MA Man
 

Does anyone have any advice on how to play MA Man? With such low magic diversity it definitely feels like they need a rainbow pretender. Especially one that can forge air helms.

I was curious on other people's thoughts on scales, and unit use. I have a lot of trouble expanding consistently in the early game with them.

Jazzepi

Re: MA Man
 

Yes, make sure you have A4, don't rely on MA Caelum to trade you one, especially when I have played MA Man twice and been caught out with that one myself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

As a alternative you can put at least S4 on your pretender then you can forge starhine skullcap--->ring of sorcery--->ring of wizardry. This is more versatile, as it will boost other magic paths as well. You could even turn it into a bless with S9. The twist of fate + MR bonus is a good bless. Also S9 opens up spells like arcane nexus etc...

S9 with a fountain if available to Man, is very cheap in design points.

Re: MA Man
 

I was thinking of making a great sage with these scales. Tell me what you think.

Dom 4 or 5 (I can't remember)
F3
A4
W3
E3
S4
D3
N3

Order 3
Prod 3
Cold 1
Death 2
Misfortune 3
Magic 1

Re: MA Man
 

Oh man, you definitely wooped me in that game. I'm pretty sure you're going to win it. My noobness showed through. I did have wind guide and arrow fend ready. I thought we were going to have an archer war, but, uh, no not really. I went all scales in that game. Honestly, now that I've learned more, I've started to realize how conventional troops are just a means to an end. More than anything you *must* have a good magic late game if you want to stay in the game, having the best scales and the worst magic is an awful idea.

Jazzepi

Re: MA Man
 

Bards. Do not forget bards. Very hard to catch, and shut down capital and income lands in one-two turns.

And "Never play without Air magic level four" is words to live by.

Re: MA Man
 

>And "Never play without Air magic level four" is words to >live by.

ARE words to live by http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Jazzepi

Re: MA Man
 

Nah...Ma Ctis Amhazair will win it. He is in a different (superior) league to me. Shame he does not share his ideas more on the forum. But then many of the best players keep there thoughts to themselves.

Use a pretender design thats good for you, which you will enjoy playing. Like I said I played MA Man twice and well I had good games both times, ultimately I lost with one and the other resulted in a draw.

Your pretender is excellent for site searching and the mid to late game.

I personally hate taking death scale, I only take death scale on the Ashen Empire or suchlike.

Re: MA Man
 

Actually, I forgot about the crone's old age problem. Do you recruit a lot of them? They seem like good combat mages, if they weren't so... fragile, and extremely expensive.

I could do...

Order 3
Prod 2
Cold 2
Death 0
Misfortune 3
Magic 1

Jazzepi

Re: MA Man
 

The main thing I was looking for is a good analysis of the units. I can't really figure out which ones I should be building to expand with early. The knights are very nice, but too expensive to build early, and a lot of the meele feel underwhelming for their expense. I was messing around with the spearmen who are furtherest to the left in the production que.

Jazzepi

Re: MA Man
 

Longbowmen?

Re: MA Man
 

Obviously longbowmen are nice, but I'm talking about early expansion.

Jazzepi

Re: MA Man
 

I used longbowmen protected by a screen of knights for fairly rapid early expansion. Wind guide + Flaming arrows (if you can get it), for the mid game.

In my capital I recruited crones whenever possible.

Other castles, bards, bards and more bards. However the mother, N2 A1 is good when you get storm of thorns. 5 bards + locust swarms to shut down enemy castles...permanently. The mothers can stealthy raid.

Re: MA Man
 

Longbowmen ARE early expansion. Crank out as many as you can shieled by your starting infantry and you shouldnt have trouble dealing with anything less armoured than a knight http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: MA Man
 

Okay, but on the first few turns I'm a little confused on what to recruit. Do you just build 2 knights? And how many long bowmen do you bring to a normal neutral expansion fight?


Jazzepi

Re: MA Man
 

I build one spearman for every nine longbowmen in the very early game. When I
decide that need the cash for something else, and thus stop running out of
resources, I replace the spearmen with tower guards. I will not really recruit
heavy cavalry until I know who my first victim will be, and of course, heavy
cavalry is not necessarily good against everyone.

