MA Ermor advice please
 

I don't need to know all the details, I like to find out stuff myself too, but I don't want to make ALL the basic mistakes either

I've never played an undead race before and I have no idea how ermor (in any age) plays out

I'd like a few pointers in the right direction about pretender build (incl scales etc)

-which blesses would be best for ermor and why
-would you play ermor MA with blessings
-which scales are important and which are not
-are there any scales I should put on the negative to save points?

a few suggestions for pretender builds would be nice. I'm doing a SP to practice for the MP I voluteered for

my current build is
Imprisoned Lich queen
A4D9
income 1 or 2
prod 2
heat 0
luck 3
growth 0
magic 0

dominion 5

I took high prod cus I read the quality units have high resource costs. Even though I'm imprisoned I only have a 9+4 bless because I'm very hesitant to take negative scales

I have no room for higher dominion in the build as it is and I never take a lower dominion than 5 either (like with the scales I like to be a bit save)

the only thing I might think about is drain 2 for 80 extra points which I would invest in higher astral and 1-2 dominion

another option would be death 4 astral 9

is the death blessing better than the astral one
(I usually play "good" races with earth/water/nature blessings so ermor is a whole new experience for me for my first MP too..)

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Shadow Vestals are ethereal, which already makes them rather good at staying alive. Their spears are magical and deal decent damage. However, as almost always, Fire or Water bless will work better for just pure damage, and pure damage is very good when the units can already survive without the help of a bless. Minor Death bless is interesting, but doesn't win games. It can be used to bring thugs down, though. Death 9 isn't good for magical weapons. It's a bit better for mundanes, because it gives a small chance of magic damage (to get past ethereal), and a good chance to get past armor (AN, and most massable armored troops have lower mag res than most ethereal troops). Fire 9 Death 4-6 would be a nice offensive, "evil" bless. Of course, you should start that with a Fire pretender, to avoid negative scales.
Ermor gets away with Dead quite nicely. Death magic protects mages from old age afflictions, so Death scale doesn't hurt you as badly as other nations.

Most good Astral damage spells are in Thaumaturgy. Mind Burn is nice. Soul Slay is awesome, and Enslavement is nasty. Alteration has Body Ethereal, which isn't quite as good for MA Ermor as it already has ethereal units, but it is nice to make some ethereal Principes or something. Also, any S1 mage can cast Body Ethereal and Luck on nearby units, like your pretender... That's nasty on a Wyrm or something.
Death gets good summons from Conjuration, mass summons from Enchantment (including Raise Dead, which can be used to swamp battlefields with endless undead) and Drain Life (but not much else) from Alteration. Shadow Blast is very good Evocation spell, but it costs gems.
Astral/Death doesn't have many combinations, but they are rather powerful. Conjuration has Nether Gate, which is hideously expensive and summons a group of ethereal giants all armoured and wielding magic-slaying Moon Blades. Evocation has Nether Darts. Every caster gets at least 15 darts... And as Ermor, you have dozens of casters.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Shadow vestals are very nice since they are ethereal and sacred. Also they cost almost no resources so you can go heavy on sloth and free up points. I have played against MA ermor several times, and a common build tends to be an astral-9, water-9 bless. Basically giving the vestals twist fate, more mr, more attacks, and very high defence.

You can achieve this for example with an imprissoned oracle and the following scales:
dominion: 8
order: 3
sloth: 3
heat: 0
growth: 0
misfortune: 2
magic: 1

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

So for a bless you'd advice water9/astral4 or something?

that would be kinda hard I think and is it wise to have a pretender without death magic?

I would like to keep astral since it's nice for end game (or so I'm told)

I could put in death 1 and drain 2 for 120 extra points which would enable that option if I take a pretender which start with some water magic.

on how to play.. I started with building high thaumateurgs for 5 turn and let them reanimate horsemen then I'm building those guys again only now for research. (once I have my 2nd fortress I intend to start buying the cheaper theurgs there for research though.) I dont'see myself having much problems with resources either since I'm not really buying much of the other troops atm. so I could drop the production scales a bit for more order scales (money is more a problem for me atm)

any advice on my thoughts as typed above?

