Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Evening all,

I have been toying with creating interim self propelled Flak units for my German OOB (Post entitled "Das Reich") and have hit a snag. I cannot model the Kugelblitz's turret. It is truly beyond my capabilities. I have tried using a Duster turret instead and it just looks awful. My attempts at making a Coelion and Super Coelion have turned out better but without the Kugelblitz the Mod will be alcking some decent affordable punch.

Can anyone help? I will post up my Coelions later as well as some reference photos of that damn Kugelblitz turret. Remember folks it has to fit on top of a Pz IV.

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Ok. This is for Plasmakrab.

First, the Wirbelwind Chasis, followed by some pictures of the Kugelblitz (something approaching top down) and finally containing the numerous attempts at a Coelion (yes one of those too) turret I made. Colour wise each seems a little odd to me and size wise, well you will see.

Nothing here worth downloading folks.

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Did you know that there were essentially two Panther Coelians? A 2x37mm one and a 2 x 55mm One?

Plus, there were proposals to mount a MRLS launcher on a panther chassis.

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

What about the "Super Coelian" or whatever it was called? Was it the Zwilling-55 Mark mentions or a derivate using a newer chassis, or something else still?

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

As far as I can tell it was a regular Coelian with twin 55s and a turret to accomodate them. I would put the turret on a Tiger II (Panther III) chasis.

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

The Kugelblitz turret was also proposed for installation on a Hetzer Chassis:

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/2...r38flakjn6.gif

There was also proposal for 105mm L68 gun in the Tiger II

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/8...er105mmaa7.gif

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8...coelianbm8.gif
37mm Coelian

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/622/55mmcoelianqv8.gif
55mm Coelian

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/1...aubitzeom0.gif
Panther based SPH

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/7082/gerat58qq8.gif
Open topped Flakpanzer Gerat 58

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/104...rmortarsi9.gif
A Assault Mortar based on the Panther Chassis; replacement for the Brummbar?

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/606...hermrlsmy1.gif
MRLS based on Panther

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Monty,

I might be able to help you out with this. I already have a pretty good Pz IV collection. The Kugelblitz is the one AA variant I hadn't done yet, but with the resources you have here, that shouldn't be too hard to do at all for me. All the Panther variants I can add to my set when I get to it, or I can go about and knock the Panther set out. Here is my newest Panzer IV set to date, that I'll base it from.

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Ok, here is what I came up for ya real quick like.

If you like it, I'll get the workable files out to you.

Enjoy!

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Hello oragus,

I would indeed appreciate it if you could produce a few vehicles for me. Right now I am swamped with OOB work and integrating various other SHPs. I am trying to cut down the number of SHP files that my mod uses so I am having to replace a lot of stuff.

Plasmakrab has already produced a kugelblitz and a Coelian. I will await further instructions from him as to whether he is happy to call it a day with them or if he wants to produce some more. He mentioned something about making some chasis too or if not that then trying harder to integrate the turrets with the chasis.

Your Kugelblitz looks good but It is a little too dark in colour. If you could produce it in a tan/desert colour (with the turret seperate from the chasis) then I can use it for my colonial campaigns as well. Infact thinking about it a winter one would not go amiss either.

As you know my mod covers a lot of time and I am always trying to find decent interim equipment. A Kugelblitz 2 mounted on the same chasis that Mark (Mark Sheppard) posted on page 4 of my "Das Reich" post. This version could then replace the earlier one. Guns could stay the same size as well.

When you have made those panthers I would love to have your Super Coelian and the MLRS as well. If there is one thing my German OOBS are lacking it is decent rocket artillery.

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

No problem, that color I used for that is the color I use for Germany's base coat in 1943. I also have a "lighter" version that I call desert. So here it is in that color and I put it in winter as well for ya. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I can't seem to find the references about the Kugelblitz 2?

Enjoy!

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

There are none, It is a late 50s to late 60s interim medium Flak tank.

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Nice work btw.

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Thank you, glad you like them.