Bards are so damn effective that if Man was otherwise balanced, I would call them
an exploit. Unfortunately, Man is a rather limited race, and thus they need the
bards to survive. In MP games, there are a few things you really must do as Man:

1. Get a pretender with Air 4, and Nature 4. This is not a suggestion, it's a
must, period. Fire 1, Death 3 and Earth 4 are also very good to have. If you
dare, go with a rainbow pretender. Survive the first year, and you'll do fine.

2. Get a good, firm ally, who can help your pathetically limited magic. Go to war
on his side, as early as possible. Cripple the target with your bards. Start them
on the enemy capital as soon as you dare.

3. Try hard for the Air Queens and Treelords. Get as many Fairy Queens as you can.

4. Mass archers, use flaming arrows, spam lightning. Know these will stop working.

Re: MA Man
 

Thanks Tuidjy. What is your normal late game strategy?

And why do you feel you need N4 on a pretender when you can build a thistle mace and the +1 nature bracelet?

Jazzepi

Re: MA Man
 

> And why do you feel you need N4 on a pretender when you can build a thistle
> mace and the +1 nature bracelet?

The attached file is an non-staged shot of one of my current games, and these are
the actual wizards that are leading the assault of an enemy's capital. Notice
something sad?

When your really good mages are old, they will pick up afflictions, and sometimes
diseases. A disease means that in six months, one of your most valuable mages,
maybe the guy around whom your whole tactics revolve, will be dead. Note that in
that game I have a growth domain. It helps, but not enough.

Yes, there is the Chalice, and Gift of Health, but you cannot rely on that. Two
things available to everyone are Rings of Regeneration and Hydra Skin Armours,
and I'll admit Man is quite well prepared to forge these. But a Shroud of the
Battle Saint is much cheaper (5S vs 10N and 3S vs 7N quite soon) and if you have
at least Nature 4, it will convey regeneration. In addition, when your army is
in the field, rush shipping rings of regenerations to the front is quite hard.
But bless at the beginning of a battle will still see your mages healed up to
their max. And finally, MA Man has some heavily armoured sacred troops. They
have OK hit points, and can survive a few good blows. With regeneration, they
will pick up fewer wounds, and survive much longer.

-----------------

As for late game strategies, Man is limited. Basically, it's whatever your God
and the Treelords bring to the nation. With a good start, it can be enough.

Re: MA Man
 

I'm a little confused. Are you saying that since the crones are sacred, you can bless them during battle, and that will allow them to regen life lost to the diseased affliciton?

Jazzepi

Re: MA Man
 

The crones are old, and sacred. When they get diseases, and they will, they stop
healing after battle, start losing one hit point per turn (sometimes two) and will
eventually die. But when they are blessed in battle, Nature 4 on the pretender
gives them regeneration, and they will heal the hit points. If you give them a
shroud, they will be always blessed, and will thus always have regeneration, and
will stop losing hit points every turn. They will still need to enter battle
to heal the hit points lost before they got the shroud.

Oh, and I nearly forgot. The shroud will work on non-sacred as well. You can
use it to keep anyone alive, not just sacred commanders. But you still need to
have Nature 4 on your pretender. Hell, since old age made its appearance, I have
not played a game without a growth domain and Nature 4. Well, Arcoscephale may
do well without it, but their sacred still benefit a lot from the blessing.

And it's cheap! What's there not to like?

Re: MA Man
 

Do they still accumulate extra afflictions once you put the regen item on them?

Jazzepi

Re: MA Man
 

Much less often. But yes, they do. Mostly in late winter. I think it is a
feature making that one winter month twice as bad as any other. Sometimes they
will even lose a hit point that month, despite regeneration. Use a battle to heal
them. Sometimes I cast a special monster attack spell on my own damn province just
to get a heal for my poor, decrepit patients... I mean my allmighty wizards.

Re: MA Man
 

Tuidjy, nurse maid of MA Man.

Jazzepi

Re: MA Man
 

My leaders with old age have always gotten their afflictions in midwinter, and (excluding other causes, like already-diseased, battle-wounds, venom-charmed, etc) never have gained afflictions any other month.

There have been times I have (stupidly) recruited an old-age commander early winter, and have him get diseased one turn later.

I'm reasonably certain it's not that it's double-probability, but that Midwinter is the *only* time old age is the direct cause of afflictions.

