Most powerful nation
 

I'm just curious what nation (in all ages) that people consider to be most powerful. Consider the overall picture just not their early potential. Granted that different nations shine in different situations - but consider a rather large, somewhat balanced map with all nations present (something like perpetuality, but less water provinces perhaps). My top three vote is as follows:

1. Lanka
Good sacreds, can reanimate, cheap blood hunters, strong mages and excellent blood summons. I cannot find any real weakness in this nation so they would be my vote for most powerful (unbalanced nation).

2. LA Rlyeh
Rather safe start in the early game due to water start. They will start to really shine when they reach high level magics. They also can clam and get freespawns. They have a few annoying feutures, like the insanity that hits most of your commanders, but overall I would place them second.

3. LA miclan
Great sacreds, best blood nation (blood is very potent if you know how to use it), good blood summons. Decent mages and even amphibious troops.

(after this I would place EA miclan, LA ermor, EA caelum, LA marignon in some order - unsure which)

Which nations gets your votes, and why ??

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Why do you rate LA Mictlan higher than EA Mictlan?

As you say LA Mictlan has the nice amphibic units, but i would nontheless EA Mictlan rate higher because LA Mictlan has one huge disadvantage: LA has 2 nations with popkilldominions.

If Mictlan neighbors one of those 2 nations earlygame they will probably have blood hunting problems.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Yeah, I have to agree that Lanka is probably the most powerful. In fact, I have a hard time coming up with any that I'd say are definitely stronger than the three you mention. The thing about those three is they all have extremely potent early, mid, and late games.

FWIW, LA Mictlan and EA Mictlan are extremely similar, but LA does edge ahead due to:
Amphibious units who benefit from the strong bless you're already taking
Ability to summon ice devils without needing con-6 (EA needs water bracelets)
A couple of their mages aren't old

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Thank you for defining the game. That is so often the fault with threads like this.

Well, just to be me, and not put anything that anyone expects. These might not be "strongest" since I dont tend to think that way, but more "strongest for certain player types".

1) Oceania:
Based on tests it seems that Oceania is able to create a great mid-game lead. How well it does after that will be based on how well it can cash-in on that lead.

2) Arcos:
If the ability to win in early game is expansion, and mid-game is armies, and late game is magic (as some experts have said) then IF a research-build Arcos is able to get to late game they have the potential for major damage

3) Neifelheim:
Rather specialized but I think its one of the strongest races for turtling. In a large-map/all-nations game diplomacy might be sneered at but its a big factor. A good diplomat playing defensive and building up for the final battle can make good use of the mistakes of others. I tihnk that the giant nations are built well for turtling.

I think that Dominions is the type of game where specific "strongest" might have more to do with the players we have active at any time. If we get a powerful player who can really use the abilities of xxxxxxxxx then it call could shift. IMHO

Re: Most powerful nation
 

What is so great about EA Caelum or LA Marignon? EA Caelum is hosed if they can't diversify their magic. LA Marignon appears to be weaker than MA Marignon (to me at least).

Re: Most powerful nation
 

EA caelum - rapid expansion due to elephants. Clearly the potential to really screw none lighting immunities in mid game (storm, wratful skies, thunderstrike etc). They can diversify easily through their pretender and their spentas.

LA marignon - Cheap blood mages, good blood summons and access to angels. Good crossbows with easy access to fire arrows. They are also very powerful in both astral and blood - in my opinion the two strongest paths.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

I'll probably give reasoning later, but off the top of my head I'd say:

Lanka
EA Caelum
LA Rlyeh

Re: Most powerful nation
 

I think that since EA Helheim got its nerfs, there is now no single outstanding powerful nation.

Indeed the only balance problem that really exists with any of the nations over the 3 eras is one of being too weak compared to some of its rivals in that particular age. This applies to 2-3 nations only.

There is now a whole bunch of nations who are powerful but really only have a slight edge on other nations.

LA - Ermor/Rlyeh probably have a slight edge.
MA - Probably the most balanced, only Pythium stands out as having a slight edge.
EA - Oceania (if there are alot of water provinces), Lanka, Caelum, Niefelheim.

I think the map/player/diplomacy/site % all have a bigger effect on the game than individual nation choices.

Just look at perpetuality, it was so influenced by the inbalance of water provinces to land provinces.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

I dont think that it is possible to say Lanka is the best nation of all, as it depends on the players preferences.