I have a ton of WWII German stuff laying around. So it was no big deal. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Here's the complete set based on the official hulls. If you or Joe want to tweak them up to the new Panzer icons, no prob.
Otherwise I guess you can get some use out of them until Joe gets his new Pz.IV set public. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Sorry, didn't mean to step on any toes here. Since I know Plasma isn't much into WWII stuff and all, I thought I would offer some assistance. Sorry about that Plasma.

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

No problem http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
I know I don't do WW2 stuff, but this one's a what-if, so I guess I'm allowed to http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif
Actually your turret stands out quite better IMO, and there's the benefit of the new hull. It's up to Monty which one he'll use, though I guess you'll include the Kugelblitz in your Pz.IV series, right?
Anyhow I still have the Coelian that should see some use, so my toes feel all right, thank you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Hello again eveyone.

Plasmakrab's Coelian's will see extensive use indeed. BTW how is my Kugelblitz II coming on? Any ETA on the Panther variants? Great work so far from both Oragus and Plasma. One thing though. Oragus,your PzIVs seem a bit smaller than the official set. If I am to use your icons I will need to evaluate all of your PZ IV icons (Hs and Js included) otherwise the Kugelblitz will look out of place. Will you take a look at Plasmas and see what you think. Please PM me asap. Thanks to both of you.

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

As far as the scale goes Monty, here is a thread about that exact case.

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...o=&fpart=1

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Plasma, probably. lol

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

How about this?

Link

This was the Sdkfz 251/17 Ausf D, with a compact 20mm mount. It sounds like it could serve as an excellent makeshift APC/MICV in the late 1940s, early 1950s...

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Got something better than that, quite similar though. Thanks for the suggestion though. Might see some use.

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

I don't actually have that one done up Mark. I have pretty much all the other standard ones though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

If some of you WW2 buffs are interested, I stumbled across this yesterday.
There's a number of SdKfz-251 variants with unusual weaponry, most of which mustn't have been produced. (scroll down below the Star Wars blueprints, and that was not what I was looking for either!) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Hey now plasma, I wanna see an AT-AT icon! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

You bet! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

I actually did an AT-AT icon series once... I'm not on my main computer but when I get on it, I'll post it up

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

http://home.comcast.net/~mksheppard/Scrap/SWIcons.gif

We got the Various Starfighters on left; AT-ST icons, then Floating Fortress Icon, Below that, S-1 Firehawke Repulsor Tank Icons, Then AT-AT icons

Plus a whole idea of Infantry icons I tried.

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Very good, very good indeed. Its amazing what can be achieved using Steel Panthers. If you like I could post up some of my W40K stuff. I am working on a mod featuring all that. The ground work was done by troopie ages ago. I took it over, created a load of OOBs and new icons. I will post some pics up.

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Go ahead. I think I still ahve the original 40k mod. If you want I can hex edit the EXE and modify the flags so that instead of "Britain" we have "Marines"

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

You can edit the game code so that the names come out correctly. Excellent. I have been looking for someone who could do that for ages. PM me about it asap please. Flags and so forth I have already done.

In game right now I have, on the Imperial side:
#The Ultramarines.
#The Death Korps of Krieg + Steel Legion.
#The Mordian Iron Guard.
#The Tallarn Dessert Raiders.
#The Cadians + Steel Legion.
#The Praetorians.
#The Catachan Jungle Fighters.
#The Elysians (I believe they are attached to one of the other OOBs).

I also have:
#Orks (almost complete - pending addition of some more armour). New infantry Shps.
#Forces of Chaos (Marines, Cultists, Traitor Guard etc).
#Necrons (skeleton OOB, no pun intended).
#Tau (Needs more work).
#Tyranids (Needs more work).
#Eldar (Needs a little more work).
#Dark Eldar (Sparse, not much to work with).

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Mark,

Do you have any other views of all these Panther mods you submitted?

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Unfortunately no

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

What do you need Oragus, perhaps I can help...

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Just trying to get more views of the Panther mods to make icons for them. For example, the 105mm variant, it an open topped turret, the MLRS, can't tell how wide the rack is, the Super Coelian has no top details? Just trying to fill in the blanks with data, before I have to fill it in by ear.

