game idea: junkyard wars
 

maybe its because I like improvisational engineering, or mad-max style makeshift-destruction. maybe its because there is something inside all guys that desires to root around a pile of industrial scrap and find some great treasure. or maybe its just some irrational attraction to girls with english accents, but here is a scenario idea that I thought was cool:

setup a game with Lots of ruins on the map. I mean tons of the buggers, a veritable graveyard (or junkyard, i should say) quadrant. give players medium starting tech, and DISABLE (yes, that means shut-off, as in, you cant use it in the game) Applied Research. so, you cant research ANYTHING. At all. Ever. Period.

I would go on to describe advantages and shortcomings of how I predict the gameplay would be, but I think the concept speaks for its self. I welcome comments, input, and suggestions. I will probably start a game like this on the PBW host, seiv.pbw.cc sometime in the next couple days if people want to swing over and check it out.

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

This is a very weird and very interesting idea. I like it. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I imagine that technology trading would become _very_ important, and whoever expanded the fastest would have a major advantage. But if only one player was lucky enough to score astrophysics and then a couple of levels of stellar manipulation in a row, I'm sure he could buy all the "mundane" techs he needed to make himself more well-rounded. Or he could just revel in being the only player in the game who can blow up planets, making it a sort of "racial" tech. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Getting enough levels of Applied Intelligence to steal technology would be a killer advantage. Considering the counterintelligence bug in 1.41, you might want to disable intelligence for this one.

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

I think disabling trades and gifts would keep the game more in the spirit of "Junkyard Wars". Possibly intel should be disabled too (cause of the nasty bug).

Whoever gains ship capture first would have a definite advantage -unless another player has self-destruct devices...

I hope you do set this up as a PBW game.

------------------
Assume you have a 1kg squirrel
E=mc^2
E=1kg(3x10^8m/s)^2=9x10^16J
which, if I'm not mistaken, is equivilent to roughly a 50 megaton nuclear bomb.
Fear the squirrel.

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

Possible snag http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

Don't ruins give you extra levels in the tech you're researching? So what happens when you can't research anything?

------------------
Assume you have a 1kg squirrel
E=mc^2
E=1kg(3x10^8m/s)^2=9x10^16J
which, if I'm not mistaken, is equivilent to roughly a 50 megaton nuclear bomb.
Fear the squirrel.

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

Nope.

I've had AIs get some things which they will never research.

------------------
The latest Pirates & Nomads.
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Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

If you do set this up, I'd recommend you click the "can only colonize home planet type". Otherwise, the first person to get a second colony type wins, basically.

I think we need a catalog of "Concept Games"--see my Menagerie game on PBW for another concept game.

LL http://seiv.pbw.cc/

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

I love this idea! It's already making my head spin....

Are the contents of ruins set when the map is generated, or does the game determine the ruins' contents when the planet is colonized? Also, are there redundant ruins (e.g. two different ruins have Gas Colonization), or are all ruins unique?

I agree with no intel, but I like the idea of being able to command high prices from your fellow aliens for plum techs....

As for 'only home planet type': I'm trying to decide if playing a Gas or Ice race like that would set you at a disadvantage (fewer planets) or advantage (less competition).

Just my ramblings. When it's up, I'm in! (Wait, that doesn't sound quite right....)

Quikngruvn

------------------
"That which does not kill you will make you stronger." -- Nietzsche

[This message has been edited by Quikngruvn (edited 10 July 2001).]

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

Another thought... to slow down the colonization rush, I suggest altering colony modules so they are very expensive AND add the "Modified Maintainence" tag and set it to 300! That means they'll cost 4x normal mainainence (w/o racial modifiers, they'll cost what it cost to build them every turn)... this way empires can only use/build a few colonizer at any one time.

And no you can't set what tech is in ruins (except unique tech), but you can set HOW MANY techs are found at any one ruins.

