Help - I\'ve fallen and I can\'t get up!
 

Ok, I've got to be missing something here. I am in the middle of a test of the latest tweaks to the Rage AI and have encountered the most baffling behaviour that I have seen yet.

An enemy colonizer ran afoul of a small Rage mine field. All that was left of it was the colonization module and crew quarters. It is sitting on the warp point in a Rage system and can't move. There are 30 (yes 30!) Rage attack ships and carriers that want to leave the system through that warp point. For I don't know how many turns now, those 30 ships have been going up next to that colonizer, dancing back and forth until they are low on suppies, then returning to the resupply base in that system, only to repeat the process. Over. And over. And over. (You get the picture.)

Somebody please tell me that there is some switch to turn on that will allow the attack ships to attack an enemy non-combatant (or whatever it is that is keeping them from attacking it.) I have noticed that the Rage will typically not attack lone colonizers unless they stumble upon them going through a warp point. Is it because they don't consider them threats that they leave them alone? It is extremely frustrating to watch a single crippled colonizer pin down a major battle fleet without firing a shot.

Incidentally, I am running SEIV v1.41 with TDM Modpack 1.75.

Re: Help - I\'ve fallen and I can\'t get up!
 

I too have seen this behavior before. It was while I was testing my StarWars AI (patch 1.3 and 1.35). There was ONE satt on a warp point, left over from a sat layer getting destoyed in combat, fleets 'danced' around it for turns and turns. Could not understand why, finally had to take manual control and just nuke it. Maybe there is a button under Empire Options and the Ministers etc but how do you turn these off/on for an AI?? Heck there may not even be a button, but surely a fleet of warships could figure out that one lone satt does not pose a threat!

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"The Empress took your name away," said Chance.
Owen smiled coldly. "It wasn't hers to take. I'm a Deathstalker until I die. And we never forget a slight or an enemy." -Owen Deathstalker.

Re: Help - I\'ve fallen and I can\'t get up!
 

In ship design change the strategy of all ships which are don't get hurt to capture planet. If they carry no cargo and have no weapons then it should not affect their behavior in strategic. If they carry weapons then they might come in harms way though. Furthermore even if they can carry cargo it will not affect them unless they have troops, which changes only attacks on planets, not warp points. I was just looking at the strategies file a couple of days ago and comparing to AI design creation.

This is a temporary fix. If it works then never use don't get hurt, and change the design file. As a player change the ship strategy when you do a new design. I am sure this don't get hurt flaw is well understood and left unfixed due to a lack of sufficient complaints. You DO HAVE a don't get hurt ship in the fleet, don't you ?

Re: Help - I\'ve fallen and I can\'t get up!
 

This is a problem when a ship/fleet, become out of supplies... they try to reach the more nearest Resuply Base, without fight.

I think that you can't do anything to change this...

Re: Help - I\'ve fallen and I can\'t get up!
 

This has nothing to do with either the "Don't get hurt" strategy or resupply. All ships are either attack ships with "Optimal weapon range" strategy or missile armed carriers (loaded with fighters) with "Maximum weapon range" strategy. They are not all in the same fleet. In fact a number of them are not in a fleet at all. There is a resupply base in the system that they are in. Ever time they get low on supplies, they go back to the resupply base. Then they return to dance in front of the warp point. They never enter the sector of the warp point to engage the colonizer in combat.

Every once in a while, some minister decides it needs one of those ships for something else and it leaves through a different warp point. Other attack ships enter the system on some appointed task and get stuck at the troublesome warp point, thus joining the dance, resupply, dance, resupply cycle. Once they are in the cycle, their standing orders are cancelled at the end of each move so I can't see what it is they think they are trying to do.

It was funny to watch for the first 20 turns or so. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Help - I\'ve fallen and I can\'t get up!
 

Sounds like you ran into the indestructable colony ship bug. Switch the structure for colony modules to 100kt.

As for how to get your fleet to attack, I have no idea...


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"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

Re: Help - I\'ve fallen and I can\'t get up!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sinapus:
Sounds like you ran into the indestructable colony ship bug. Switch the structure for colony modules to 100kt.

As for how to get your fleet to attack, I have no idea...