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Here's a top turret look at the Super Coelian:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~cromwell/CK49-1.jpg

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

That is a King Tiger hull. But it gives a good view of the top of the turret. I am curious how they got that turret on the Panther hull, considering the King Tiger hull has a much larger turret ring? Don't really matter though....lol

Thanks for the pic Mark

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Super Coelian would be better off on a Kingtiger (Panther II) chasis, don't you think?

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

King Tiger, no....tooo slow for an AA vehicle. Panther II, probably, but its turret ring would be too small also.. From what I have read on the Panther II, it was not designed to carry an 88mm. It was to carry the 75L100 gun. The Panther II would have been faster than the King Tiger but slower than the Panther because of the added weight from the armor they added to it. Supposedly the Panther II was larger, but by looks of the hull at the Patton Armor museum, by naked eye it don't seem like it. I haven't actually seen any of the specs on the hull any where, any one have those? Or detailed drawings maybe...hint...hint...Mark..? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Panther II or Panther F? I always thought the Panther II was bigger.

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Panther II. The Panther F was basically a Panther G Late model with the new turret. The Panther II was a "redesigned" hull with extra armor. I have seen the Panther II hull at the Patton Armor Museum first hand and it don't look any bigger, but every thing I have read says its bigger. Hence the request for anyone on here that might have dug up some specs for it, would be appreciated. It was Germany's attempt at actually having some cross plateform commonalities. The King Tiger and Panther II were to share as many parts as possible. Mainly the suppension was used from the King Tiger and other internal parts.

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

I just went and stuck a Panther two turret on a Kingtiger chasis. matched them up and away they went. It works quite well. Not very imaginative I know but, what the hey.

Auf Deutsch:

Bewaffnung/Armament: 7,5 cm Kw.K. (L/70) oder 88 mm KwK 43 L/71 1 - 7,92 mm M.G. 42, 1 - 7,92 mm M.G. 34
Panzerung/Armour: 100 mm vorne, 60 mm seitlich, 40 mm hinten
Gewicht/Weight: 53 Tonnen
Motor/Power Plant: Maybach HL230 (Drosselleistung 600 PS, konstruktiv 700 PS)
Geschwindigkeit/Speed: 46 km/h
Besatzung/Crew compliment: 5 Mann
Baujahr/Year of Construction: 1943

"Die Panzerung sollte auf eine 100 mm (120 mm) starke Frontalpanzerung (frontlarmour at 100-120mm) und eine 60 mm-Seitenpanzerung erhöht werden (60mm side armour); auch sah man eine Überarbeitung des Chassis vor. Parallel mit der 1943 begonnenen Entwicklung des Tigers II wurde mit der Planung des Panther II angefangen (Tiger II and Panther II begun at same time). Auch hier sollten die Komponenten wie Lenkgetriebe (steering gears), Vorgelege (transmission), Laufrollen (Cam rollers/runners etc), Aufhängung (suspension) und Antrieb (drive train) untereinander austauschbar sein (used by both models), um Ersatzteilproduktion und Reparatur zu vereinfachen. Das Gesamtgewicht stieg durch die zahlreichen Modifikationen auf über 50 Tonnen (weight increase due to modifications up to and over 50 tonnes)."

Source: Wikipedia.de

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

I can't speak or read German Monty, a little help with a translation would be appreciated.

Well, I can tell you this, there is a King Tiger right in front of the Panther II hull at the Patton Armor Museum and they are not the same or even remotely close to the same, other than the road wheels are the same. The Panther II hull looks extremely similar to the late Panther G model hull. I didn't get a look at the back deck though to see if there were differences there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif. But everything from the ground level looks the same. So if you are going for something accurate, mounting a Panther II turret to a King Tiger hull is not accurate.

