Epotara / Late Era Scenario Posted
 

Hello:

This is a wrap-around map containing 292 land provinces and 16 sea provinces. Rivers are impassible except by bridge. All provinces along rivers and by the two lakes have potential fresh water sites, except provinces that contain waste. Provinces with towns are large provinces. There are no provinces with special sites.

Feel free to let me know if you find any errors or otherwise have comments, etc.

Thanks.

Pasha

[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cake.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/PointRight.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/PointRight.gif[/img] *** SEE LATER DOWN THE THREAD FOR THE LATE ERA SCENARIO. (Look for the dawg bones.) ***

Re: New Map ===> Epotara
 

Here is a small jpeg of the map. (It looks best in wrap-around vision. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif )

Pasha


http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...ra%20Small.jpg

Re: New Map ===> Epotara
 

I really like how the different terrain types are very clear. It's a bit too big for my tastes though.

Any chance you could cut it in half (across the middle, just below the coast) and give us two more 150ish prov sized maps?

Re: New Map ===> Epotara
 

Hi Sombre:

That's a good idea to slice up the map... but I need a breather first. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Yes, I think it is helpful when terrain is clearly marked if possible.

Pasha

Re: New Map ===> Epotara
 

I agree with sombre, too big. But still a good map!

Big Map for Big Boys!
 

Hmm. I think it's a good size for a game with 15 players, especially with a victory condition like controlling 4 or 5 other player capitals. That usually prevents the game from going much past turn 70 or 80.

However, perhaps, I will make another version with the same map, but redo all of the province boundaries to drastically reduce the number of provinces. (That's the good thing about layers in GIMP. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ) Maybe get it down to 150 -200 provinces.

Pasha

Re: Big Map for Big Boys!
 

I have already started tweaking the province boundaries for a smaller version. It should be pretty easy to get the number of provinces down to about 175. Thanks for the suggestions.

Re: Big Map for Big Boys!
 

It's nice you've made a big version first, as the AI often needs some space to start being efficent. On small maps it is too easy to make a quick rush to the nearest AI capitol.
I'll play this one with pleasure, big maps are so rare !

Re: Big Map for Big Boys!
 

looks nice. I really like the simple style and obvious terrain types of your maps PashaDawg.

Can I ask how long it takes to make just the graphical part of this map? (not the province connections, etc.)

Re: Big Map for Big Boys!
 

I for one like big maps! However, this map I consider normal size. Big maps are 500+ provinces.

This is a similar size to many all era MP games I have played in, 20'ish nations. It will give 15 provinces per player.

Thanks for this Pasha, downloading now.

Re: Big Map for Big Boys!
 

I totally agree with Meglobob's each and every word.

Thanks Pasha for the map.

Re: Big Map for Big Boys!
 

Good job!

I like how you used the Cave provinces to create the impassable terrains. The interconnections between the Caves also act as alternative paths/chokepoints to other provinces.

I do not see any "province with towns" though.

Re: Big Map for Big Boys!
 

Nevermind, i guess the provinces with extra dots are the ones with the cities... I was expecting more of city icon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Big Map for Big Boys!
 

Thanks for the comments. I am looking forward to playing on the map in a big game. It would be fun to see Late Marignon, Midgard and Atlantis duke it out sailing around the ocean! Abysia and the Giants could have fun in the mountains, while Agartha has a lot of caves to dominate. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Ryo_akashi: Thanks. Yeah, the cities are sort of like a high-up google map views of the cities. You can see the individual buildings. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Zylithan: I did not keep good track of my time. I would guess that it took about 20 hours to draw the map, but that included making several changes to the initial draft. Drawing the borders took a lot of time, and I wanted to scream when placing the little white dots in each province. The original GIMP file is high resolution, so the white dots were very small, and they blended in with the light green map. I scaled the rgb file down a bit so that it would not be too big megabyte-wise.

Re: Big Map for Big Boys!
 

You should do all the dots in a colour like 254 1 2 then just do a colour exchange at the end turning 254 1 2 into 255 255 255. That way you can see them easily.

Re: Big Map for Big Boys!
 

That sounds like a good idea, but I am new to GIMP. How do you do such a color exchange? (What I ended up doing was creating an extra layer that was dark purple that was later deleted.)

Re: Big Map for Big Boys!
 

Pasha, have you seen LazyPerfectionist's BAG game? They are playing LA and are considering using this map.

Re: Big Map for Big Boys!
 

Yep. As well, here's the quick answer to a color exchange- there may be a more elegant way.

