Early Expansion Question
 

For Multi-player, what is a good amount of provinces to have at the beginging of the second year, after 12 turns?

7 Provinces? 10 Provinces? 14 Provinces?

This is without an expansion pretender or dual/triple bless.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

Totally depends on how your start is/what nation/strategy etc you are aiming for. As a rule of thumb, I discard any strategy that don't give me atleast 10 provinces at turn 10. So I guess the answer to your question is 12+ is an acceptable number of provinces at that point. With some nation you can look at 25+ if you are doing good.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

Yea, I agree completely with Evilhomer.

You should look to take a minium of 1/per turn in your 1st year. Anymore is a bonus.

There are some exceptions, such as Caelum with its mammoths and any nation with elephants. Those should look to expand at least twice as fast, ie 24'ish provinces by turn 12.

When taking a dual bless or starting with a awake combat pretender you should look for similar number of provinces ie...24 by turn 12.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

It depends on where on map you are, how many provinces per player on map, and how soon you want to fight. And of course, on graphs on/off :-)

If you are in middle of map, with six neighbors, and have three times as much provinces, because of a super fighting non-flying pretender... you may be in trouble.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

I'm partial to always expanding as fast as possible and usually base my strategy/build around taking 2/turn by turn 4 and hopefully 3/turn by turn 7.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

Do you guys normally take a province on the first turn before seeing what's there? If you lost that would pretty much be a death sentence in MP wouldn't it? I only ask because one time the province next to my capital happened to have 3 dark vines and 3 bloodhenge druids along with 50 chaff, and blindly walking into that would be a very bad start.

I know it's very nation specific, but I don't see how some nations can support expansion like that. MA C'tis for example has relatively underpowered national units and a bless strategy isn't viable there. What kind of expansion technique would work for them? I normally recruit the elite lizard warriors, but I lose a few every battle and eventually I have to combine two armies into one. I've never been able to expand quickly with nations like that.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

Typically I won't attack on the first turn unless I have an awesome, unbeatable pretender. You are right in that losing your inital army or *gasp* your pretender is very bad on turn 1.

This is just personal preference on my part - I'm sure others disagree - but if the nation sucks (no bless - no easy way to quickly expand) in the early game I'll almost always take a pretender that can help with the expansion.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

Ok, so my Patala strategy is a little slow. This is bad because someone is going to be really mad if you take a province they have claimed, even if you can just slaughter their army. Need to claim quickly. Ok.

It kind of looks like, on a 15 province per person map, that by the end of the first year you are going to have contact on all fronts?

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

Usually - yep.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

How do players maintain an expansion rate of 2+ provinces per turn early in the game? With the initial limitations of resources and gold, I typically don't have what I consider a reasonable beginning army until turn 3 or so. Plus, I often recruit a leader suitable for prophethood on turn one, raise him on turn two, and then he's ready to go with my first army on turn three. At that point you have no other troops and it will take another 3-5 turns to get a second force big enough to attack indies.

Bottom line, I don't see how you can have 12+ provinces on turn 12 without an awake SC pretender, or elephants.

Here's a related question. How would MA Shinumaya have the most provinces, about 7 turns into a giant MP game? Aren't their basic goblin troops just fast dying chaff? Isn't that too early to have their good summoned troops going?

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

See I usually base most of my pretneder/design around surviving and thriving in the early game. So if my nation doesn't have great troops like elephants or I'm not going the strong bless route I'll usually take an awake pretender. Another plan is to take advantage of any good mercs out there. One way or another I'll be able to expand fast http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif.

In exchange for this I usually have below average scales (but never really horrible ones). And sometimes due to bad events or just bad luck I can't expand as quickly as I wanted to.

I'm sure not everyone agrees with my hyper-expansion ways though...

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

For the MA Shinuyama question, i believe goblin shortbow archers are very cost-effective (as are monkey ones).

And the most important thing for fast expansions is to be able to take out indies without significant losses. Which means either combat pretender, good sacreds or lots of archers (preferably more than one thing from that list).

I try to take 1st province on 2nd turn, and start to take 2 provinces from turn 5 on. So i consider 20 to be decent result after 12 turns, anything less means you're not doing that well (may vary if map is crowded of course). If i run out of space during that time, i'll try to to secure NAPs with every of my neighbours except one, and rush that one to get his provinces.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

Early expansion is very important. If the other players are roughly equal in skill, you can get away with less than 10 your first year. But you need a rock solid plan, order scales and no misfortune (luck may be bad as well). If you've got a specific research goal and your lab burns down or barbarians/plague attacks your capital, you're dead.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

To state the obvious: more=better(usually).

The game can be divided, roughly, into phases:

First phase- Taking Independent territories. The goal is to grab as many of these as possible. Depending on map size and starting position, this ends maybe around turn 12. Regardless, few nations are going to go to war when there are still indies to grab. A territory is a territory, and going after the territories somebody else has lets a third party grab the indies in the meantime.