From endo's remark the most important and straight forward advice seems to be to not take death 9 bless and spend points elsewhere (water to combine with the high def of the vestals and option of extra attack?) his reasoning seems sound.. what do others say about that?

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Death 9 isn't a great bless and you have fairly nice access to death magic anyway.
The Astral 9 gives your vestals a good MR boost to prevent banishment and twist fate to negate the first hit that gets through their ethereality(twist fate is also great on mages against rain of stones and such).
The Water 9 you seem to already have the general idea of.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

lol I read the strat wiki so I have a general idea of all the blesses.. just not completely on which is best and when http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif so I'm always open for advice (I intend to win my first MP game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif)

what about how I started the game, neglect research till I have a steady horseman factory in my main city then switch to research (in the meanwhile building a lector from time to time use with the horseman and when I want to use the shadow vassals I would send a high theurg for the blessings out with them)

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Nobody seems to be impressed with the D9 bless... but a D4 or D6 can give you a pretty good affliction boost with normal damage AND magic spells.

So D9 is probably not worth it, but D4 or D6 is a much, much cheaper "lesser bless". However, you already have strong Death magic.

W9 is strong. BUT the water path is not so much.
F9 is close and "boosts" W9 nicely.

You can raise legions of chaff.. but remember that MA Ermors regularly troops are quite strong just by themselves. Sloth may be a bad idea.

Bane Lords!

Astral magic is helpfull under most circumstances. Astral or Air provides late game mobility.

Easy booster paths:
Construction-2
Earth-E2
Nature-N2
Water-W3(with a W1 later)
Astral-E2S2(with S3 later)(power boosters at S5 and S6)

Later,
F1-D1 for fire

Air is VERY VERY HARD to get started with construction.
Hard. Hard. Hard.

Nature/Water has good and easy summons to get it going.

Death/Earth has some summons.

Air has the Fairy Queen.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Uh, if you can get Nature going, what seems to be the problem? You forgetting Faery Queens? Which have costs only in Nature but have, what, 3 air?

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Yes, I did miss them. It's not obvious from the spell description so I never summoned one.

Sorry.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

ehm now someone is saying go sloth 3 and another says I should not. My own (about 20 turns experience) says that so far I have not builds much regular troops and that cash is always nice. with cash you can easily build more fortresses to give more places to buy troops even though there is less per site (but you need to be able to spread you troops over the whole dominion to defend it better so I'd say going 1-2 sloth and then 3 order would be nice.

I getting convinced that at least water 9 is the way to go.. but bout death I hear conflicting things now..
The reasoning to go for astral 9 after water 9 seemed very good though so those (lord bob) who are pro death.. can you tell why taking death in stead of astral 9 would be better?

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

You are forgivennnn!111

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

We are all entitled to our own opinion I suppose. But ethereal sacreds are very potent, and shadow vestals are very good for early expansion as well as early conflict with neighboring nations. In my opinion you should pump out the maximum number of vestals each turn (determined by how high dom you picked, so you want high dominion). They cost 40 gold 3 resources (thats a gold/resource ratio of 13, which is really high). This clearly suggest that you can get away with alot of sloth if you need the extra points.

When you pick a bless you look at the stats of your units and try to either cover a weakness and/or build on a specific strenght:
Why astral-9/water-9?. Vestals have no armor and low hp, twist fate basically gives them another life. Also the extra mr will make them very hard to use banish on (cover a weakness). They also have very good starting defence so adding more will be very potent, thats why I would go with water-9 as well. Also you can pick this bless with an imprissoned oracle rather cheap (compared to a fire-9/water-9 bless).

As for scale order is critical, you want more gold simply. rest is probably up for personal preference.