And i would like to add MA Pangea as a very strong nation as they:

- have usable access to blood (not to play as a real blood nation, but strong enough for forging)
- can make earth stones
- has strong troops (centaurs) and access to earth and nature magic --> if you take some centaur cataphracts, add in relief, mass regeneration, giant strength weapons of sharpness and some more buffs, they can do serious damage.
- can reanimate and the pangean variant of undead is stronger than others.
- has strong mages avilable in every castle, and gets loads of freespawns
- maenads are not strong on the battlefield, but they tear down castles in no time, and can also defend castles very well.

the only thing that is missing, is access to battlemagic (fire, air) and astral but that are things that you can fix with your pretender.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

1)I would agree on Lanka. The only real weakness it has is no Astral on its mages. But that is easily made up for by all its other strengths.

2)I think Sauromatia is a strong nation and would rate it as number 2. Good sacreds, Mages that have high death, some blood and Astral. And the best archers in the game.

3) Really, is any of the Heims.With the right bless they are murderuss.
4) LA Ermor and LA R'leh.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

MA Pangaea is my favorite race, but I would not deem them the strongest even among the MA. MA Pangaea with a drain scale is a good counter to the astral races given Pangaea's high mr and hps. Stealth, blood, gorgon are very powerful.

MA Best nations

1. Pythium

2. Arcos

3. Vanheim(small to medium map)

Re: Most powerful nation
 

This is a link to the perpetuality game. Showing individual nation status.

http://67.66.187.69/dominions3/Perpetuality_Scores.html

Now, what I want to know is why the EA nations did so badly? Alot of the very good players, myself included thought they would dominate, yet overall they have'nt. What happened?

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Perhaps got whacked by paranoia http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Well, I think the thing to realize is that the outcome of this game is determined by a lot of things outside of nation selection and the sample set is not near large enough to draw conclusions.

Some players were ganged up on and killed before they ever had a chance
Some players started in poor positions
Some players had abysmal luck rolls regardless of their scales
Some good nations were played by novice players

And of course the converse of all that is true to

Some players started out with relatively little competition whether it was from the extra water provinces or non-agressive neighbors.
Some players found easy allies early
Some players saw good opportunities as one of their neighbors was easy pickings due to an unrelated war front.

The huge amount of noise (from the perspective of determining relative nation power) makes a sample size like this meaningless.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Yes you cant base too much "data" on only one sample.
But it is interesting and worth noting it. Now we need a few more.

There was also the data from my mega games (all AI's) which was abit easier to do since I could just set the game to continually host. Not worth alot by itself but it was handy in fixing some problems and getting some answers on how the AI fare against each other. Anyone can do that if they are curious.

SideNote: I really WANTED to say Pangaea (EA or MA) but the only reason I could think of was "because Im biased" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Baalz is correct the sample is small and all what he has listed had an effect on the game.

However, strong trends can still be spotted, especially as each age has 20+ nations in it.

2 such trends ermerged from the perpetuality game, one the dominance of water nations, effect. Easily solved, too many water provinces was the cause. Simple cause and effect.

The 2nd strong trend was the elimination of all but 3 EA nations from the game. Of those 3 not too be eliminated, EA Oceania and EA Lanka had stong advantages of being played by 2 very good players and starting locations. Did this help them avoid the fate of the other EA nations?

Its a very strong trend which leads me to believe, there is some ingame cause and effect going on. I would tentively put forward the higher protection values MA/LA nations have, better missile weapons in crossbows/composite bows/longbows and a strong trend of death magic in LA nations in particular.

I think basically, early on, the military forces of MA/LA nations has the edge on the battlefield over EA. This early edge carries on into the mid game and so on.

But its very hard to pin down, as its tiny when you compare 1 military unit vs another, but decesive when you have armies of 200 vs 200 in a large battle.

We will only have confirmation in Evermore, when/if it gets underway. It would not be surprising to see such a strong trend confirmed in another game.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Lanka is insanely tough. I do not think K even had to breathe hard killing off his first few races.

While K is a very good player, Lanka is insanely tough. It is easily the best land race.

Has anyone saying otherwise seen those mandahas(sp). I mean autocast darkness and soul vortex? Come on! And the capital only sacreds are insane. Throw in the strong blood and air, and they are just brutal.