Second Phase- Warfare based on national troops. Now that the indies are gone, a player has two options, peace or invade. Being Peaceful can be viable during the second phase, but only if its spend researching, site searching, etc. Merely defending attacks from an aggressive player is probably bad, as it will drain resources with out actually gaining you anything. Regardless, what fighting there is, is relatively low magic. Some nations might be able to mass produce sacred troops for a high bless, but mostly its going to be your normal troops trying to outmatch another guys troops. Thats not to say magic won't be used in this phase, it will be, but in general you fight with what you're given.

Third Phase- Magic becomes paramount. Summons, Globals, battlefield wide enchantments make any national army weak by itself. National troops still used, but only in support rolls. Thugs, SC, and items are the real resources.

Now, with all that in mind, DON'T FORGET ABOUT DIPLOMACY. If you're the biggest nation on the block, you also have the biggest target on your back. The second and third sized nations are going to start planning their strategies around you exclusively. Also, it may be wise to pass up some territories, because it will have you border more nations, which may force you into unnecessary conflict, or force you to defend beyond strategic chokepoints. Also, whatever you take you must be able to afford to defend. Whats the point of beating up on indies, when a well thought out enemy army can march right to your capital.

Other factors to consider: scales. Those with negative scales have to fight with fewer resources, and NEED more provinces to compete, fancy blesses not withstanding.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

Most nations average 2 a turn with a pretender taking provinces and then their main army going for another route. Three a turn is relatively unrealistic in MP due to the likelihood of getting ganged if you expand that quickly. Though in the past uber bless strats have been able to defend pretty well, often there's player talent involved in that to make such strats relatively unsafe for most beginning players. An expansion rate of one - two provinces a turn is best though don't be too worried if you get off to a slow start, usually you can wrestle provinces away if you make some good plays against weaker players anyway.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

I should emphasize that when I say 3/turn on turn 7 I'm talking best case scenario. Usually geography/unlucky indy placement will force me to take less.

I usually run a pretty diplomatic intensive game - so I'm typically not too concerned about being ganged up on... but then I tend to play in large games where it's difficult to be singled out early amongst so many players.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

My play doesn't use elephants for Patala, till turn 8. HOWEVER, while I will only have one expansion force until turn 8, on turn 8 I should have 4 expansions forces ready to attack, 3 starting at the capital though, and be able to field a new expansion force every turn capable of defeating any indie without casualities.

The problem is the candle doesn't get lit till Turn 8.

Is that way to late? I have a feeling it is.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

I have only played 2 multiplayer games but my experience is that you must start taking areas by turn 3. Don't get me wrong I am not saying you need to take at least 1 territory every turn after turn 3. However should need to start.
Do not forget Mercenaries they can be a great help the first couple of turns.
Early conquest around your capital dramatically helps with money and resources.
The 10 provinces in the first year is a good guide.
Some players like to make their scout the prophet to help get a jump on expansion.
Most players crank up the tax rate and patrol with your army the first turn.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

He did have ONE expansion force before turn 8.

This depends on the amount of provinces you expect can be conquered before meeting another human. In very small games, that'd be too long. In longer games, it might work out okay. And if everything went just right, someone might attack you on turn 8 due to you being slow in the first turns, and then be pummeled into submission in a vicious counter-attack. Gandalf has mentioned a "breaking the dam" tactic that consists of gathering your forces in a relatively small space, waiting for someone to "break through" the indies, and then quickly annihilitaing his primary army and going for his lands. You might want to experiment with that. I doubt you could reliably win games with that tactic, but it could work the first few times.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

One question I would like to ask the peole here, what sort of independent strength are you used to playing with? The default strength 5 indies are pathetically weak, while indie strength 7 actually makes planning your indie conquests important unless you're using superb sacreds or a SC pretender.

What is the most common indeps setting in MP?

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

As a SP I have some questions.

1. I read somewhere, sometime, that in MP idies are kept at default of 5. Is that so? (I play at indies 9, for no reason other than that is the way my game style developed, but I have trouble making 3 unbeatable armies by turn 8.)
2. If indies are set at 5, what is the reason? Is it because it was the easiest choice to make or because indies at 9 would handicap too many nations with weak national troops.
3. Do you sacrifice almost all research in the opening phase by commiting every piece of gold to troops and commanders?
4. Do you garrison or PD conquered indies with anything more than a mere token force to maximize capitol troop purchases? If so, is this done as a tacit acknowledgment that your neighbors probably will not attack you until phase two starts?

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

I'd say the default, that is 5. Most MP games i've been in run with full defaults except renaming on, some with bigger HoF, rarely other settings are changed. Not that i've been in that many MP games though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

Indie strength 7 or 9 is an entirely different game.

Not because of the expansion, but the indie mages you get are insane.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

Have you submitted your pretender?

It doesn't show on the site. However, there wrere a few posts about something being wrong on the BAG thread.

My first expansion army begins attacking on Turn 2.

The others don't get started till Turn 8. But I should be able to take 3 provinces on Turn 8 easily. In a perfect world, I could take 4 provinces of any type. But the world isn't perfect, so call it 3.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

I don't think you get different poptypes, and thus different indy mages, at higher indy strength levels.

Or do you just mean the defending indies have some insane mages?