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trachmyr:
I suggest altering colony modules so they are very expensive AND add the "Modified Maintainence" tag and set it to 300! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

An interesting suggestion, but one problem with that is that if the game is on PBW then u cant slightly modify files and use them like u could in a single player game or even a normal PBEM game.

Some mods are supported on PBW, but i dont think there are any plans to support small modifications such as the one u have suggested.

So to achieve the same effect u could always set the starting resources very low combined with a single homeworld. So that players cannot immediately build large masses of colony ships. It would slow them down, at least for the first few turns.

PS - if its ok with u Puke id like to be in on this game once u set it up.

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

This game is now accepting players. please go to seiv.pbw.cc to join. I added trading, but put a victory condition on that the first one to discover 85% of the techs wins. should make trading very interesting. settings follow:


Status: Game open to new players

Game description
Your race has been ripped from its home and deposited into the Junkyard Quadrant by the great god known as PBW. At the same time, all the great thinkers of your species were left behind. Your race will henceforth be completely incapable of research. Completely! That means none at all! Ever! Not even a little! None!

As fortune would have it, this quadrant is ripe with ruined civilizations. all you have to do, is colonize a planet with ruins, and take the tech you find. Your prophets have forewarned you that you will be competing against other races for these ruins, and they might not be friendly.

**SPECIAL RULES (PAY ATTENTION)**
NO RESEARCH
NO INTEL PROJECTS
you get 0 (ZERO) racial points. why? 'cause you will get plenty of points back once you take your research and cunning down to -50, since you wont be using them. (thought id point that out since a few people in the Furball game didnt quite piece it together)

Check out the special rules at the bottom. Game to start on 2001.07.20 (Friday) or when full. Special Thanks to all the guys on the Shrapnel Games message board who chimed in with lots of good ideas.

Starting resources: 5000
Starting planets: 1
Home planet value: Bad
Score display: Own
Technology level: Medium
Racial points: 0
Quadrant type: Cluster
Quadrant size: Medium
Event frequency: MEDIUM
Event severity: HIGH
Technology cost: n/a
Victory conditions: 85% of Techs discovered, 1st place lead by 300%
Maximum units: MAX
Maximum ships: MAX
Computer players: None
Computer difficulty: n/a
Computer player bonus: n/a
Neutral empires: No
Other game settings: Trading will be allowed! Colonize only home planet type! Colonize any atmosphere! No map saving!
Game information
Owner: puke
Turn number: Not Started
Players/max: 1/20
Last turn:
Next turn:
Turn duration: 72 hours
Turn automation: Fully automatic turns (key)
SE4 Version: Stock v1.41


------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gimboid:
PS - if its ok with u Puke id like to be in on this game once u set it up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes, come one and all. If this thread attracts enough people we will run it on a large map instead of a medium one.

I am also thinking of changing the 85% of techs discovered requirement. there are 327 'normal' tech levels, not counting racial techs and ruins. there are 4 unique ruins techs, and 68 levels of ruins techs. so 85% is 12 techs over what a normal race would get, so I will probably drop it down to 60%. open to opinions though.

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

How many turns before the victory conditions apply? I don't think you listed it, so should we assume the victory conditions are available immediately?

------------------
Assume you have a 1kg squirrel
E=mc^2
E=1kg(3x10^8m/s)^2=9x10^16J
which, if I'm not mistaken, is equivilent to roughly a 50 megaton nuclear bomb.
Fear the squirrel.

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Puke:
I am also thinking of changing the 85% of techs discovered requirement<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we should play a few turns and see how long it is really going to take to reach a significant % level (60, 85, whatever)

If its going to take &gt;200 turns to even hit 60% then i think u should consider lowering it

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spoo:
How many turns before the victory conditions apply? I don't think you listed it, so should we assume the victory conditions are available immediately?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i will probably put a 1 year timer on there just incase someone gets off to a lucky start with the score. i usually only put timers on games where 'peace' is an option for victory, so I initially left it off of this one.

