Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

I have noticed recently that the spell Mists of Deception does not end when all of the opposing side has been either killed or has fled. Apparently it counts the little "mist creatures" as reason to continue producing them indefinitely.

In the same way that Wrathful Skies, for example, stops when all of the side which cast it has fled, so should Mists of Deception -- the mist creatures it produces notwithstanding. To me, this seems like an exploitive bug that needs to be fixed.

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

I'd guess this is same bug as with the "battlefield enchantments stay after caster has fled" bug - i.e. enchantment should disappear the moment the mage that cast it dies or leaves the field but does not.

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

Personally, I think it seems rather thematic. Mage casts a spell, and then the army fades away to let the enemy flounder about in those very deceptive mists.

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

Except that the attacker always loses when hitting the turn limit. This is the exploit I think he's talking about.

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

I will admit it is thematic, but it's still very exploitive. It's true, like Morkilus says, that the attacker always loses after 50 turns, and it's exploitive for that reason, but also when combined with Wrathful Skies or something similiar, it's just rediculous.

The situation I am whining about is this: I was seiging a castle with a powerful army that unfortunately didn't have any capable fliers in a storm. A weakness, I will admit. Anyway, the enemy pops in an Air Queen with a staff of storms who casts Mists of Deception, Wrathful Skies, and then retreats.

My army would have to be able to kill several etherial units popping up at random on opposite sides of the battlefield in a single combat round in order to get out of this deathtrap -- a basically impossible task in the mist/storm. My army was obliterated with no risk to the opposing player-- he didn't even have any units on the battlefield!

I should be able to deal with etherial units popping up at random. I should be able to deal with lightning strikes hitting my guys -- sure. If I can't deal with that, it's my problem. But, the fact that he didn't even have anything on the battlefield for 47 combat rounds of lightning hitting me is just out of control. And after those 47 rounds, I would be forced to retreat.

The tactic of Wrathful Skies and casting summoning spells (like living clouds) I have no problem with -- at least there are actual enemy units on the battlefield while the lightning hits me. In the case of Mists of Deception, it was an enchantment supporting the existence of another enchantment (wrathful skies) that did the killing.

While clever and viciously evil (which I consider a good thing), I believe this tactic crosses the line enough to be considered an exploit.

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

Dude, that's a pure exploit. The battle shouldn't continue if there's no-one actually fighting in the other side.

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

I have had wrathful skies used against me, with the mage that cast it retreating afterward, but with storm up and enough chaff that my my army suffered big damage before it finished off the chaff.

I agree that battlefield enchantments should end when mage is killed or he retreats.

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

This is very serious exploit, I think. And so is cast Wrathful Skies and retreat, while a super fighter stays on the battlefield. But in latter case, at least there is SOMEONE.

Two things can help, I hope we see at least one in next patch.

1. No commanders, automatic rout. Give Vengeance of the Dead a commander if that's a problem.

2. Mage leaves battlefield (dead or flown), battlefield wide spell ends.

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

The battlefield enchantments staying up after the caster retreats is a red-flagged issue that's been on the shortlist for quite a while. I'll add Mists of Deception as a spell bug.

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

It also applies to artifacts edi.

In the Big Game the same race that used the wrathful skies retreat on me, has also used this tactic:

mage has forbidden light. The solar brilliance stays up the entire battle, even though the mage that has it casts returning and is gone after one round. A blind pretender(monolith) or chaff on battlefield, and the good army is blinded before it kills off the chaff.

If the forbidden light leaves the battle, solar brilliance should also leave.

BTW, I am not calling the users of these tactics exploiters. What I am saying is the result should not obtain.

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

It's the same issue.

Whether an enchantment is autocast by an artifact (Heat from Hell (Unquenched Sword), Solar Brilliance (Forbidden Light), Will of the Fates (Aurgelmer's Sword) or a regular item (Banner of the Northern Star) or a mage or the autocast being the property of a certain monster (Darkness for Mandaha etc), this bug tends to manifest the same way, i.e. enchantment stays in effect even if source leaves battlefield.

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

I don't think this is a bug, but a feature.

At that level of play, if all spells dropped when the caster left then you'd rarely see a use for battlefield enchantments like this. This level of play is so deadly that most battlefield spells rarely are as effective as just having one mage casting blasting spells, so nerfing them further would be to nerf them out of play.

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

It's only a question of keeping a mage alive. There's no way to target the one mage who cast a battlefield spell, so it wouldn't be any more dangerous than having that mage cast blasting spells. Their effects end if a mage dies, but if he doesn't, they can be used to great effect, while blast spells provide quick results, but usually affect much fewer enemies at a time.

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

It just so happens that we have Kristoffer on record being surprised that battlefield enchantments did not end when the caster left the battle and saying this should not happen, so it's a confirmed major bug.

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

If you can end a global by killing the caster, you should be able to end a battlefield enchantment the same way, IMO (and for item-autocast spells, by killing the item's wielder). Retreating is a bit more of a grey area, but because of this type of exploit, I think it's better to not allow battlefield enchantments by a retreater to stay in effect. (Call Horror x4, Returning is still ok though - once they get rid of the horrors the battle will end.)

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

And Kris O. is also famous for saying that he doesn't know every feature of the game unless he goes back and looks at the source code.... and thats not surprising, considering that he's the content developer and the other guy does most or all of the programming.

But back to the discussion:

Killing one mage is really easy in the late game. You send in a few high HP mages to cast battle field-destroying magics, and the anyone with merely human mages loses (which is the vast majority of nations).