Under the image's main menu-
Select->None.
Under the toolbox-
Select Regions by Color (Shift-O)
Uncheck all boxs (Antialiasing, Feather Edgess, Select transparent, sample merged).
Set Threshold to zero (essential)
Click on a dot. Voila, you now have all instances of that precise color selected.

Select the Bucket Fill (Shift-B)
Defaults: Opacity (100), Mode Normal
Important: Select as the affected area "Fill whole selection" this way, you will replace all the dots at once.
Select BG color fill

Select yourself a color- I suggest setting the palette back to default with the mini palette right next to the big palette. The background white is 255 255 255.

Now click in one of those tiny little dots in your previous selection. Done.

/Lecture mode: off. Thinking: resumed.

Re: Big Map for Big Boys!
 

http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/lists/...ry/009482.html

Ah, here's the more elegant method.

EDIT:
I originally thought provinces like 274 & 285 were broken- but it turns out I couldn't see the bridges. As a temporary measure, I suggest doubling or tripling the width of those bright pink bridges. Someone probably has a bridge graphic around you can use.

Re: Big Map for Big Boys!
 

Hi L.P.!

Thanks for the help with GIMP. How exciting that someone might be planning to play on the new map. Let me know if you find any faulty provinces. I tried pretty hard to do them right.

Province 274 is very isolated due to the river. I believe I made it a no-start province.

You can't see the pink bridges? Maybe you zoom out a lot farther than I usually do? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I thought they popped right out due to the color. If you zoom in and follow the rivers, you can find them pretty quickly. Once you know where they are, they are easy to spot. Did you need me to make them thicker for your game?

Pasha

Re: Big Map for Big Boys!
 

I heard this map was made by Burnsaber, and I just wanted to say I thought it was pretty low for PashaDawg to pretend he made it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Big Map for Big Boys!
 

The map seems to get the scales bug alot. 3 out of 3 water nations got it, I kept restarting.

Also it loves starting the 1 water nation in the topmost of those 3 water provinces seperated from the main ocean. Also the nations starting on the islands have a huge disadvantage if there is 1 or 2 water nations.

The pink bridges are obvious to me and the towns.

Re: Big Map for Big Boys!
 

Har har. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Big Map for Big Boys!
 

Hi Meglobob:

Thanks for the comments.

Does the scale bug have anything to do with the map vs. the game itself? I know it happens primarily (if only) to water nations.

I designed the map with the intent to create a scenario for late age, where the nations would have defined starting spots. For example, two sailing nations were expected to start on large islands in the sea. Agartha would start in the cave with two outside entrances, etc. R'lyeh and Ermor were to be excluded, and so, no true water nations would start on the map (Late Age Atlantis starts above ground). I still plan to do that but it might need to wait until late October after my trip.

Pasha

Re: Big Map for Big Boys!
 

Hey PashaDawg, thanks for the map. It was just the right size to keep me from spending forever fixing a random map.

It's pretty neat to- I didn't notice it the first time I looked at it, but there's all those cleverly worked into the map cave provinces, as well. I'm dying to see what strategies that forms.

If we have an open slot, are there any nations you would be interested in playing?

Re: Big Map for Big Boys!
 

Hi L.P.:

Thanks. I hope the map is fun to play on!

I am not joining any new games right now, because I am preparing to leave town for a few weeks.

Pasha

Too many mountains?
 

Hi Ho:

A friend suggested to me that the major mountain range might be a bit too big because it is hard to cross. My goal was to see what such a large mountain range would be like, create a meaningful barrier, and make mountain survival a definite advantage sometimes.

Have any other folks found the mountain range to be too big?

Pasha

Re: Too many mountains?
 

Well, it's kinda painful when random number generator puts your non-mountain survival nation's capital right in the middle of it ;P

Re: Too many mountains?
 

That's true. The map was originally intended for a scenario, where the starting positions would be defined. I am still planning on that after I finish my holiday.

Re: Too many mountains?
 

Just remember Abyssia is not a mountain nation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Too many mountains?
 

Really? I don't have the game with me on holiday, but I thought Middle Era Abysia had mountain survival. Maybe they just have waste survival, and I recall incorrectly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Too many mountains?
 

It is waste survival.

Re: Too similar terrain?
 

Your terrain may be to homogeneous.

As a starting position, I got the province 288. I'm surrounded by forests, mountains, and wastelands. I don't have many options for gold.

It may be a matter of opinion, but it'd be nice if the terrain was broken up a little more.

That said, haven't seen any actual problems with the map, especially considering we crammed it so full. I am curious what's the intention behind the "border mountains" in the area?