You can of course go with some high production build and not build vestals, but it seems like a weaker and less effective build for me (but try some builds out for sure, and pick what you find most fun).

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Aren't vestals just 20 gold and 3 resources until the patch when they become 35 gold each? Or are you talking about in CB?

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Well, I like the idea of having high grade non-undead armies to kill legions of priests.

W9-S9 bless seems very, very nice, BUT everyone should remember that MA-Ermor has similiar troops to MA-Pythium.

And that means very tough.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Ah sorry, had the balance mod enabled when I checked http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif. Still 20 gold and 3 resources seems to work with sloth as well.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Taking Death-9 is almost certainly never better than taking Astral-9

A WEAK Death bless like D4 or D6 can be usefull.

But if you are going all out for bless, by all means take

W9/S9 and Sloth-3

That is a strong bless strategy.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

From someone currently playing MA Ermor in a multiplayer game sloth 3 isn't too bad - you can still afford nice amounts of legionaires.
I took a F9S9 bless in this game and it served me very well - allowing my vestals to run through my neighbours when I fought them without too much trouble.
The reasons for S9 have already been listed. The F9 was there for a number of reasons including diversifying my magic and giving the vestals some real hitting power - allowing them to punch through enemy lines before priests and mages could pick them off.
My bless was already made known in the forum thread a long time ago and anyone who can see my dominion knows I have sloth 3.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Shadow Vestals are excellent for early expansion, MA Ermor can easily grab a huge empire in the first 12-20 turns with Dom 10, S9/W9 bless. A thermaturg with 20 shadow vestals will slice through ANY lvl 5 indie. Like a knife through butter. Pump as many of those armies out and conquer indies like you have never conquered indies before.

However, when you start running into other players, your invincible shadow vestals will then run into serious problems. They have huge problems with any fire nation such as Marignon and Abysia. Vestals hate fire! There are also many other undead counters. So I advise, using them in a stealth, raiding capacity after that.

Switch to your human troops then, backed by your strong astral/death magic.

Shadow blast, later nether darts are great offensive spells. Remember, communion/communion slave. Banes/Banelords/Tartarians. Well of misery for extra death gems, other players normally will not try to dispel this global.

There are lots of other stuff to play with but I will leave that for you to discover.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Meglo, I havn't used W9S9 too much but 8 F9S9 Vestals led by a thaumaturg(dump any spare resources from that turns recruitment into a legionaire meatshield) is more than enough to challenge most indies level 7 or lower although avoiding knights would probably be a good idea.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

I dont get it, why ask stuff like that? I've tried every nation atleast a few times, and I think you should go play instead of asking how to play.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

hmm evil homer seems to have the same idea's as I get when reading all this.. if you dont'go for sacreds then I shouldn't go for a bless build after all... then I can better go for high prod. with a SC but that is a whole other game, appeals less to me (I want a high level mage (pretender for late game high impact spells)) and in all my games so far I've been relatively light on troops and certainly in teh start I always needed as much cash as I could find
... so far.. I'm thinking in the direction of a W9S9 bless with at least 2 order, preferably 3 luck, a reasonably high dominion and if I need negative scales I'd put 2 in sloth first, maybe some heat and cold to since I figure I need less supplies --> do you all agree?

my most pressing concern now remains wether Drain is a problem or maybe even good for my nation (drain 2 for only -1 RP means I can go) --> or are ther otehr things I should take in consideration?

9S9W
3 order
2 sloth
2 cold
0 growth
3 luck
2 drain
and keep dominion on 8
with a imprisoned oracle

so far 3 lcuk has been a given EH used 2 misfortune even which means I could put 5 scales more positive elsewhere.. but compared to my setup just above here.. which one would you all trade for luck.. or would you leave the luck too?

