Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

Hello all,

Short time lurker here and I figured it was time to start trying to learn something about this fantastic game for real.

For starters I should say 3 friends and I have purchased and we've been mostly playing games vs. the computer. I've about 30 games under my belt and 10,000 questions. However, I’ll limit myself to only 1 for the moment.

When making a pretender I have a high level strategy question. The ones like the Ghost king and Wrym I get, they are going to be on the front lines of battle killing things. The chassis like the Old Crone and the Sage I understand, they're cheap. They won't be on the battlefield if you can help it.

It's ALL the middle ones I don't understand. Take say the Father of the son or mother of serpents. Both cost around 100 and yet I don't see them really as viable SC's..or am I missing something? Seems to me that if you want to SC you really have to have astral (for the alterations) and you can't go much better than the worms regen as well...so why does anyone choose the pretenders of the other Titans.

It's driving me nuts..I’m SURE there is a lot I'm missing but if someone could lay out the logic I’d appreciate it.

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

Well, one thing that you've got to realize about is a lot of Dominions design decisions seem to have been made for thematic/coolness reasons rather than balance. There are certainly many things in there that are not necessarily the most cost effective way to do things but can still be fun anyway because they make you play a different way, or just for role playing reasons. That being said, pretty much any of the large size pretenders with good hit points can make pretty good SCs if you design them with that in mind. For instance, with a little research depending on your magic paths you can cast invulnerability, personal luck, body ethereal, personal regeneration, quicken self, breath of winter, mistform, fire shield, etc. You can also get awe on any pretender by taking a high enough dominion score, and if you're in your own high dominion one of those titan pretenders will have several hundred hit points so if you stick a couple decent magic items on them they can be quite formidable. Additionally, a lot of them have little "flavor" (such as creating magic gems or preventing bad events) and some of them can be quite useful such as curing afflictions.

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

alright thanks for the Baalz. I must say I'm enjoying the game a ton but even after 30 games I feel like I'm swiming in darkness.

Any sage words of advice about where to start when I want to become "serious" about the game?

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

Those middle pretenders can all make good SC if you equip them (plenty of hp, the equipment can take care of the rest). They can usually give a decent bless (if their starting path match what you are looking for). And even without the bless, their good starting path mean you can easily boost them to where they'll cast the later game powerful spells. Particularly if you are planning to cast powerful battlefield spells, they won't die to a lucky arrow or an assassin.

I think they are a sort of compromise : you can get a better bless (usually) with a cheaper chassis, and there are better SC chassis and artillery chassis, but if you want a bless AND a SC, look for a titan.

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

The IRC channel(check the sticky) is a great place to start. There are usually atleast a few active people and if there aren't then check later. Alot of them will be willing to help you get to grips with the game or atleast answer questions you have.
Of course, if you want a challenge or just a crash course in dominions you could always go there and join a blitz http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

IRC huh? nicely old school for a nice old school game.

I'll try to pop in later to check it out.

Can i shoot one other question at you guys? There are a lot of battlefield spells that are close range..do these ever get used? I've tried but mostly my mages become toast when I try so I've stuck to the long range ones like blade wind.

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

Generally the long-ranged spells are mostly used but the shorter ranged spells have their uses. Either as unscripted self defence, dealing with assasins, or using their generally high damage(for research level) to take out alot of enemies fairly early on(I like EA caelian eagle kings with a bit of a bless to buff, fly in and cast shockwave for example).

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

They're the middle ground really. Having an SC pretender can be useful in the early game, but by the late game they're either surpassed or so crippled they're useless. The Crone and the like are useful for a more supportive magic role, but can be picked off by basic assassins, magical attacks (especially those which force a combat) or even being caught in an invasion of a province.
The mid-range SC's are a kind of compromise - they can't fight as well as the Wyrm, but they're skilled enough to see off an assassination attempt or survive the odd attack that would kill an Archmage. At the same time, you can usually afford to give them a couple of magical skills to keep them useful in the mid to late game, even if it's just as a summoning or item factory.
Some also suit particular strategies on the battlefield. For example, a titan with a poison cloud who is immune to poison themselves can be used alongside Pythium's Hydra's without worrying about being poisoned by their clouds. Take the correct spells and you can literally turn the battlefield itself into a weapon against your opponents.

You're already doing it. Just keep playing and experimenting and figure out what works and what doesn't. One of the things you find about dominions is that successful strategies depend as much upon your own playstyle as they do on the actual game itself.
You could also try some multiplayer games with those three friends you mentioned. If you're all beginners, you'll be able to learn a lot from seeing how each other play, including combinations and strategies which may not have occurred to you.

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

Some of those middle-ground pretenders make good battle-mages. Someone who can "attack" for one round, and then cast close-area spells. They can survive long enough with enough magic to be battlefield useful. Such as, one of the dragons.

