Stats for a war wagon - suggestion needed
 

Hello dear modders (or lurkers !).

I'm slowly, but surely, polishing my small mod for an eastern Europe inspired nation for Dom3.

I would like to build for them a War Wagon, a bit like the Hussites and the Poles used, but slightly modified, to conform to Dom 3. It would consist of a wagon, with 2 horses and a crew of 3 or maybe 4 soldiers.
The armament would be a halebard (maybe something longer) and 2 or 3 crossbows. Or 1 or 2 crossbows and a large shield.

It should be able to resist against a knight charge.

As there is no true war machines in Dom3 and the engine is not really suited for them I'm thinking about maybe, 2 or 3 units, with 10hp each, once the first is killed the second one remplaces it (with one crew and a weapon less) until there is no crew. However there is a problem as the warwagon would be probably size 4 and it would be too easly destroyed by archers. Maybe the war wagon should have some parry value to help protect of incoming missliles ? And probably a good defense stat as it's difficult to hit somebody hiding before a one or two meter wall of wood. I would probably give however only basic protection as the soldiers were rather poorly armored and once hit should die easly

The other problem would be the horses. A smart enemy would try to take them down first i imagine. (In reality the war wagons fighted immobile, but Dom3 let me do what i like http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif )

There is probably more problems like how should it work against magic etc..

What's your opinion, suggestions or ideas ?

Thanx

Re: Stats for a war wagon - suggestion needed
 

Trample, high strenght, decent move, high armor, low defense

give is multiple shapes each resembling a number of crew
so
first shape 10 HP, 3 attacks OR 3 arrows fired (pplz on machines/wagons should always have a bow)
AND a trample attack of the machine it self
wait this wouldn't work with high strength.. the regular attacks should be low strength.. so normal human strength and a HIGH power trample attack
then after 10 damage (first crewmember dies)
shapechange to 2nd form
again 10 HP, now 2 attacks or 2 arrows AND that trample attack
shapechange to form 3
with 10 HP and 1 attack and one arrow
and then if that one dies the wagon rampages (attacks in random direction with only trample attack) and takes 1 damage each turn (and give it low HP so it dies quickly and one has to actually kill the damn thing)

Re: Stats for a war wagon - suggestion needed
 

Thanks Aezeal for your suggestions,

Multishpe design is the way I think. However I think we need a high defense low armor profile, if an arrow or a blade hit someone on the wagon he should be easly disablead. The difficulty being to hit somebody hiding in the wagon.

When coming to trample, I have tried what you suggest and I find it's a bit overpowered, the trample effect make far more casulaties than the crossbows or the weapons. And artistically I don't like too much the effect of a wagon going here and there on the map. Finally I'm not sure if we want another Elephant style unit. I'll try now without trample and see what happens.

It's a great idea to do what you suggest with a rampaging trampling wagon to end it's life when evrybody is dead on board, but is this effect possible to mod ??

Another question : the warwagon by default is firing but not moving. If i set it to attack then then the range weapons are not used. Is it possible to move and fire ?

Re: Stats for a war wagon - suggestion needed
 

First kills could off the horsies, making it an immobile archer platform? Subsequent kills would be picking off the archers.

First kill higher hp lower defense/prot; subsequent low hp, higher prot, low def?

Re: Stats for a war wagon - suggestion needed
 

Just a note: if you give them low protection and high defense they will be super vulnerable to archers, unless they have a ton of hp. Def is not relevant to shooting. You could give them shield based armour though, which makes them unit harder to hit, but doesn't work vs. really strong hits, AN weapons and has 50% effect vs. AP.

Re: Stats for a war wagon - suggestion needed
 

Or they could have a high defence and a weak shield called 'wagon cover' or some-such that has low protection but very high parry value.

Re: Stats for a war wagon - suggestion needed
 

I worked out how I'd get the Empire war wagon working for the Warhammer: Empire nation.