So no, I do not think lanka prospered only because they had a good player or location. EA caelum is tough, but they went head to head with ma pythium(the best ma race). And they lost a close hardfought war. EA Caelum walked all over MA Abysia 1st before fighting Pythium.

Pythium is a tough draw for caelum because hydras>Mammoths.

So i think much of it was match ups, location, and diplomacy.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Well, i'm playing EA Pangea in Perpetuality, and i think me not being eliminated early was mainly because i took awake Gorgon as pretender - got over 1300 kills and helped immensely with early conquest, before dying in pretender duel.

Having Gift of Health up is a pretty nice bonus too.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

MA Vanheim actually defeated LA Pangaea, but before they lost their last province LA ermor stepped in and saved them, killing off vanheim.

So it would be misleading to think la pangaea > MA Vanheim
based on the perp game.

Not to disrespect any player's skill, but some races are still alive only because more powerful neighbors have been fighting amongst themselves and no one has gotten around to attacking them yet.

And some of it is matchups. MA Ctis is not a great race, but it matched up fairly well against LA Atlantis(leprosy, miasma), MA Oceania(Banelords > water troops on land), LA Man (Banelords, Wraith lords > castle bought troops).

EA Lanka was at a disadvantage fighting MA Ctis because he was the one storming castles, and I was the one defending them. Much easier to defend then attack for many reasons, not the least of which is you get to cast the spells 1st).

And some of it is pretender selection. Having an immortal pretender who has high death and can also cast banefire fighting in his own dominion is a decided equalizer.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

> Has anyone saying otherwise seen those mandahas(sp). I mean autocast darkness and soul vortex? Come on! And the capital only sacreds are insane. Throw in the strong blood and air, and they are just brutal.

They do not autocast souls vortex, although they can probably cast it without much problems.

I have thought about making them unique and three in numbers. IIRC there were only three of them.

---

I imagine placement on map and war/alliances have greater importance than any other factor. EA nations are likely to be attacked in an all nations game as they have slightly weaker national units and have access to great magic powers later on. Thus prime targets in the early game. Or they might be percieved as powerful (helheim) early on and thus attacked by several frightened neighbours.

In MP it is dangerous to look dangerous http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Lanka might be a weak nation just by being strong http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Most powerful nation
 

LA Rlyeh, without any real competition.
MA Ermor - cheap and evil sacreds for fast expansion and possibly raiding, mages spawning undead cavalry, astral + death (netherdarts, bugged vengeance of the dead).
EA and LA Mictlans.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Limiting my discussion to MA only, MA Ermor is definitely of the MA "powers." A very tough race. Likely has the best pd of any MA race with nether dart mage and good units.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

in MA i belive pythium, rlyeh, ermor and caelum deserves to be mentioned.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Agree with EH.

But do not sleep on Arcos and Vanheim. They are up there as well.

Arcos has elephants which allow for rapid expansion. Few MA races can withstand elephants when their morale is boosted until they fight to the death. Arcos also has cheap powerful astral mages.

Vanheim-despite the mini-nerf to glamour, double 9 blessed vans are sill almost thugs. The strong air magic, cheap resource skin shifters, with the double 9 blessed vans make Vanheim the single most feared MA race to start next to in a MP game.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Well, things change. Here are some of the bigger changes from the ulm.illwinter.com/dom3/dom3progress.html :



MA Vanheim
* MA van home only. Gold cost increase.

Mictlan
* Jaguar warrior 25 gold.
* All Mictlan troops forest survival.
* Mictlan MA priest added air random to reflect the arrival of the sky priests.
* Jade Serpent Mictlan summon.
* Mictlan MA sky priest.
* Mictlan moon warrior (nonsacred elite).


MA Ermor
* Shadow vestal cost increase


LA C'tis
* Keeper of tombs slightly less expensive, LA sauromancer slightly more expensive.
* Unholy bless fix.
* Tomb chariot reanimation enabled.
* Tombwyrm & chariot works

T'ien Chi (at least MA, perhaps EA/LA as well)
* Ministry Guardsman.
* Minister of Magic.
* Ministry of Rituals and ceremonial master made fortune tellers.
* Slightly altered descr for ministers etc.
* New spells for TC: Thousand Year Ginseng, Inner Alchemy.
* Conscription made more viable.
* Apothecary, Alchemist of the Five Elements, Imperial Alchemist, Imperial Geomancer.

Abysia
* Demonbreds not truly demons to disable their unthematic reanimation.
* LA Anathemant Salamander not only home anymore.