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Chances are he has played with them. He's just asking for advice to see if he missed anything or if there are ways in which he can improve his build. Alot of players ask for help with nations they have to play(myself included) and several players write guides for various nations.

edit: Order and luck, while nice, is a little bit wasteful as luck reduces how many events you get. Keep it if you want it by all means but you'll be missing out on alot of points. Misfortune 2(or 3, if you feel you can risk it) could buy you up to magic 1 and maybe get you a bit of growth/a bit less sloth(if you want) too.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Don't get luck 3 with order 3.

Take order 3 misfortune 2.

Jazzepi

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

I think he wants to survive past turn 30! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

But seriously, not everyone has the time to play every nation. I still have not played every nation and I have been playing nearly a year now. To really get to 'know' a nation, you after play 50+ turns. As somethngs are not apparent early on.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Serenity sure I will play (I just started a game) them but as I said I want to win my first MP game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif and I have set my mind on playing with this nation I know nothing about so far.. so since I have no time (at least I hope the game starts this week) for 3-4 SP games to see wether sloth 3 is REALLY a problem etc. (I'll admit that even in my SP game I'd like a decent start cus why learn the basics of a nation in 3-4 games when with a lil asking you can learn a lot in 1-2 (I'm posting and reading here while waiting on the turns.. not like I have something better to do.. I like to see it as MAXIMIZING my learning curve in minimum time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif)

I mean if I need to play 3-4 games with ALL RACES just to learn the basics of them then i'd take way more time than I have.. I've got a pretty busy just, and it's taking way more hours than most people spend on their job (here in the netherlands at least) so I just have to take short cuts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif and I'm not ashamed of it either. And strat talk in general will improve my game with all nations and I like it.

Jazepi.. that would indeed give me 200 point to spend which could nicely go to growth 3 for a better base late game and .. soemthing else. But the gem/magic item/heroes are always such nice surprises... makes the list worth reading http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I still would like more opinions on drain/magic most games I just take drain 2 for just -1 RP and build more mages (which I can afford easily with the + scales I take for those)
what are your thoughts? any other things that you guys think I should take into consideration with magic vs drain in general and for MA Ermor specifically?

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

I think that, in SP, you could relly heavily on Death enchantments, like,(an example I've chosen randomly)the marvelous undead elephants(3 to 4 in each main army), who will crush the AI hordes. I also think you should not take sloth, cause basic undeads rarely win battles alone.(1 or 2 prod could help for a beginner, (I often take prod)). The rest as been developped before in this forum.
Ah ! I don't think vestals kick that much, 'cause, if I remember well, they're capital only.( not sure of this one)
Anyway, a zero prot sacred needs lots of buffs before becoming usefull.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Vestals are capitol only but with 8 or higher dominion+bonuses for temples later it isn't that bad.
Sure they have 0 prot but they also have very high defence, ethereality and(with an S9 bless) twist fate.
With their low cost(3 resources and 20 gold currently. Going up to 35 gold with the patch) you can also always get your maximum amount per turn.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

I used to do this a lot. What I discovered is that it really depends on your mages. If you have 7-8 research point mages, then you can probably afford to take the -1 research hit and go drain 2 with the intent of spamming forts + mages to catch up with other people who have +1 magic.

If you don't, and a good example would be a nation like EA Abysia, or MA Man, you're locked into having at least magic 1. If you take drain 2, for instance, with EA abysia, your prime researcher only produces 3 points of research per turn. I shouldn't have to explain how abysmal that is.

What's really happening is that the lower research your guys are, the more an improvement percentage wise an increase in the magic scales are. The higher researcher your mages are, the less relative benefit you're getting out of it.

Jazzepi

Jazzepi

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Assuming you can get the death income, it's often a good idea to go for skull mentors as MA Ermor.

I'll expand on the advice that Meglobob and Aezeal have been giving. This is my most successful MP build for MA Ermor:
9S9W Imprisoned Oracle
3 Order
3 Sloth
2 Misfortune
1 Magic
Domstr 8

I think that balances out (I'm at work waiting for a colleague who IS LATE); if you've got points left over take a Growth.