I have a game that is about 65 turns in, and the player leading the tech race has 120 levels, and thats all through research. at 4-5 tech levels per colony, it will take you arround 60 colonies to hit 60%. anyone know how long it takes to get 60 colonies on a medium cluster map with 'only colonize own type' enabled?

I will try running a one player test game on the quadrant type to be used, and see how long it takes to do. I intend to generate the map by editing the ruins probability on the cluster quadrant and generating it randomly from that, so if inquiring minds want to know, that is how I plan on getting a fair (unknown to me) random map for the game.

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

OK, so I'm in the game.
Do we have to modify our files somehow in order to play? Spefically askking about the no research thing, as I couldn't find out how to do that without removing Research Center fom the facility list (so I could practice).

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lupusman:
OK, so I'm in the game.
Do we have to modify our files somehow in order to play? Spefically askking about the no research thing, as I couldn't find out how to do that without removing Research Center fom the facility list (so I could practice).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was about to say to deselect Applied Research in the Technology window of a new game, but it is conspicuously absent from the list.

Quikngruvn



------------------
"That which does not kill you will make you stronger." -- Nietzsche

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

That's because of this:

"Name := Applied Research
Group := Applied Science
Description := The capability of an empire to research new technologies.
Maximum Level := 3
Level Cost := 100000
Start Level := 1
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 0
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := False
Number of Tech Req := 0"

Phoenix-D

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

Ah. That would explain that.... Thanks for the enlightenment, Phoenix-D!

Quikngruvn

------------------
"That which does not kill you will make you stronger." -- Nietzsche

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

I missed that one too. Thanks.

I've noticed that most tech levels stay fairly low, as you can't jump levels. I've found this is most pronounced in the weapon techs. Rarely do I get higher than level 3's in DUP or Missiles for example. Anyone else getting this?

Maybe this is just my bad luck, but for some reason I keep getting things like Organic level 3 before I even get Destroyer class ships. Unless there's some good weed being grown in those organic farms, it's not going to help me! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
That's because of this:

"Name := Applied Research
Group := Applied Science
Description := The capability of an empire to research new technologies.
Maximum Level := 3
Level Cost := 100000
Start Level := 1
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 0
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := False
Number of Tech Req := 0"

Phoenix-D<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BAAAAH! foiled! I will edit the thing on my own, crank out a test game, and see if the server can handle the GAM file normally after it has been removed by the host.

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

this looks like it has taken a turn for the worse. I can get rid of research, and stop research facilites from bing built on your planet. you still get the initial 5000 point bonus on the first turn, so i guess it was a lie when i said 'not even a little bit'

the problem is that as soon at the .gam file is opened on a machine without the tweaked research settings, they will be available to research.

now, what I CAN do is set it so that the first level of applied research is not available on a medium tech start, and that SHOULD fix the problem. the game would generate, no one would get research facilities, and no one would have the ability to build them since they have AR at level 0. the free 5000 starting points isnt enough to buy level 1 AR, so that should be fine. everyone will get one free cheapie tech at the start i guess.

edit: i am not sure how to work around the problem of someone getting a level of AR from a ruin. I think it can be made unavailable through ruins, but ruins are generated when they are uncovered, not at game start. ideas?

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

[This message has been edited by Puke (edited 12 July 2001).]

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

You could always just remove the research centers from the facilities.txt.

That is the easiest solution to your problem http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

------------------
The latest info onPirates & Nomads (forum thread).
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Visit My Homepage

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
You could always just remove the research centers from the facilities.txt.

That is the easiest solution to your problem http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


that will get rid of it initially, but when the game is being run on an unpatched server, it wont stop people from finding the ability to build them. the easiest way would be if i could beseach the PBW admins to add the TRUE switch to the 'can be removed' variable. it would not impact anything else and would not jepordize the 'unmodified' nature of the game..