Bless rushes are going down (Van, Ermor, Mictlan) while at least LA C'tis, perhaps Tien Chi are going up. LA Abysia is going to be much better (F2 non-capital mage!), but the loss of demonbred reanimation hurts MA.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

I assume from all the reports here that Lanka is indeed a very good nation. Although my small experience with Lanka in the Boil the Ocean game (which has ended prematurely due to technical issues) showed it to be eliminated early on in the game. Admittedly, this could very well have resulted from the fact that Lanka is perceived as a strong nation which caused two of its neighbors to rush it early on. But then again this in itself is a weakness (as was said here before).

I think MA Pythium is being underestimated here and in general. I would assume that this may relate to the fact that its not straightforward to get the best performance out of this nation. I have used it very successfully in MP games with very good results (Jinxed Frechdachs comes to mind and also the current Dagur game). It has one of the strongest astral mages in the game (astral I believe is the strongest magic path), Hydras, access to angels and communion. All of which are not straightforward to use and may even backfire or be exploited against you if used wrongly.

I would place EA and MA Caelum high on the list of best nations for three reasons. Mammoths, Flight, cloud trapeze. Mammoths is for early game. Flight gives extreme strategic and tactical options. While cloud trapeze is an end game finishing move. Just imagine huge armies of seraphs popping out of thin air, pumping out air elementals, storm and wrathful skies. All of those factors I can attest from my experience are extremely effective. I have used them against unlikely odds in MP games (WOOF comes to mind here) and I think in general Caelum is doing quite well in the winning nations thread.

All the above represents my opinion based on my experience. In truth I think only statistics can be a real indication of a nation's strength because the factors are so many.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

"I think MA Pythium is being underestimated here and in general."

How so? I ranked them 1 in power in the ma.

And yes if you got eliminated early in the game as lanka you likely did not have a double 9 bless and likely did not maximize their abilities.

K should write a guide for EA Lanka.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

And how on earth can Angels backfire?

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Thinking the angels of the heavenly choir are useful and sending them in solo vs an army? I dunno - pythium seems like a pretty easy bet for top spot in ME. Only a few nations - possibly man or R'yleh, maybe Vanheim on small maps - can compete with them.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Removed.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Most of the EA Nations where killed very early, and i dont think the mages had much to do with it, i think the unarmored EA Armies just got walked over by the armored ones of MA and LA.

Dakinis are A3D1B3 and are just 50 slaves if you empower one of them you have access to the air boosters and all the big Air spells.

But there are mages with Death 2 and this is enough to bootstrap yourelf up to death 5. (moundfiend with skull staff and the +1D Helmet)

I just checked them out, and i think they are very strong. There might have some trouble in Midgame, as they need some Bootstrapping for Air and Death Magic but later on you become a real juggernaut. One benefit of being lana is that you dont really need scales, maybe growth, but i think there are less other nations that can take turmoil and sloth without much problems.

Also all your troops are sacred and with Mandahas you get H3 mages to bless them. A Rakshasa Warrior for 5 slaves is an good unit to make the mand fightingpower of your armies, if your enemy does not have enough archers Asrapas for 2 slaves can be very effective.

You have also stealthy sacreds (Sandhyabalas) and stealthy priests (Manushya Rakshasi).

Also as you can summon almost everything you need, it should be possible to bloodhunt in every province you own, maybe with the exception of the capitol and some plains to pay the upkeep for your bloodhunters and to recruit new Raksharajas.

I think i will try to get them for evermore.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

I wouldn't neglect the fact that your recruitable sacreds are actually pretty badass, in my opinion even the build everywhere Kala Mukha warriors are solid sacreds.

I was always of the opinion that strong blood (which they certainly have - top 3 for sure) made for a great mid and late game, not a strong early game. You also have highly cost effective researchers, can go into death nature and air without a real problem and don't have the drawbacks of EA and LA Mictlan.

Obviously K has a lot more experience with them than me, but I can't really agree with him.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

I agree with Sombre on the KM, but I don't see the point of recruiting demon sacred, as they are banishable. It's true that with a double ubber bless W/F and there good strength, they can do miracles.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

FWIW, I would really consider LA Mictlan more of a EA nation stuck in the late era, I'd count my survival in Perpetually in the EA column. Capital only real mages, low resource/protection toops, strong sacreds...