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know if the colony module strength is anything to worry about. I've seen plenty of colonizers die in mine fields in this game. This particular mine field was quite weak, so I am not concerned that the colonizer survived. My concern is that the AI is not using attack ships to attack it. It would seem logical to attack a colonizer of a race you are at war with, whether it is blocking your path or not. I have noticed other occasions where an enemy colonizer, out of supplies, plods along at speed 1 through a system full of Rage ships, and no one bothers to do anything about it.

Re: Help - I\'ve fallen and I can\'t get up!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
I don't know if the colony module strength is anything to worry about. I've seen plenty of colonizers die in mine fields in this game. This particular mine field was quite weak, so I am not concerned that the colonizer survived. My concern is that the AI is not using attack ships to attack it. It would seem logical to attack a colonizer of a race you are at war with, whether it is blocking your path or not. I have noticed other occasions where an enemy colonizer, out of supplies, plods along at speed 1 through a system full of Rage ships, and no one bothers to do anything about it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the mines were carrying mine warhead I's then a colony ship will survive with the colony module intact. The game treats each mine warhead as a separate combat, so the colony module never gets destroyed by mine warhead I's unless you lower the structure to 100kt. (Or just have the AI never research mines until they have explosive warheads 2 or 3... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Help - I\'ve fallen and I can\'t get up!
 

Isn't it because the ships already have orders to go through the warp point (and not attack the colony ship), but they can't go through the warp because it is blocked. Since they don't have orders to attack, they won't attack, even though that's where they want to go.

Re: Help - I\'ve fallen and I can\'t get up!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lupusman:
Isn't it because the ships already have orders to go through the warp point (and not attack the colony ship), but they can't go through the warp because it is blocked. Since they don't have orders to attack, they won't attack, even though that's where they want to go.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe you are correct, but the question is, why isn't a ship given orders to attack the colonizer? All of the ships in the group have had multiple trips back to the resupply base, and all of the ships wind up without standing orders at the end of the turn. For some reason, a minister is assigning the ships orders to do something on the other side of the warp point every turn, but never assigns any one of the many individual ships or fleets the responsibility to attack the colonizer.

I keep wondering if there is a setting in one of the AI files that says "Don't attack non-combatants" or "Don't attack non-threatening ships" but I can't figure out what that setting would be. Could it be something to do with the "Maximum Systems to Defend at a Time" setting in the AI_Settings file? It is set to 5 for the Rage, which is as high or higher than most. However, by this time (past turn 100), the Rage have many more systems than that and are at war with four different races. Perhaps this system is not considered threatened enough or strategic enough to warrant defending.

Re: Help - I\'ve fallen and I can\'t get up!
 

What happens if there is a new attack ship built in that system? Will it get orders to attack the colonizer, or will it ignore it like the others?

Re: Help - I\'ve fallen and I can\'t get up!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
&lt;snip&gt;
For some reason, a minister is assigning the ships orders to do something on the other side of the warp point every turn, but never assigns any one of the many individual ships or fleets the responsibility to attack the colonizer.

I keep wondering if there is a setting in one of the AI files that says "Don't attack non-combatants" or "Don't attack non-threatening ships" but I can't figure out what that setting would be. Could it be something to do with the "Maximum Systems to Defend at a Time" setting in the AI_Settings file? It is set to 5 for the Rage, which is as high or higher than most. However, by this time (past turn 100), the Rage have many more systems than that and are at war with four different races. Perhaps this system is not considered threatened enough or strategic enough to warrant defending.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you've almost got the answer with that Last statement. But it's not the "system" that's not threatened enough/strategic enough. It's that the crippled colony ship isn't enough of a threat to be considered an attack location. Every time your attack fleets have their orders cleared, the AI goes through the cycle of finding the 5 most important attack locations (or whatever the AI's setting is). It assigns orders to attack ships to move to those 5 locations, and ignores the crippled colonizer because it's just "not important". There ought to be a way to program the AI to notice a blocked warp point and either assign it as a highest-priority attack location or find a way around it.

Re: Help - I\'ve fallen and I can\'t get up!
 

Hmmm....

Seems like the number of systems to defend needs to be a percentage of total systems owned, or some such. This probably explains why all 10 of the AI's I'm using in this test game seem much less inclined to attack anybody now that their empires have grown fairly large. Watching them, it seems like they just keep sending their ships back and forth across their empires. Based on this discussion, it probably keeps rerouting them to different places since the perceived threats probably change with every turn.