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

Puke, if you set "can be removed := True" when you generate the game, then use that game where "can be removed := False," would that allow the game to be played?

LL
http://seiv.pbw.cc/

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LazarusLong42:
Puke, if you set "can be removed := True" when you generate the game, then use that game where "can be removed := False," would that allow the game to be played?

LL
http://seiv.pbw.cc/ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


tried that, as soon as you run the turn on a copy of the program where =false, it becomes available for research again. this isnt a problem if 1) all the players set it to false and are unable to research the tech or 2) the server has it set to false and ignores their attempts to research it.

problem is that (1) still lets players find the tech in ruins.

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

I don't get it.

If the turns are processed with a False setting, no AR levels can be found, right?

Also, if a player does build a research center, won't it just cause an error with the turn.

Or else, we all go on our word not to build them, and someone will need to check all the player files periodically and make sure no reseach points are being generated.

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

Puke, how have you changed the chances for a planets to have ruins? I've changed StellarAbilityTypes.txt so that every planet has a ruin, but most will just give one tech.

Quikngruvn, trying to prepare....

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lupusman:
I don't get it.

If the turns are processed with a False setting, no AR levels can be found, right?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

right, but the pbw server is currently using the standard files, and cant just be set to false. It looks like I will have to run the turns by hand in order to make the game go.

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Quikngruvn:
Puke, how have you changed the chances for a planets to have ruins? I've changed StellarAbilityTypes.txt so that every planet has a ruin, but most will just give one tech.

Quikngruvn, trying to prepare....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that is indeed the way to go. the file seems to be read top-bottom, so if you want there to be any chance of things like unique ruins at a lower probablity, they need to go to the top of the list. then, you can have a couple ancient ruins at the bottom of the list each at 50% or so. ability value 1 for a ruin determines how many techs you will get for that ruin, so if you added 100% odds on the first one on the list and left the value at 1, thats why you are only getting that many techs. I will have them set between 3 and 7.

unique ruins will stay at 1/2% chance for each type, but they will move to the top of the list so there is actually a chance of them showing up. the value on them represents the specific tech you will get, not how many techs.

hope this helps.

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

man, this is going to be one crowded game! I am going to have to use an extra large map to make sure there is enough opportunity for someone to win!

When i set the start date for a week from friday and said we would start earlier if the game filled up, i was sort of joking. but hell, now we have 14 players and 7 days to go. i figured 5 or 10 people would show up, this is astounding.

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Puke:
maybe its because I like improvisational engineering, or mad-max style makeshift-destruction. maybe its because there is something inside all guys that desires to root around a pile of industrial scrap and find some great treasure. or maybe its just some irrational attraction to girls with english accents, . . . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

heh. guess you aren't the only one...

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Puke:
right, but the pbw server is currently using the standard files, and cant just be set to false. It looks like I will have to run the turns by hand in order to make the game go.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Puke, if you modify your data files, we can make it a mod and put it on PBW so it can run the turns. If you want too that is.

Geo

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geoschmo:

Puke, if you modify your data files, we can make it a mod and put it on PBW so it can run the turns. If you want too that is.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can certainly do that, and make a junkyard mod that would allow more of these to be done in the future. I figured it was not worth the hassle to add a mod to the server for a one-off game. If that is an option, i am definitly willing to put the changes together in a mod.

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Puke:
I figured it was not worth the hassle to add a mod to the server for a one-off game. If that is an option, i am definitly willing to put the changes together in a mod.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isnt it evidence enough that this thread has gone above the average number of responses. That there is significant interest in this type of game

This idea is intriguing as it presents such a varied style of game. So i doubt it would be a one off game, as everytime u play u would get different techs and react to other empires with different tactics in accordance with the techs u found or traded for.

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

What I have been told by the Admiral is that it's not that difficult to setup a mod (In fact, at some point he's going to show me how to do it myself) so even if it is a one-off, it's not a big deal. As long as the players understand we all have lives so it may take a couple days for someone to get time to do it. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Let me know when you get the mod setup.