Form 1 - Two horses, some missile prot from a shield much like the one Shovah describes. It has 3 missile weapons, one long range mutliple shot one, one medium range and one close range. Each of these only has 1 ammo. It has trample. This means if it isn't hit it will fire off the long range, move closer and fire off medium, then close range, then finally it will trample.

But if hit hard enough, it switches to..

Form 2: One horse. As form 1, but slower and lacks long and medium range weapons, forcing it to still try and close in to use the 1 shot from the short range. If this is damaged it goes to..

Form 3: No more trample. No more moving. Better cover effect, higher natural prot, ok hp and several melee attacks from the crew. It also regains the medium range missile weapon with 3 ammo, so it can fire at stuff as it flees, or still be useful if both horses got blasted half way to the enemy.

So basically it advances while firing, then tramples, if it takes too much damage it stays put and either fires away or kills stuff up close in melee.

After battle it always returns to form 1.

Pretty tough unit.

It's a bit different from the hussite style defensive war wagon you're after, but maybe it will give you some ideas.

Re: Stats for a war wagon - suggestion needed
 

Sounds like a sweet unit, have it been implemented or still in design?

Re: Stats for a war wagon - suggestion needed
 

Still in design. I have all the code in my head and it's totally doable, would take a few minutes to type out. But the graphics will take a while.

Re: Stats for a war wagon - suggestion needed
 

You are right, I'm using for now for test purposes a shield with parry value of 7 and it's good enough to not get killed with evry arrow. The results are that with poor armor (those of soldiers in fact, something like 8 for now) but high defense (from natural and shield) and the good parry value, the wagon needs to be ganged up by some soldiers to be defeated and resist pretty well to 'light arrow density'. It resist pretty well too against a knight charge, thing wich was the first purpose for me. I'll test it against a high density arrow rain to see if i should choose a higher parry value.

I'll try to make him enough good to not loose more than one crew against 5 standard infantry but to die swiftly if more of them come.

Re: Stats for a war wagon - suggestion needed
 

Sombre,

You have a very intersting idea with that Warhammer wagon, and have found how to fire and move ! For my part i'll probably do two wagons, one clearly defensive with crossbows and a melee attack, and one offensive version with mostly melee weapons and maybe a short range ranged attack with low munitions just like javelins.

I will probably use idea you and Tichy suggest of disabling horses, will do some test.

Mine is for now returning to it's basic form only from form 2 (it has 4) and is eliminated at the end of battle in form 4 ( I consider it's too much damaged, crew is dispersed etc...)

In attachement you may see a very basic version of my full crew wagon, still needs improvements and original horses but it's better than using elephants for tests http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Stats for a war wagon - suggestion needed
 

personally I'm not so much for new races, I usually play games with the races as is.. but a special province which anyone could find http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif that would not change balance (I have this strange idea the game as is is balanced, I know it's not but it's the balance the makers gave it so it how it was meant to be http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif, silly me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

anyway a "tech" province with warwagons (I'd totally see this a a gnome laboratory (D&D gnomes) creating one strange thing after another (warwagons (in different sizes) and other strange stuff, guns maybe.. yea I'd like that much better than a separate race)

OW and use em as mercs... same reason equal acces to all = always balanced

Re: Stats for a war wagon - suggestion needed
 

Are you still thinking about killing the horses?
I just ask because it does not seem to fit with dom3 standards. We have lots of mounted units and chariots and of the few that do have 2 forms its always the mount that lives not the rider, regardless of respective armour ratings.

Re: Stats for a war wagon - suggestion needed
 

Good point Cor2,

For now I'm trying both solutions and still not decided, I will probably go with the most playable, fun one, but the point you underline is important as I try to integer the best my litlle mod in the Dom3 world. The fact of not killing horses would also simplify the unit and it's 'readibility' by players.

Aezeal :

I understand your point about straight not modded game, personally I'm developping this mod mostly for my own use cause I would like some east european mythology in the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. About balancing the races : in fact I don't care too much when a race (or unit) is underpowered, I just don't want it to be too strong. Dom 3 races are not all balanced but after all Dom3 world is not fair and I like it that way.