When the scenario comes out, I'll look forward to it.

Re: Too similar terrain?
 

This is a problem in general.. it's hard to make a map look pretty and natural without making it homogeneous. Something I have noticed in making maps. But its important, right...

Re: Too similar terrain?
 

Hi LP & Zylithan:

Thank you for your comments.

When I was originally designing the map, I was worried that the mountain range would be too big. However, a good friend recommended that I go for it anyway to create a map that presented a new "challenge". Also, the map was designed for a scenario that would not really have players starting in the middle of the mountains (except maybe the Giants & Agartha). The mountains were intended to create a bit of a barrier.

Province 288 was certainly never intended as a starting spot, although the mountains and large waste area was intended as the home of Abysia. The mountain pass through 299 was intended to break up the mountains a little, but I wanted it a bit difficult. It has waste on one side and swamp on the other. The City at 299 was intended to be a bit of a Shangra-La, if you will.

Border mountains were intended to create the resource situation of mountains but without the movement restrictions.

I enjoyed creating the map, but it might not work perfectly for random nation placement. I still plan to create the scenario, plus a version that will have much fewer provinces (maybe 150). Also, with future map making, I will take care to keep the layers in GIMP longer (even when doing the pain-in-the-butt wraparound work), so that I can more easily make changes later.

If you have ideas of where nations should start in a late era scenario (and maybe a middle era, too), let me know. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Pasha

Re: Too similar terrain?
 

Can I request an update to the Threelake map, using the map making techniques from this map?

Specifically, the farmlands, wastelands and forests from this map looks much better as compared to Threelake. I won't mind the mountains too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Too similar terrain?
 

Hi Ryo-Akashi:

Happily, I still have the GIMP file with all of the layers intact. So, it should not be too difficult to make the Threelake map look a bit more sassy and stylish. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Pasha

Late Era Scenario
 

[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Dogbone.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Dogbone.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Dogbone.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Dogbone.gif[/img]http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Dogbone.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Dogbone.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Dogbone.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Dogbone.gif[/img]

Hello:

Here is a late era scenario that I set up. It includes all nations, except Ermor & R'lyeh. All it does is include predefined starting positions, but it prevents the AI from putting all players in funky spots on the map.

Be sure to remove the .txt at the end of the file name.

Pasha

[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Dagger.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Dagger.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Dagger.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Dagger.gif[/img]http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Dagger.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Dagger.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Dagger.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Dagger.gif[/img]

Re: Late Era Scenario
 

Sound cool. Questions for you:

1. Do you have a concept of balance? It would be good to know, even if it isn't, who has it easier and harder, etc.. like Dawn of Dominions.

2. Would you have any interest in making in specifically imbalanced to enhance SP play. For example, make a scenario version where the player is supposed to be... LA Ulm for example, and specifically make tweaks to map balance r starting provinces, etc.

I'll check this out once I have more time... Just throwing these two out there as things that could give this map even more awesomeness, without requiring much work (drawing the map, white dots, neighbors is harder... so once its done, why not make multiple versions, etc.)

Re: Late Era Scenario
 

Hi Zylithan:

I had a few goals in mind with this scenario:

1. No two capitals should be within 2 provinces of each other, except perhaps, by use of sailing. Many are within 3 provinces of each other. It's a big map, but there are 17 capitals, and the mountains limited the number of good staring spots.

2. Keep most nations out of the big mountain range.

3. If I nation had sailing, forest survival, mountain survival, waste survival, etc., then I tried to put that nation near those kinds of terrain, etc., so they could be used.

I am not sure that some positions are specifically easier than others. I think each nation has a unique geographic challenge on the map. Agartha starts deep in the caves, which could present an income challenge. Atlantis is isolated by mountains but can sail and is aquatic, etc.

It would be fun to create a SP scenario that is more involved. I will think about doing one.

Pasha

Re: Late Era Scenario
 

A more involved SP map would be great!

Re: Late Era Scenario
 

It would be interesting to play this map again as Agartha, and see if I get roughly the same results.

With some manual searching, random events (free random mine? wow!), and just plain level-0 sites, I got 340 free gold income.

Out of thirteen provinces conquered, I have 7 gold producing sites. Some had to be searched for, but that was no problem.

I think it has to do with the number of sites available in caves. While above ground i might get a very wealthy Gold Mine (100 gold), I may only get a Deposit (60 gold) underground, but I'm not competing with many other sites, and get a lot more?

Oh, yes, Edi did say something in the bug shortlist about sitemasks and "any terrain" not including caves.

I think it works out nicely for this map, though.