be played.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

Yeah, it would suck to have actual strategy in Dominions. Damn, who came up with that stupid idea.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

In a game that is basically ALL strategy, I'd have to agree with Wikd Thots.

Image a small nation with NAP's to all it's neighbors. It is free to spam forts, research, and cheap units. And if it played it's cards right it could win the race to the uniques.
All of a sudden a nobody non important nation just won the game.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

Velusion's own suggestion sounded very sensible to me.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

I've always looked at all those other attributes (army size, research, forts, etc...) as just tools to help you take over the world (ala provinces).

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

Perp has been such a blast I'd love to play in another of these games. Looking forward to see how it pans out once it is closer to finalization.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

That map looks awesome Szumo! Perfect for a mega game!

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

To me, I see different victory conditions as a way for players with different playstyles to be able to win it. If someone is turtling it out, people would have to stop him, too. It requires more monitoring and spying than a normal "get as many provinces as possible" game. Also, it gives a strong nation a chance to win by thinking in a new and creative way. It's like the different victory conditions in the Civilization games.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

Szumo - the map does look cool - but I'm looking for a randomly generated one with the types of lands spread out (imagine starting in the middle of the sahara)

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

I hope the new megagame will not have some arbitrary victory conditions or that it will end at an defined turn. As perpetuality is now beginning to get really interesting, and for example a research condition would be met long ago.

Also i dont think that players would attack people coming close to an research victory, just look like noone is doing something about ermor in perpetuality.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

whats a placeholder?

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

The game will only have provinces for victory conditions. The question is the time frame in turns before we call the game and the method of valuing the provinces (average how many turns? Just take the last turn?).

I'm 90% sure there is going to be some sort of turn limit. It isn't really feasible in this size game to expect a natural consensus winner in any reasonable time frame.

I'm pretty sure players in Perpetually will simply lose interest eventually as the micromanagement gets outrageous (I know I probably will). Having a turn in mind to shoot for gives players a light at the end of the tunnel and might pull in some players that have passed on Perp because they feel the end game will be never ending (and I tend to agree with them).

While I understand that placing an artifical turn limit might change the game a bit, if it is between that and the game never ending, I'll take the former. Also no one has made it clear to me WHY it's a bad thing. How does it really change the game so much? What will players be doing differently if the game ends on turn 125 and the victory condition is an average of the province count of the last 25 turns?

Also - I can leave the game up for as long players want to play. If people want to keep playing - they can feel free.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

Im more interested in how we will pick nations in this game =)

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

I'm debating having an auction where nations are bid on using population points from their capital if enough people are interested.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

You only get tired of long games if you micromanage. If you micromanage, you deserve the fate of boredom.

I will say 100 percent accurately, and Gandalf can verify it by looking at my turn file, I do not have any blood slave action going on, and have not made 1 gem producing item.

Yes, gandalf, I am truly a blitz player, specializing in winning battles, with little thought to the hammer i know that is coming in terms of game ending spells. I am relying on the micromanagers to cancel each other out.

If you micromanage-that is your problem. My turns in the Big Game do not take long, and they will never take too long.

So just because some do not have the stomach to finish a game, do not let punish the rest of us. If the rest get bored in the big game and forfeit to me, then i will wear my crown proudly, knowing a battle strategy specialist can beat micromanagers even on the big maps.

Btw Velusion, if you are bored start sending me your gems now. Despite being a blitz guy, i know what to do with gems!

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

What we should do is have everyone who wrote a guide play that nation. So I'd get Mictlan, Velusion would get LA Ermor, Evilhomer would get R'yleh, er....

Hmmm, I think that what we did last time worked out as intended. With one notable exception pretty much all the nations currently strongest in Perpetuality got no population bonus (were first round draft picks), so in hindsight it seems like that was a good idea to try and boost the less popular picks with more population. An auction sounds like fun, you could better shop for which nation was "cheapest" and undervalued in your opinion.

Re: Placeholder for new Megagame - Evermore
 

Micromanging is, however, required to be competitive in the large late games. Once a nation gets large enough a player who squeaks out every advantage out of their turn will do better than someone who breezes though and doesn't optimize. Unfortunately Dom3 pretty much insists that you micromanage your large empires to be competitive.