At least if the spells don't leave the battlefield, then everyone tends to die (meaning that its a costly tactic for attacker and defender).

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

This whole discussion comes as news to me. Casting battlefield enchants and running away is a relatively common tactic in MP games... I've used it many times and had it used against me.

Because the spells function the way they are described (they say the caster has to die to cancel the spell) I'm not sure why people assumed this was a bug in the first place...

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

The concern, if I've read it right, is that mist of deceptions continues to stay around even after all the mages are gone AND enemy army. So you can string Mist of Deceptions + any battlefield wide nuker/disabler together ridiculous army crippling combos.

For example.

You could teleport in a mage with a staff of storms cast mist of deception, teleport him out with returning, while another mage teleports in at the same time with the solar brilliance item and casts returning as well. Until the 50 turn limit comes up, and your enemy's units route, they're forced to run around the battlefield attacking the Mist of Deceptions units. While this is happening, the secondary enchantment is devastating their entire army.

So basically you've turned two mages into an unstoppable army killing machine. The staff of storms prevents anyone from flying to their location, so the only way you're going to kill them is if it you have a bunch of guys set to slay soul near the front of your army.

To me, this is an exploit. These battlefield wide enchantments are clearly suppose to be balanced by two things.

1. They go away when the caster dies, which implies 2.
2. You have to have a big enough army to sit around and die while the other army is riddled with afflictions/dies to the enchantment.

Since you're eliminating both of the drawbacks by abusing the way the battles end, and actually making them better with the returning (the casters can do this strategy EVERY TURN as they're returned to a province with a lab), I'd definitely call it an exploit.

Jazzepi

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

There is going to be a problem enforcing this in MP play though if we actually consider this an exploit. So now are we saying you can't script retreat/return and use any sort of battle field wide spell??? Our only options are to commit our mages completely to the battle if we cast em?

P.S. In your example I didn't think you could teleport into on ongoing battle.

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

Perhaps just ban mists of deception until this issue is resolved.

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

Mists of Deception is a specific, exceptional problem because it constantly generates units, which prevents the battle from ever ending, even in the absence of any real troops. You can force an opponent into the long-battle auto-rout even after every single one of your troops has died or fled.

More in the realm of opnion, though, I'd say that yes: you should have to commit your mage to the battle if you want that mage's powers to exist on the battlefield. Even if "battlefield enchantments stay through mage retreat" isn't a bug, though, this usage of Mists of Deception smacks of exploit. The spell is self-perpetuating! It only stays in effect because of the creatures it itself summons!

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

As far as I am concerned, casting a battlefield enchantment and retreating is not
an exploit if you leave someone to fight. If the only thing you leave is the
creatures generated by Mists of Deception, it does feel like an exploit. I will
not use that particular combo in my games... but I am not sure how upset I would
be with someone who uses it on me.

By the way, aren't there other enchantments like this? Maybe less hard to get
rid of, but wasn't there something that summons wolves, sharks, etc..?

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

Yeah, School of Sharks (or is it Shark Attack?) would be the same thing for underwater I believe..

I agree that as long as you leave someone behind to fight, it is legitimate to cast battlefield enchantments and then returning. Although I wouldn't mind one bit if this "bug" were fixed in the next patch, in fact I'd prefer it that way. But as things stand, it should be allowed.

The Mists of Deception thing was just out of control though.. I agree it would be hard to police, and maybe it shouldn't be, either. The host would need to state that Mists of Deception is banned ahead of time, or I can understand why people might think it was allowed. And even that spell is perfectly fine in most cases.

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

I don't know this for 100% certain, but I think Shark Attack works differently- the sharks only come when units get wounded, mainly. If there's no battle going on, they'll stop coming.

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

But as long as the sharks are there, units keep getting wounded. It is self reinforcing. Takes a while to get going, so you'd need some fodder to start with.
I'm not sure how it would last once the regular forces are gone.

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

Yeah, outside of mists of deception combo it seems
1) Like a valid tactic
2) Impossible to even tell for sure if the mage retreated on purpose
3) Considering it an exploit would make things like the horror harmonica completely unusable. To a lesser degree lots of stuff is much harder to use if you have to commit to *never* withdrawing the caster.
4) Not obvious - you can't expect everyone in a MP game to have read this thread. Most everyone does this now and it doesn't seem exploitive, people are going to continue to do it because they don't consider it an exploit.

So, IMHO, good thing to fix as a bug but outside of mists of deception combo a valid tactic.

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

It is not really open to debate. If the developer says it is a major bug and is on the short list to be fixed-it is a major bug.

While you may agree or disagree with whether or not it SHOULD be fixed, I do not think you can argue that it is not a bug when the developers say it is.

As an aside, what is so wrong with sacrificing a mage to take out an enemy army? Sure you lose the mage, but if he kills more than the cost of the mage, the battlefield spells are still worth it.

In one of my mp games I use mages to cast foul vapors and left them on the field of battle until they died. It is still worth it when you cripple a big army and only lose a few mages.

People wanting to kill a whole army and not even risk the mage casting the spell seems like a bit much.

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

You're right, it's not open to debate. I'm just saying getting pissed at people who do it is only going to result in high blood pressure until a change is made by the developers. Trying to "ban" it for MP is futile.

Re: Mists of Deception -- exploit??
 

Everything's open to debate, though, isn't it? There's plenty of stuff that works as designed that we try to get the devs to change on these boards.

There's no harm in trying to convince them not to fix it if you feel strongly about it.