Re: Stats for a war wagon - suggestion needed
 

Well, going off of the Wagenburg used in the Hussite Wars:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagenburg

To start with, I'd have to consider something that large (Size equiv to Elephnant?) to be a Construct. This means it has good Protection, zero Defense, lots of HP and no issues with Morale

Being Wood, it would also be Vulnerable to Fire [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Campfire.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Campfire.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Campfire.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Campfire.gif[/img]

It would not be Sacred, with a high Resource Cost relative to its Gold cost.

Based on historical laagering tactics, they would have a Move of 1 in the field, but would be Immobile on the battlefield.

Essentially, the Wagenburg would simply be mobile battlefield barricades, backed by a contingent of troops. Not a bad tactic for dealing with chaff-heavy armies.

Re: Stats for a war wagon - suggestion needed
 

I wouldn't have it as a high hp construct, because enemies attacking it would obviously go for the crew rather than hacking at the wood.

Re: Stats for a war wagon - suggestion needed
 

Autochton : Using it as a moving barricade is historical, but i'm not sure it's the only way I will do it. For now I have constructed 2 wagons. One will work as you give the example, a defensive way, not moving, firing a lot of crossbow shots. The other one will rather move to contact of the enemy.

I'm now decided to use the multiple 10hp forms. It works well and is more fun.

The mapmove is 2 to let it go with most infantry armies.

I will maybe give it the fire vulnerability mostly for fun and to give it a vulnerability, even if IMO, a wood wagon would probably not burn so easly.

As for the resource gold cost :
The resource cost of the Crossbow WarWagon would be those of 3 crossbow, 1 Spear, 4 armors and helmets, plus a cost for the WarWagon itself. I'll have to decide about the gold cost too.

Re: Stats for a war wagon - suggestion needed
 

Here's my suggestion: Start it with relatively few hp but a high parry, trample size 4, and a decent movement. Have a second form that is immobile and can fire arrows but isn't a construct, again with low hp but higher prot replacing the high parry. And then a third form that is an immobile construct with lots of hp and decent prot, but has no attack.

All forms would be vulnerable to fire.

That would get you a front line of shock troops which would be able to mow down chaff troops, and then provide light missle support and some protection against charges in the form of size 4 barricades.

Re: Stats for a war wagon - suggestion needed
 

I just finished my beta code for the Empire War Wagon and I thought I'd share it on here, in case people were interested. Many of the values may/will change, this version was just for testing, where it did exactly what I thought it would and generally kicked ***. If you can't 'read' mod code refer to my previous post about the War Wagon in this thread.




-------- New Weapons


---- War Wagon Form 1 Longrange

#newweapon 680
#name "Missile Weapons"
#dmg 10
#nostr
#armorpiercing
#att 2
#def 0
#range 30
#ammo 1
#nratt 4
#flyspr 109 1
#sound 13
#end

---- War Wagon Form 1 Midrange

#newweapon 681
#name "Missile Weapons"
#dmg 10
#nostr
#armorpiercing
#att 2
#def 0
#range 20
#ammo 1
#nratt 4
#flyspr 109 1
#sound 13
#end

---- War Wagon Form 1 and 2 Shortrange

#newweapon 682
#name "Missile Weapons"
#dmg 10
#nostr
#armorpiercing
#att 2
#def 0
#range 10
#ammo 1
#nratt 4
#flyspr 109 1
#sound 13
#end

---- War Wagon Form 3 Midrange

#newweapon 683
#name "Missile Weapons"
#dmg 10
#nostr
#armorpiercing
#att 2
#def 0
#range 30
#ammo 5
#nratt 3
#flyspr 109 1
#sound 13
#end

---- War Wagon Form 2 and 3 Melee

#newweapon 684
#name "Crew Polearms"
#dmg 7
#att 1
#nratt 3
#def 0
#length 5
#end