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

PANTHER II
-----------------------------------------------------------
During summer 1942, even as MAN began manufacturing its two Versuchs Panther pre-production tanks, the High Command had already grown concerned that the level of protection the new tank possessed might prove insufficient for the combat conditions likely to emerge on the Eastern Front in the immediate future. The initial German response was to investigate the feasibility of adding 20mm-thick bolt-on armoured plates to strengthen the vehicle's protection, as had been done previously with the Panzer III and IV tanks. However, MAN soon discovered that such work presented extraordinary technical problems that effectively precluded up-armouring the existing Model D design in this manner.
This setback forced the Germans in December 1942 to begin thinking of a new Panther version - the 47-tonne Panther II - that had thicker homogenous armoured plates. The Panther II was to have 100-150mm-thick turret and hull frontal armour instead of the 80-100mm thickness on the Model D. In addition, its side armour was to have 60mm-thick plates instead of the 40mm plates carried by the Model D. Controversy still exists today as to the precise details of the Panther II project, in part because there remains ambiguity in the extant German documentation. Tom Jentz has argued that in December 1942 the Panther II design remained identical to that of the Model D except for the thickness of the armour. Walther Spielberger, in contrast, believes that from its very inception the Germans intended the Panther II to incorporate significant features that would distinguish it markedly from the Model D.
Jentz argues that it was only during mid-February 1943 that the Germans altered the initial Panther II design to make it more than just an up-armoured Model D. For now, the High Command decided that the new tank would incorporate many features of the Panzerkampfwagen
VI Model B King Tiger heavy tank then being designed by Henschel, as well as have a completely new turret design. Spielberger, however, believes that commonality with the King Tiger was a key inspiration behind the Panther II design from its first inception in late 1942. Irrespective of these debates, both scholars agree that by spring 1943 the Panther II design incorporated features of the King Tiger, including the 700bhp Maybach HL230 engine, and resilient steel-tyred, rubber-cushioned, large road wheels. While the King Tiger would mount nine pairs of these road wheels, the Panther II would have seven pairs of identical wheels. The original Panther, in contrast, had eight pairs of non-steel-tyred road wheels. Even the 60cm-thick tracks of the Panther II would act as the narrow (transportation) tracks for the King Tiger. Incorporation of these features raised the weight of the Panther II to , 51 tonnes. During February 1943, the High Command contracted DEMAG to commence development work on the Panther II, then slated to enter service in September 1943, and simultaneously informed the existing Panther manufacturing firms that they would continue producing standard Panther tanks only until late 1944, and then switch over to construction of the Panther II.
The health of the Panther II project, however, declined significantly during summer 1943, and in June plans to develop the tank were temporarily halted in favour of continuation of the Model D and Model A production runs. One explanation for this was that the Germans had discovered that by adding Schurzen side skirts to the Model D, the risk posed to the vehicle's 40mm hull side armour was significantly reduced; this development undermined a major justification for developing the Panther II. Consequently, during July 1943, the High Command contracted MAN to produce just two prototype Panther II vehicles. With the impetus for the Panther II project dwindling, and given the many other pressing production demands MAN then faced, development work on the two prototype Panther II tanks languished. Indeed, by the end of the war, MAN had only completed one Versuchs Panther II chassis, but without a turret. The American Army captured this vehicle in the last weeks of the war, fitted it with a recently completed Panther Model G turret, and shipped it off to America, where it remains today on public display.
The turret the Germans earmarked for the Panther II never got beyond the design stage, and today controversy still exists over the precise form it would have taken. Initially the Germans planned to mount in the Panther II the same 7.5cm KwK 42 L/70 gun mounted on the standard Panther tank. Spielberger argues that the Germans intended to mount this gun in the Narrow Turret (Schmalturm) then being developed for the new Model F Panther tank. Jentz, however, argues that the Germans intended to mount a slightly different turret in the Panther II - the Narrow Gun Mantlet Turret. Whatever their precise designs, both turrets sought to reduce the size of the turret front and mantlet, to help increase vehicle survivability. To further complicate the matter, during February 1945 the Germans began work to re-arm a modified version of the Narrow Turret with the 8.8cm KwK 43 L/71 gun of the King Tiger. From this Spielberger contends that if the Germans intended to mount the Narrow Turret in the Panther II, it follows that from spring 1945 they planned that the Panther II would mount the 8.8cm-gunned Narrow Turret and not its original 7.5cm-gunned version. Other plans that the Germans developed later in 1945, however, suggest that they simply intended to mount the 8.8cm-equipped Narrow Turret on any available Model G Panther chassis, to form (in effect) an upgunned version of the Model F Panther. Clearly, in the chaos that increasingly engulfed the Reich in the last months of the war, the Germans unveiled all sorts of often contradictory plans concerning future tank development. Given that German firms never completed a single Panther II tank, it seems unlikely that these controversies over what turret and main gun the vehicle would have mounted will ever be definitely solved.