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

Check out the Strategy Index sticky to for some insightful write ups that people have done about different facets of the game, nations in particular. It's a whole lot of information there, but a good place to start might be to pick a nation that you like and play around with some of the different suggestions written in the relevant strategy guide. It kinda gets you in the head of somebody with more experience playing that nation and limits the scope a bit while you're trying to get your bearings.

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

I find that the extremes of the pretender design are a good way to start. Finding a good middling pretender requires a lot more finesse with the scales and a better understanding of castable magics and forgable items.

Going with an awake wurm pretender with dom 10 and good scales is a pretty easy way to start.

Jazzepi

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

Many the monstrous SC pretenders do very well in the early game, but lack the equipment slots to be true late-game SCs.
Once you've got at least Construction 6 and the gems and paths, I'd bet on the Father of the Sun against a Wyrm any day.

And the undead SCs, like the Ghost King, have their own weaknesses, which are hard to compensate for, once your opponents have the research to target those weaknesses.

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

This is actually an extremely good question, and the answer for most of them is that no, they don't have niche in the base game. The main exception being blesses, sometimes the most convienent sets of paths for an imprisoned bless pretender is an otherwise useless titan.

In theory, titans have advantage over the more 'monster' pretender becuase they have more item slots later. However, in practice there are a couple pretender that fit both the niche of 'monsters' and have all the needed slots, mainly the Prince of Death and Cyclops.

While it's certainly possible to make an SC out of vitually anything provided they have a good number of HP and item slots, low protection value titans just can't compete economically in this area, and many don't have another area of usefulness. There are plety of ways to make SCs without astral though, the high dominion for awe that's been mentioned is popular.

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

If you'd like, I can organize a newbies-only game for you and your friends. I joined two of those myself when Llamabeast created them, and I made several horrid mistakes, and learned quite a bit.

I'm hardly a champion player, but at least I've made all the basic mistakes (such as mistakes regarding my gem usage) that I can. Now I've reached the stage where I'll be defeated by my flawed strategy, not a misunderstanding of the way things work.

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

Id go more with many of them being themed rather than no niche in the game. Possibly they could be said to have no niche for choosing them in a multiplayer game against other human players. In that case the extremes will always tend to be chosen.

But in solo games, or for RPG style of playing, the others can be good. I just personally hate things like the themed gods having themed choices that are paid for in pretender-points even when then nation already has it covered. For example, a pretender for a nature-magic nation tends to be also nature-magic and/or get bonuses in food supplies for armies. Since the nation has a bunch of nature mages, that benefit isnt worth paying the pretender points that put it on the pretender.

I understand them being there and fitting the theme of their nation, but its regrettable.

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

Well, Gandalf, it is regrettable, but occasionally quite useful. Middle Era Agartha can benefit greatly from an e6 pretender if you take magic 1 (or higher) and no misfortune burns down your lab. In that case its all about getting "Earth Blood Deep Well" up ASAP, and hoping you won't have to face one of the counters. Nations with air and astral magic can devastate a golem army, but hopefully you can get it up before the counters are a threat. On the other hand, even 5 attentive statues can devastate an entire wolf tribe province.

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

The "middle" gods are for when you need a god who can survive a late-game battle and/or ritual casting. Let me explain:

The middle gods tend to be for very specific builds, like a person that only wants 1-2 colors on a god and have them be very big for specific spell purposes (like casting Wish or Utterdark) or blesses.

So you use them like this:

In a late game battle, some fights really are decided by "destroying the battlefield". For example, someone might cast Foul Vapors or Astral Tempest, and generally in those situations everyone the field (both friend and foe) dies. The smart player does this to kill a few of his mages and troops, and a lot of his enemies. If your god gets killed in one of those, you feel pretty dumb.

Assassination or damaging ritual spells can also easily kill a weak god, so blowing some extra design points to prevent a god death (and a permanent loss to all colors of magic) from something like Fires From the Sky or Earth Attack is very cost effective.

Some of those gods also have weird extra powers. The Frost Father, for example, has a very large Chill effect, making him almost like a battlefield enchantment.

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

PoD is weak to undead slaying weapons/spells (a couple sauromancers on eagle eyes, dust to dust x4 can really ruin his day, to say nothing of thugs with herald lances or flambeaux) and IIRC has fewer HP than the titans. Cyclops is weak to Vision's Foe, eye shields and assassins with magical eyes (and sometimes poison, since as an earth mage he is likely to cast invulnerability whether it is scripted for him or not). Since they're fairly commonly used these counters are well known and people will start preparing them as soon as a scout spots your god (maybe even before, if they guess based on pretender titles).

Many of the titans also have unique special abilities (Lord of the Night comes to mind).

I disagree about the "redundant" pretender abilities, though. You can't have too many supplies, especially when you're invading the Ashen Empire. Also, strong pretender magic (ie 6+) in a path your nation has level 2 or 3 mages in can be very useful indeed, IMO; especially if it's a hard-to-boost path. I find a pretender whose paths match the nation's more useful in general; you don't have to alchemize for gems to power your big rituals, or struggle to accumulate enough boosters/empowerment on a mage who started at only level 3.