An early expansion army should consist of an archtheurg and 16 shadow vestals. Put ten or so of the javelin legionaires *in front* of the vestals and set them to fire, which will prevent the occasional vestal casualty that you'd otherwise suffer from archery (legionaires are basically arrow-proof). That'll keep you going for a while.
EDIT: The shadow vestals should be set to attack. This set-up is resistant to archery but doesn't have much archery of its own to fall back on.

Against another player, put legionaires of some kind (we can argue endlessly about which kind is best, but the pros and cons generally balance out) in the front rank, shadow vestals behind them (set to attack rear) and undead in the rear behind your mages to soak enemies set to attack rear and to mop up in case the rest of your army flees for whatever reason.

Put the mages in the middle of the army and slightly off to the side - *never* leave them in the actual middle where they default because sometimes the computer mysteriously chooses to shoot at that spot. Spread them out in a line. Give them bodyguards that can't be targeted easily.

With Const 4, Evoc 5 and Thaum 2, you have battlemages that will punish enemy players well into the late mid game. Put ~three archtheurgs with skull staff (optional), eye, spell focus and *some kind of armor* and ~eight theurgs. The theurgs all form a communion and the archtheurgs cast shadow blast through it. This will often kill an entire enemy army, even of crazy stuff like angels. The armor, by the way, is an absolute must to protect your investment in these guys. Even a shroud of the battle saint makes them essentially immune to stray arrows, and much more resistant to assassins.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

a question do you let the enemy come to you with that setup (javelineers in front of vestals) or doyou just start em like that and then let the vestals attack?

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

preatorius why not use cold or heat.. seems to me that would be better than misfortune or sloth cus you really don't need that much supplies right?

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

the drain 2 would also ive higher MR against banishment right?

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

I charge at the enemy with that set-up. The legionaires are just to absorb arrows/knight charges for the first 2 rounds of battle really.

Why not use cold or heat? Because each also causes a 5% income loss(although I took DrP's scales+some cold so I could buy growth).

edit: You can just edit your post to add small notes like that thing about drain http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.
Yes, drain 2 would give +1 MR but your vestals already have enough and you can boost your low MR undead with spells. That boost also works for both sides of the battlefield, and with your magic being MR negates(nether spells, shadow blast and such) you want the enemy with as low MR as possible.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Actually, I think this might be a better build (Archaeo suggested it on IRC):

Dormant Oracle, 4F4W9S, Domstr 9
3 Order
3 Sloth
3 Growth
1 Misfortune
2 Drain

The loss of quickness on the shadow vestals hurts considerably, but the extra money (and theurg life expectancy) is muy nice, and +2 attack is nothing to sneeze at. You don't go through indies *quite* as viciously but it's still not at all bad.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

well I already submitted
W9S9
dom 8
order 3
sloth 3
0growth
1 cold
1 misfortune
1 magic
imp oracle

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

That only has 1 better net scale and 1 higher dominion than the dual bless build. For example, you could take 1 more misfortune and 1 less dominion and get a dual bless again.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

OK in my SP game I'm having quite some difficulties to destroy the larger R'heyhey forces,
The commander existing of all globes (Vastness) the weird mud like thins (greater otherness) which ahs only 3 attack and defense but which trample all my undead and the black sluglike thingies.. etc

If he has like one of the first and several of the latter 2 and about 30 illithids (in various sizes) and a few meteor guards .. With the regular armies I have around through my dominion (like 4-6 theurgs around a few dozen archers, horsewarriors, loads of undead (longdead horsemen and warriors) and a commander or 2.. The strange beasts he has crush all my infantry, spellcasters paralyze my archers.

my mages had a communion of 4 slaves, one master, casting shadow bolts and later raising dead, the other 2 theugs kept casting nether darts...
my archers where shooting the illiths in the back (hardly doing damage on 30 HP guys) my spell casters casted on the strange beasts.. hardly doing damage the infantry killed maybe one or 2 of the mudblobs but only got trampled

maybe some advice on how to do this... I can beat the AI player by just throwing LOADS and LOADS of troops at him but i'm loosing WAY and WAY more troops and I'm not liking it

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

I'd much rather have the quickness and slightly worse scales. Quickness allows you to transverse the battlefield much faster. It also makes it easier to mow down the opponent when they're trying to flee which is extremely important. With a small army of sacreds it can be difficult to win a battle decisively without quickness, as you might route the opponents, but then they just run away.