"PzKw V Panther Medium Tank 1942 - 45", Dr Stephen A Hart, Osprey Publishing, pages 17 - 20.

Your translation to all that is as good as mine. All my personal knowledge on it is I have seen and some where have pics of the Panther II hull that is here in America. This particular source talks of the 8.8cm being mounted, others which I have read say the turret ring was too small for such a mounting. So again, your translation is as good as mine.

Either way, it don't really matter, there was only one hull built the rest is speculation and interpretation.

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

I found the pic of it at the museum.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/2...tonarmonn9.png

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Look carefully and you will see that all the important info has been translated (it is in brackets like this). The tank at the Patton museum is a prototype tank isn't it? It is more than likely that the tank there is unfinished, hence the turret looking the way it does. The gun on the Panther II was supposed to be mounted in a Schmallturm and was not meant to have the muzzle on the end of it. Just a plain barrel. For all we know the Americans might very well have captured a Panther F and thought it was a new model. Mind you I'd still like to know where their turret ended up.

How much does the regular Panther weigh? This one weighs over 50 tonnes. How can the drive train, transmission, road wheels, suspension etc be the same if the tank is smaller or basically the same as the original Panther series? If everyone (well most everyone) choses to model it like that then that is how it should be modelled.

Yep, Panzerlexikon.de states that the Prototype the Amis captured was unfinished. It also states that the original model from 1943 was continually developed and improved durng the course of the war. What is needed is accurate information about the projected design from 1945. It also states that the one captured by the Amis was definatley missing the turret, hence the Panther G turret.

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

Well, just pick the optimal loadout then. The Schmalturm (Schmalturm by the way means small turret)developed by Mercedes Benz was smaller anyway. Shorten the tiger II hull a little bit and decrease the gradient at the front a little (last part only when necessary). As for the rear of the tank, well I see no reason why you can't just use the Tiger II layout.

Re: Kugelblitz and Company.
 

You can tell the susupension is not of the Ausf F type. Not enough road wheels to be of Ausf F type. The Ausf F type had the same configuration as the Ausf G model, which had 8 sets of road wheels, with the exception they were using all steel road wheels, which the Ausf G Late models were using as well. The picture clearly shows 7 sets.

You are absolutely correct, it was to have the "narrow" turret mounted. None were finished. Yep the American installed a Panther Ausf G Late model turret on it. I know that a few of the "narrow" turrets ended up in Britian for testing. It would have been very cool to see the Brits send one of them over to us after their test so we could mate it up with the Panther II hull. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

44.29 tons(45,500kg). Well, the drive train, transmission, road wheels, suspension, etc, were all a more heavy duty build. They were built for the King Tiger, a 70+ ton vehicle. Plus, you have to consider all the extra weight from the added armor all the way around. It adds up in a hurry with some thing so large. I agree with you that its probably bigger, but not by much. IE why I was asking for specs earlier. When I say bigger I am referring to a matter a inches longer, it will be a small dimensional difference, no doubt about that, but not the difference between the Panther G and King Tiger.

Panther Ausf G length: 22'6"
width: 11'2"
King Tiger length: 23' 9"
width: 12' 3"

For the record. I am just gabbin here, enjoying the debate. I don't get to do this often. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Just goes to show ya how much detail I try to put into my work....lol. I know I know, crazy....LOL.