---- Hook Halberd

#newweapon 685
#name "Hook Halberd"
#dmg 10
#att 2
#def 0
#length 5
#bonus
#end


---- Ball and Chain

#newweapon 686
#name "Ball and Chain"
#dmg 6
#flail
#nratt 2
#att 0
#def 0
#length 5
#bonus
#end


---- Mancatcher

#newweapon 687
#name "Mancatcher"
#dmg 11
#armorpiercing
#att -2
#def 0
#length 5
#bonus
#end

------- New Armour

---- Wagon Cover

#newarmor 281
#name "Wagon Cover"
#type 4
#prot 15
#enc 0
#def 2
#enc -2
#rcost 1
#end


------ New Monsters


---- War Wagon (Two Horses)


#newmonster 2466
#spr1 "./Warhammer Empire/War Wagon.tga"
#spr2 "./Warhammer Empire/War Wagon.tga"
#name "War Wagon"
#descr "The War Wagon is effectively an advanced chariot manned by several crewmen who are armed with a variety of lethal weapons devised in the Academies of Nuln. These may include repeater crossbows, Hochland arbalests, hook-halberds, ball-and-chain polearms, mancatchers and other exotic designs. Drawn by two powerful warhorses, the War Wagon will advance, unloading its ranged weapons as it draws close to the enemy, before ploughing through their ranks with the crew using their polearms to strike at foes on all sides."
#hp 12
#size 5
#prot 5
#mor 13
#mr 10
#enc 1
#str 10
#att 10
#def 10
#prec 11
#mapmove 2
#ap 18
#trample
#heal
#gcost 150
#rcost 100
#armor "Wagon Cover"
#weapon 680
#weapon 681
#weapon 682
#weapon 684
#secondshape 2467
#end



---- War Wagon (One Horse)


#newmonster 2467
#spr1 "./Warhammer Empire/War Wagon.tga"
#spr2 "./Warhammer Empire/War Wagon.tga"
#name "War Wagon"
#descr "The War Wagon is effectively an advanced chariot manned by several crewmen who are armed with a variety of lethal weapons devised in the Academies of Nuln. These may include repeater crossbows, Hochland arbalests, hook-halberds, ball-and-chain polearms, mancatchers and other exotic designs. Drawn by two powerful warhorses, the War Wagon will advance, unloading its ranged weapons as it draws close to the enemy, before ploughing through their ranks with the crew using their polearms to strike at foes on all sides."
#hp 12
#size 5
#prot 8
#mor 13
#mr 10
#enc 3
#str 10
#att 10
#def 9
#prec 11
#mapmove 2
#ap 14
#trample
#heal
#gcost 150
#rcost 100
#armor "Wagon Cover"
#weapon 682
#weapon 684
#secondshape 2468
#firstshape 2466
#end


---- War Wagon (Immobile)


#newmonster 2468
#spr1 "./Warhammer Empire/War Wagon Immobile.tga"
#spr2 "./Warhammer Empire/War Wagon Immobile.tga"
#name "Immobilised War Wagon"
#descr "The War Wagon is effectively an advanced chariot manned by several crewmen who are armed with a variety of lethal weapons devised in the Academies of Nuln. These may include repeater crossbows, Hochland arbalests, hook-halberds, ball-and-chain polearms, mancatchers and other exotic designs. Drawn by two powerful warhorses, the War Wagon will advance, unloading its ranged weapons as it draws close to the enemy, before ploughing through their ranks with the crew using their polearms to strike at foes on all sides."
#hp 24
#size 4
#prot 14
#mor 13
#mr 10
#enc 3
#str 10
#att 10
#def 8
#prec 12
#mapmove 0
#ap 2
#immobile
#heal
#gcost 150
#rcost 100
#armor "Wagon Cover"
#weapon 683
#weapon 685
#weapon 686
#weapon 687
#firstshape 2466
#end


Ignore stuff like the sprite code and costs and whatnot, as I said, just for testing. Basically the War Wagon fires at long range, then medium, then short, then tramples, then finally sits there and fights/shoots.