Jazzepi

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Ok but my build has been made, the game has started. Jazzepi you hvae advice for dealing with Rhlyeheh , PS the above example was on land.. in sea it's even worse...

In sea I usually just mass 120 undead on a theurg with ring of waterbreating and then take a weak prov and then try to expand a bit and keep building in each prov I capture.. but dealing with strong enemy armies in water REALLY REALLY goes BADLY.. usually I have to retreat, hope the army breaks up and parts go on land.. where I might be able to kill them....

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Try to use powerful summoned commanders with magic equipment (known as thugs and SCs). They are somewhat more effective underwater than a normal army.



Arcane domination is very effective against Rlyeh as well, so long as you have a rune-smasher and eye of the void

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Try bottles of water with your water gems on your commanders.

Also try to use that shark attack spell if possible.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

I'm saying that even on LAND I have huge problems against these units.. and I don't have THAT much powerfull commanders who are fully equipped.. I''m pretty sure they can't beat a large army with some powerfull commanders by themselves though

I'm trying an eater of the dead next.. see what he can do.. and a wraith lord and a grand theurg and 4 normal theurgs.. and some army ..

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Eater of the Dead is very very poor for it's cost/tech level. Invest in banelords/tartarians instead and try to see if you can empower to cast abominations. Also don't forget to spam antimagic

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Do you have the:
Dom 3DB at:
http://koti.welho.com/ehalttun/Dom3/ ?

If you look up illithids there you will see they are a 50 gold unit. So while you make think you are fighting "only" 30 illithids, that is 1500 GOLD in units.

From what little I know of R'yleh I think the Greater Otherness and Vastness are SUMMONED or Void Gate or some such thing monsters.

The Mindless undead are probably doing better than you think against such a swarm of high cost units.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

I also would like to bring to your attention the database at Sunray's virtual library.
http://www.freewebs.com/dominions2/
It's quite handy how the units are organized by nation.
I use both databases, but the one I hit first when facing a nation I haven't fought before is Sunray's. Edi's is good as well, containing (lots more) different info in a different format, but takes several times as long to load, and is aimed a bit towards modders and mapmakers, etc.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Only 30 or not.. I'm not even getting near them those blobs and whatever .. only 10 -15 of em are taking my army apart bone by bone

I'm summoning tartarians as we speak (2nd one coming in , I just got lvl 6 consturction too so am crafting a load of weapons, I'll be summoning a load of tartarians and wraith lords next.. that should do something..

PS what do you guys think of the ether lord (ether gate)

anyway I must admit to lord bob that once that army was out of the way (and I have no idea where they have gone since I've not killed them.. maybe he has retreated and I'll encounter them later..) that as of yet I've not encountered a similar army and I'm taking provinces of him by the turn

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Good units, but not a cost efficent summon. I would only recommend it if you are in need of a high level mage with the specific paths the ether lord has (S3D3).

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

yeah I admit seeing my tartarians I can see much better use for them, a ****load of HP is just nice, combined with strenght and some slots for stuff... nice nice nice

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

Remember to cast gift of reason on any afflicttion free tartarians(or atleast those who aren't mute/feeble minded) to get some versatile mages and potential SCs.

Re: MA Ermor advice please
 

what is your most efficient build to reach D7 and casting Tartarians ?

A lich +1 skull face +1 staff +1 empowerment ?