Re: Help - I\'ve fallen and I can\'t get up!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DirectorTsaarx:
...Every time your attack fleets have their orders cleared, the AI goes through the cycle of finding the 5 most important attack locations (or whatever the AI's setting is). It assigns orders to attack ships to move to those 5 locations, and ignores the crippled colonizer because it's just "not important". There ought to be a way to program the AI to notice a blocked warp point and either assign it as a highest-priority attack location or find a way around it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or a way to have the AI recognize ANY foreign ship in a sector as a threat (whether armed or not) and send the closest ship or fleet to blow it to smithereens. (Does the AI already figure distance to the destination when assigning ships to their duties?)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AlphaKodiak:
...Based on this discussion, it probably keeps rerouting them to different places since the perceived threats probably change with every turn.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that is the case, there needs to be a way to keep the AI from switching destinations if the difference in perceived threats were small.

Example: A fleet is headed toward point A because the AI perceives a threat there. Suddenly, the AI perceives another threat at point B, and must choose whether to send this fleet to that other threat. The AI could calculate the two threats, compute this difference, and compare it to a pre-determined threshold value (probably a percentage). If the difference is less than the threshold, threat B is considered not that much more serious than threat A, and the fleet's order stand. Above the threshold, and threat B is a much bigger threat than A, and the fleet is diverted.

As I am not a modder, I have no clue if this can be added only be editing AI files or if it will take a hardcode change, or what will happen with more than one fleet and more than two threats, but maybe someone can adapt (and expand on) my line of reasoning.

Quikngruvn


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"That which does not kill you will make you stronger." -- Nietzsche

[This message has been edited by Quikngruvn (edited 13 July 2001).]

Re: Help - I\'ve fallen and I can\'t get up!
 

Under the Empire Status -&gt; Strategy -&gt; Damage section in the game.

Does the 'Damage Percent Per Ship = 80% have anything todo with your ships not bothering with the severely damaged one sitting on the warppoint?
if its set to 100% do they completely destroy all targets?

Re: Help - I\'ve fallen and I can\'t get up!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gimboid:
Under the Empire Status -&gt; Strategy -&gt; Damage section in the game.

Does the 'Damage Percent Per Ship = 80% have anything todo with your ships not bothering with the severely damaged one sitting on the warppoint?
if its set to 100% do they completely destroy all targets?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, this setting _shouldn't_ have any effect on whether a sector is considered an attack location. But it's certainly possible...

Re: Help - I\'ve fallen and I can\'t get up!
 

I tried an experiment Last night. I changed the "Maximum Systems to Defend at a Time" setting to 50 (well more than the number of systems the Rage have) and waited to see what would happen. And waited. And Waited. The only change was that the number of ships milling around the warp point slowly declined as more and more of them were sent off in different directions (presumably because the AI now had more perceived threats to defend against). But, after a good fifteen or twenty turns, there were still a dozen attack ships dancing around in front of the blocked warp point.

Perhaps Gimboid's idea has something to do with it. I'll have to do some more experimentation.

Re: Help - I\'ve fallen and I can\'t get up!
 

Far too often, I've had ships run away from a colony ship rather than attack it, because at some earlier point I had set the Do Not Attack flag for colony ships in Strategies, and forgot to change it before I ordered the attack. Did you check that setting?

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Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Re: Help - I\'ve fallen and I can\'t get up!
 

Well nothing I could do in strategies seemed to do anything. Then, a battlecruiser returning for resupply came through the warp point from the other side, stumbled into the colonizer, and vaporized it. Once in combat, there was definitely no problem with not wanting to attack a colonizer.

Interestingly, after the blockage was gone and the ships were moving off to their assignments, the Rage became aggressive again. They even attacked a colonizer that was plodding through Rage space at a speed of one, that had been ignored for at least 20 turns. It seems like the AI was so concerned about whatever it was trying to send ships to on the other side of that warp point that it was ignoring everything else going on.

Bottom line to this is, it seems like it was ignoring the colonizer blocking the warp point because something else was more important, while it couldn't get to whatever that was because the colonizer was in the way. It's almost a form of the dreaded "Deadly embrace" in software design. Two routines each hold on to something the other needs, waiting for the other to finish.