Re: MA Man
 

> Tuidjy, nurse maid of MA Man

Actually, head geriatrician of Pythium, thank you very much. MA Man's is the
capital these octagenerians are besieging.

> I'm reasonably certain it's not that it's double-probability, but that Midwinter
> is the *only* time old age is the direct cause of afflictions.

Yes, that is correct. What I meant is that Midwinter is the time where already
diseased, old people seem to take an take an extra point of damage. One that
regeneration sometimes fails to negate. And more critically, when that extra
point kills, immortality and twice born seems to fail.

Re: MA Man
 

Yep, it's correct that people lose 2hp in a single month in winter, I read that somewhere before. Also IIRC if an immortal dies from disease in this month it dies permanently, which is a bug obviously.

Re: MA Man
 

I'm actually impressed by the depth of analysis and so forth that went into that. I should note, though, that boosting the nature magic of a crone de-oldifies (not a word) them. Als, they can self-heal in battles via regen spell anyway. Finally, late game you are definately going to have a faerie queen, which has Heal Troops.

Re: MA Man
 

In two weeks reading this board I have learnt more that from last six months playing the game. Even from the same people I play with. Now I know why all of Petar's Gods look same.

Re: MA Man
 

Tuidjy, I love unrest-causing units myself. However, why do you think that Bards are so much better than, say, spies? Bards may have a better stealth, but they're so much more expensive to recruit that I think spies are better for this purpose.

Not that I'm saying you're wrong. I was just wondering what your reasoning was. Are Bards better at causing unrest, or does that extra stealth mean that they are never caught, maybe?

Re: MA Man
 

Bards are better than spies in a few small, but significant ways.

The extra stealth is very useful. How useful? In a game I am currently in, four
bards had shut down my capital. I had province defense of 25, a Call of the Wild,
a Call of the Wind, and a Watcher (50 men worth) patrolling, and it took me at
least three turns to catch them all. Before I summoned the Watcher, I did not
manage to catch even one. High stealth becomes silly. In that game, I was
brought from a surplus of 1500 gold to less than 200 in two turns.

The Bard is also a researcher, thus you can, and will mass them for other purposes.

The Bard is not helpless in combat. He has a number of songs that can be
useful, and the old favorite of "Eagle Eyes, Vine Arrow x 4, cast spells" is
there too. The combat AI is also smart enough to start using the Soothing
song when fatigue start running high.

And finally the bard can lead men. A bard, a monk, 15 stealth archers and
only a few wardens with protection are a hell of a raiding group. The archers
have to be found as indies, but even if you are not lucky in that respect,
wardens with Protection from the bard and the standard E4, N4 blessing will
do just fine.

Re: MA Man
 

It seems like you could mass about 20 bards in the same square or so on the map, and just have them spam soothing song + vine arrows.

Jazzepi

Re: MA Man
 

Yeah soothing song is great!

I see what you're saying, Tuidjy. Bards are indeed an excellent unit. But, the fact that they are researchers, to me, is sort of a negative. I mean, I guess I like specialized units. I want my researchers to research and my unrest-causers to cause unrest. I don't want to be at a point in the game where I have to sacrifice research in order to cause unrest, or decide not to cause unrest in order to research a particular spell that I need.

The extra stealth that you mention does sound pretty awesome, though. And admittedly, this does mean that it is difficult to mass spies in a sense -- when you build a spy you have to not build a mage, whereas with bards you don't have to make that choice.

What do bards cost, like 100 or 110? It's a matter of opinion, I suppose, but in my book I like an 80 gold researcher and a 30 gold spy just as well if not better than a 110-gold researcher/spy. But there is a trade-off both ways.

Re: MA Man
 

You can have your 80 gold researcher and your 30 gold spy. I'll keep my 75 gold
bard, thank you very much ;-)

And I guess it is a personal preference, but I love to bring my researchers to
the battlefield when they are needed. That's why I love Pythium acolytes and
Ulm Reborn's librarians. Give them a Banner of the North Star (or whatever that
wonderful standard is called) or a leader who can cast Light of the North star,
and your humble researchers deliver a deluge of mind blasts, or paralyze a SC
before he can cast his first buff.

Re: MA Man
 

Woah! They're only 75 gold? I didn't realize that.. They are incredible, then.

Re: MA Man
 

They also have standard, which can be helpful in some cases.