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Sorry, I've probably missed your post. Though the general tone in this thread didn't seem to rank Pythium at all.

Ahmm, I wasn't eliminated as Lanka, I was watching this happen as the neighboring Abysia http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
And its very likely that player did take double bless.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Removed.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Hehe, I'm to concise/cryptic/tired for my own good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

My comment was more strongly pointed at Hydras (oops - dead poisoned army) and communions (exploding armies, over fatigued slaves dying in droves)
Angels can't backfire of course but used wrongly they will be counter productive. This is a general statement that's true for most summons. Some examples that do come to mind are using Seraphs against rival astral nation and sub par usage of harbringers (which can be awesome in some situations and pathetic in others).

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Blood doesn't require a castle, lab, or temple. Just a blood hunter and a pair of scouts, preferably in a low income province. At most one would need a castle and lab. A temple is entirely unnecessary.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

K,

One point I have to disagree on is demons. Demons are one of the reasons I had the trouble with you that I did. Immune to disease. That offsets banish.

Banish does not work well with Lanka's sacreds that have 30 hps and regeneration(even with h3 priests). The only way i managed to kill those capital only sacreds is with banelords that had 70 gems worth of items. And as you pointed out in another thread, they were easy to banish to the inferno or kill outright with life for a life.

One advantage of Lanka is it does not need thugs. It own troops are thugs and its national summons are sc's.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Removed.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

K, I hate to break it to you, demons ARE immune to disease.

Poison immunity does not provide protection from Miasma. I hate to educate my future foes in the Big Game, but I feel obliged to share knowledge.

Swamp Protection and being cold blood protect from miasma. Additionally demons and undead are both immune to disease.

That is a fact.

EDI, where r u to confirm this fact?

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Xietor, I had a thread about miasma earlier. Undead units can be diseased by it, but apparently it doesn't decrease their hitpoints or give them additional afflictions.

Jazzepi

Re: Most powerful nation
 

well, that is a technicality. Ok they get the symbol, but they suffer no ill effect from it.

If you do not suffer the ill effects of disease, then for practical purposes you are immune to it.

It is these type of things that unnecessarily cause confusion among even the experienced player base. All you need to know if you are playing or fighting against MA Ctis is that undead and demons are not affected by disease.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

I always find it amusing when someone who throws around the labels of idiot and fool makes a fool of themselves. Demons are immune to the Miasma, or else they are so resistant to it that through all my various experiences and tests I have never seen a demon affected by the Miasma. Poison resistance, on the other hand, does nothing against the Miasma.
I assume you are speaking about Drain Life. If so, you are incorrect again. Drain Life works as normal on undead beings. Lifeless units on the other hand are immune.

Edit: Damn, too slow. Demons, undead beings (for the most part anyways), lifeless beings, cold-blooded units, and units with swamp survival are immune to the Miasma.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Basically the only Age I play is the MA, so my knowledge of those races is pretty sound. I know some of the offshoots that are now ea and la from dom II.

Aside from that, my knowledge of the EA and LA races is pretty sparse. So I will defer to those that play those eras concerning issues of balance.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

I guess I could say,

Only an idiot would think demons aren't immune to disease.

Only a fool would claim that without a recruitable H3 priest you can't bless armies.

Only an idiot would claim mass lvl1 priests are an effective counter to tough, sacred demons (who probably have nature bless).

... but since being a complete dick on this forum holds no appeal, I won't.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Removed.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

Sarcasm noted.

Is it not better to correct you now so that other people do not take your information as accurate?

Edit: Ah, you have deleted what you said. Probably a smart move.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

I haven't played Lanka extensively, but in my (SP) experiance, this could be a major issue. A province with an indie priest will usually kill one or two sacreds. I could see major issues with seven or eight of them. Yes, a nature bless helps, but regardless, the banishments still make it easier to kill them off some other way. An astral bless would be of huge help, but I doubt many people would take much astral on a lankan pretender - its possible, but I don't think it's the best bet for Lanka. Twist fate just isn't great on high hp units.

Re: Most powerful nation
 

I think it's an important distinction, which is why I made it. If a new player saw their undead units getting diseased, and didn't understand that they don't suffer from it the same way that regular units do, they might very well be confused and assume that the undead units really aren't immune despite what they've been told. Lord knows there's enough bad information on the forums already to make casting doubt easy.

Summary : Being concise is important, it isn't just a technicality.

Jazzepi