Geo

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

alright, the mods up on the seiv.pbw.cc file library. anyone that wants to get some practice in before friday can pull it down and give it a spin. I need to do some final testing with it, so it might get revised before then. most likely it will stay just how it is.

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

Just got it.

Suddenly I think I may not have a anowball's chance in Hades because of my home planet type, judging by how many techs you can get per ruin....

Oh well, c'est la vie. I'll remember that for JYW2!

Quikngruvn

------------------
"That which does not kill you will make you stronger." -- Nietzsche

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

ah, but you will get less competition for those planet types. everyone else will be fighting over the rocks!

actually, with all the people we have, a few are bound to be using each type. just hope they are on the other side of the quad from you, since it will be fairly big.

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

Also hope no one finds colonization tech in a ruin :-)

Phoenix-D

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Also hope no one finds colonization tech in a ruin :-) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the game will be set for "only can colonize home planet type". But planet utilization up to value improvement plants would be a nice find...

------------------
Assume you have a 1kg squirrel
E=mc^2
E=1kg(3x10^8m/s)^2=9x10^16J
which, if I'm not mistaken, is equivilent to roughly a 50 megaton nuclear bomb.
Fear the squirrel.

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spoo:
I think the game will be set for "only can colonize home planet type". But planet utilization up to value improvement plants would be a nice find...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It will.

After I thiught about it, I may not be as screwed as I thought. At the beginning, everyone will expand at approximately the same rate (due to having one planet), unless starting position sucks royally. At the end, when the rocks are full, there should still be planets for me to pick up. It's the midgame I'm worried about....

Quikngruvn



------------------
"That which does not kill you will make you stronger." -- Nietzsche

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

Hi,
I downloaded the mod and applied to join the game. Is there anything else I need to do?

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

Uhm, I joined the game Last week and am waiting for it to start.
Now it seems I have to download a mod first??

D

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dragonlord:
Uhm, I joined the game Last week and am waiting for it to start.
Now it seems I have to download a mod first??

D<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

U dont need it before u join, just when u are playing. so go download it and u will be fine

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

you dont need to download the mod to play. the projected start date is still on for tomorrow, unless we are full now, which i have to go check on.

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

Okay, I know the mod is only for practice and I have also uploaded my empire by now.
But one question still remains: What about the Empires that use non-standard shipsets? There is three of them (Dragon Hegemony, Yanerian and Galctic Empire). Do I have to download them and put them in my Pictures/Races folder?

Sorry to ask such basic questions, but PBW is new to me.

Thanks,
Rollo

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

If the Users have set it up correctly, that is all you have to do. If not we can figure it out when it comes up.

It would still work even if you don't use there shipsets. It would just give you a different picture for them each turn. It's kind of wierd, but does not aafect the game play.

Geo

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

Okay, thanks a lot.

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

20 players, 20 empires uploaded!

I can't wait, though I STILL think I screwed myself over in empire creation. Ah... we'll see!

Quikngruvn

------------------
"That which does not kill you will make you stronger." -- Nietzsche

Re: game idea: junkyard wars
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Quikngruvn:
20 players, 20 empires uploaded!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and all but one of them was made with the right number of points too! thats pretty darn good! if we dont get a new emp in for the person in question by friday afternoon, we will go ahead and launch with 19. never fear, if you did not get an email from me, its not you.

I am going to setup a thread in the game forum for people to link to whatever shipsets they are using, since it seems like half or more of our people are using custom shipsets yet have not provided a link to one. what this means is that they will look different to each person on every turn, making ship recognition and diplomacy a real pain. I would HATE to think that people did this on purpose. and to the people who are just using the standard races from the game and have no idea what im talking about, dont wory, this does not apply to your empires.

but yes, this should be very interesting. I too think that i could have benefited from some different choices at race creation, the more I think about it, the more I think that Ice would have been the way to go.

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)