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

You can get Amazon's and Druid's on Indy-5. I believe I saw one in about 20 provinces in a solo game I played.

There are, MORE, on Indy-7.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

Never heard about that. Are you sure it couldn't just be a coincidence? DomII default was indy 3 IIRC, and the amazons and druids were far from rare. The map (=i.e. terrains) would probably have far more effect in this, with plains and farmlands having so many poptypes the crystal amazons appear very rarely compared to tribes of forests, swamps or mountains.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

Certain maps do tend towards them more often.
The games I've been involved in (all strength 5), especially early era, tend to have one province I must avoid due to blood druids and those blood vine monsters. I've seen other spell casters as well who've devastated an unexpecting expansion army.

On indie 5, I tend to see 20-80 troops to a province. On indie 6, sixty seems like it might be the low end. In the late era I generally saw less indie mages, but that might just be coincidence. Instead, I saw a lot more barbarians, HI, and crossbowmen - on 5 and 6, that is.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

Late era seems to have less amazons, druids and shamans.

Era's probably the largest source of difference.
Terrain will have an affect too.

Higher indy levels will get you more defenders with mages, even when there aren't recruitables there.

Speaking of the Blood Druids:
Does anyone else wish you'd get them instead of regular ones when you have to fight them? Is there a site you can get them from?

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

Poptypes are VERY dependent on eras. Hoburgs change a lot, as an example. The EA Hoburgs have no Burgmeisters but both the Horticulturist and the priest; the LA has Hog Knights and Burgmeister guards and all that. EA has more mage-types and no crossbows or knight/longbow provinces, and the heavy cavalry has lower prot (~13 at max). In MA and especially LA shortbows are still common, but the archers wear more armor and are harder to mass without castles, crossbowmen are common and prot 15 indep infantry with broad swords and shields is better than some nations' infantry.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

Well in the 20-30 MPs I have played in, all but 1 have been indie 5. The 1 being indie 0...that was good fun...scouts running around taking provinces.

Well there have been more off the wall MPs recently such as the megagame, team games, using mod nations and others. The settings are rarely altered much from the default.

Typically indies will be 5, sites 35-50, 1 province start, money 100, resources 100, supply 100 and 15 provinces per player map.

In SP on the other hand I personally play some very wacky games with the settings all over the place.

The most used mods are worthy heros and conceptual balance.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

"Speaking of the Blood Druids:
Does anyone else wish you'd get them instead of regular ones when you have to fight them? Is there a site you can get them from?"

There is a magic site called blood henge which allows you to recruit blood druids. I've only seen it once though, seems very rare.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

Sadly, after reviewing the effects of elephants on any troop I am going to have to retire my original plan. Which means I might as well say what it was.

By following this recruitment path:
1-Guru
2-Nagarishi
3-Nagarishi
4-Nagarishi
5-Yogi
6-Nagarishi
7-Whatever

It is possible to reach Alteration-3 on turn 8.

Using a Guru or Yogi monkey to cast Body Ethereal on 2 Nagarishi, and them casting Iron Skin(2x), Quickness(2x), Earth Might(1x), Blessing(1x,10% regen. + +2 reinvg) then the monkey runs and the Nagarishi hold for two turns and then attack closest. They win against anything unless the Blessing misses. The Guru always gets away, but sometime the Yogi will get hit by an arrow. "Casualities" are taken when a Nagarishi sucumbs to Cupcake Lust and becomes Heroically Obese. Other than that, a Nagarishi may pick up a non-damaging affliction, or one that forces into research, rarely.

However, elephants SMASH to efficiently for me to follow this plan.

Re: Early Expansion Question
 

So while we're talking early expansion, what is your expansion technique? I'm a radial expander, taking every nation that borders your capital first, so you can get more resources. There's also a bonus for weak nations when two nations that border your capital also border each other (making a triangle). You can attack from your capital and your newest conquest at the same time, then combine forces and send the commander back to the capital.

Anyway, the downside is that towards the end of the expansion phase you're walking to the front rather than taking provinces. Is there a consensus on what is the most efficient technique?

Depends on the map and opponents
 

If the map has chokepoints that you can seize early to hold larger regions of territory, and your opponents aren't extremely mobile, this can be a good plan.

If you have a weak neighbor, kill him and take his land before anybody else does. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Depends on the map and opponents
 

It depends on your troops.
With LA Atlantis, it's usually quite tough to expand, but I have a decent bless.

I build teams of 16 Arssartut and 1 Tungalik, and have them expand along the path of least resistance. The first team completed takes my first province, and then continues outward with the idea of limited casulties and taking a province every turn without backtracking. So, straight outward, more or less. The second team takes another adjacent province. Occasionally, the first team will take another adjacent province, but only after predicting my casualties.

Meanwhile, my starting army with additional Seal Hunters takes on cavalry or barbarians. This second force is designed to consolidate my territory, radially or whatnot.

Re: Depends on the map and opponents
 

For me it is all about geograpghy. Like Taqwus said - it is most important to take control over strategic provinces that can block enemy. And if you are lucky you can leave a lot of indy provinces that only you can attack.