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

I second QM's opinion. Yah, they can be made decent - but there is almost always a better choice.

For most nations you can outright discard about half of all the pretender chassis' if you are playing in a competitive game, regardless of the strategy you plan on using.

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

Both PoD and Cyclops have plenty of built in abilities to compensate for these minor weaknesses. Just for starters, they each get an elemental resist that your basic titan would lack. I have yet to ever see the single eye on a cyclops specifically made use of by an enemy player (most of those counters if they worked well would work almost as well vs something with 2 eyes), and the fewer HP on PoD is extremely minor compared to the fact that it has 0 enc, built in armor, fear +10, and flying. Actually the defining characteristic of both the PoD and Cylops that make them usable as awake gods as opposed to all the normal titans, is the combo of starting armor and fear. With that and a good number of HPs, all they need is awe from dominion and they are good to go.

Compare that to your typical titan, you have to wait at the very least for some kind of armor (either a buff or item), then it's still quite risky unless you manage to get them fear or a damage shield. And even then, chances are they are a cyclops or PoD would still have the abilities and stats advantage.

Ritual casting gods is a potential niche, but one that in practice tends to be extremely small. Spells powerful and useful to need them tend to take so long to get to you can easily get the boosters items need to reach them by then.

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

Although I am no fan of arguments based upon appeal to authority, I may make an exception for QM. He simply knows the game *that* well from a balance perspective. But then it's not necessary to simply trust his assertions since he always backs them up.

Oh, and he used to crush me with very unpleasant regularity back when I hung out on IRC.

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

I find that titans with air can be very devastating in mid game. Once you have wrathful skies you may drop it on an army having the right resistances and that army is history. You can do this long before your opponent have anything to counter your 200-300 hp god.

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

In Alpaca Digress had a Frost Father which turned out to be the most powerful SC I've ever seen (which took me by surprise since I was never very scared of titans). Unfortunately I can't remember the details, although I do remember it had a cold aura of 40(!).

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

Frost Father? He only got 10 hp. in dominion 10 that becomes 30, but still he should easily be taken out by lots of things.

Perhaps you meant a Father of Winter.

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

Yes the poor fella was the Father of Winter ... was countered in the end (oh for a couple of mammoths http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif).

The biggest problem being big is being big - your opponent can always script "attack large monsters" and your poor pretender gets a right shellacking.

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

Cold aura caps out at 24, I think. Stack a Niefel Jarl with enough cold-enhancing items and other stuff (Rime Hauberk, Breath of Winter, cold scale 3) and he stops getting any increases at 24. He'll actually ignore the scripted Breath of Winter because it won't add anything.

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

Ahhh, one more mystery solved. "why is BoW ignored *sometimes*?"

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

I'm playing the EA giants race, whose name I will not even attempt to spell correctly, and I have a giant with a chill of 25 there after casting breath of winter.

I would suspect that there is not a cap. Instead I think that what Edi was trying to do was akin to wearing an item that enchants the wearer with Breath of Winter, and then trying to cast it on the same unit, which is why they ignored it. I want to say that the Father of Winter that Lazy Perfectionist had attained higher than 25 cold aura, but I can't be sure.

Jazzepi

Re: Well...talk about an intimidating game!
 

I don't know, a 9/4 titan has use in multiplayer, of any calibre. I think people underestimate the power of being able to quickly cast powerful globals naturally, without booster items.

Sure, eventually, everyone has +3 or so boosters, and empowerment, ect. But can you throw up a powerful global at turn 30?

SCs are extemely powerful but not invincible. I easily killed in a multi game, in two rounds, a classic flying Wraith Lord with Soul Vortex, simply by shooting him with a bunch of Tien Chi's Demons of Heavenly Fire, and during a seige and not it just attacking on it's own. OTOH, i was smashed terribly by a Fire King's flame spell attacks later on, and not by a melee SC.

The real key is early expansion for the early SCs, but take the right 9-bless, and right scales, and you can do it with national troops just as easily.

I like themed pretenders because i can cast powerful spells like Gift of Nature's bounty, spells like that which are nearly impossible to cast without a Pretender unless you spend hundreds of gems empowering and with + items. A 9-Death Pretender becomes a massive Ghost factory, for example. To me taking a themed Pretender is a "force multiplier", that lets me push my natural gem path quickly to it's apogee. And compared to Dom2, even "off paths" like nature are much more viable overall with the changes to aging, supplies, ect.

It's alot like the early level summons; sure, if you wait 15-20 turns the gems you spend on stuff like Ice Drakes seem like they've been totally wasted. BUT, if those Ice Drakes help you capture an enemy capital or defend against a massive rush army, they're worth their weight on gold. And, if you can summon ten of them in one turn, instead of pushing them out one at a time, they make excellent choices to create in desperate situations, if easily summonable by national troops.