Looking for SC pointers
 

Hello everybody

I was wondering if anyone had any good advice on how to make a great SC? They get mentioned quite many places, but I have so far seen very little actual detailed advice on how they are made, or what kind of characters make a good SC (or thug) base. Except for perhaps the obvious like good defences and how important fatigue is.

I would appreciate any good advice http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

Is this a SC for singleplayer or multiplayer?

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

For example, a small group of Mind Hunt casters can kill off any SC without lots of magic resistance or Astral magic. You don't have to worry about that when fighting the AI.

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

eh multiplayer then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

Without discussing specific builds (seriously, there are hundreds of threads about this. Use your search function) I'd say you are looking for:

Hit points (at least 30)
Reinvigoration
Regeneration (not as necessary)
High defense
High protection
Damage shields or large AoE effects
Magic resistance
Strategic move (flying)

Forge a huge variety of items and play around 'til you get a good mix of these. The elemental Kings and Queens and the unique blood summons are a good place to start. Or just equip a Niefel commander.

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

Morkilus forgot:

Luck
Ethereality
Mistform

Okay, the last one can only be gained through buffing with the appropiate spells, but Luck is the most useful ability to have bar none and ethereality is nice to have, too. You don't need high def / prot if the enemy cannot hit or hurt you.

For MP, you typically have to focus on MR boni very much.

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

I'd say reinvigoration (or life drain) was a lot more important than luck on anything without 0-enc actually. Especially since luck doesn't protect against mind hunting for some reason from the looks of it. It is really handy to have though, and available from a lot of different items/spells.

Basically just worry about keeping your SC alive with equipment and worry about how well it kills stuff later. Fire brands give you elemental resist as well as an AE attack, so they're good dual purpose weapons. Just watch out for skel-spam nations, against them you'll want more offensive punch to get through the chaff screens. 50 turns of killing stuff is a long time, and if your SC can stick in it for the long haul all that happens after that is running away (unless he's entangled or paralyzed, that can be a problem) so you won't lose much.

And never let your fatigue go over about 50, it will make you die.

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

This is probably the most difficult part of Dominions simply because there are so many options. Encumbrance is a little weird, and deserves special mention.

Commanders with zero encumbrance do not heal fatigue naturally, but their encumbrance will NEVER rise above zero. Even if you give them ridiculously heavy items. Undead make great units to place stupid heavy stuff onto like the full black plate. The elementals also have 0 encumbrance, making them great chassis.

Jazzepi

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

do luck and ethereal stack?

liek, etheral means 75% of nonmagic attacks automiss, right?

and luck means 50% of attacks automiss, right?

so with both, do 87.5% (7/8) of normal hits count as misses?

or am i wrong on a hundred things already?

tx

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

I believe they stack like this.

If a normal weapon hits a lucky/etheral one of the abilities checks first, and then if it passes that check, the other ability checks. If the weapon succeeds at passing both checks, it deals damage.

So the probability is (1/2)*(1/4) = 1/8. So a ethereal/lucky unit will only get hit by 1/8 of all the normal strikes.

Therefore, you're correct http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Jazzepi

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

Yes Zyl, they should stack.

And Jazzepi is only partially right. 0-enc units still get spellcasting encumberance from their items, so you DO have to watch out what you give them if you're planning on casting any self-buffs. After they're done casting they can melee all day without getting any more, but if they're already at 60 fatigue they're in a good deal of trouble.

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

Luck means 50% of successful attacks are negated.
So if you have ethereal and luck, 75% of attack will automatically miss and 50% of the rest that successfully do damage will also miss.
So luck is pretty uber on high defense units since few attacks will successfully hit them anyway, and half of those that manage to do damage will be negated.
This is my understanding of it from the description anyways.

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

I have to agree with Micah. Survival is the first thing you should take into consideration when making a SC. Get the usual sort of stuff such as high protection/defence, luck ect and then start to think of what your SC wil have to fight. Will the enemy be casting magic of a certain element that you will need resistances for? Does the enemy focus on spells that are negated by magic resistance? Does the enemy have special national troops(eg Niefel Giants with their chill aura and very high strength) or summoned troops(abominations anyone?).
As a last note(only IMO):
It's almost always better to get a very high defence value or protection value(my usual choice)with a reasonable amount of the other rather than just quite high in both. Of course you should generally try to have a reasonable amount of each(pure protection and AN weapons will destroy you. Pure defence and AoE can do the same).

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

This is very true. The flip side to having 0 encumberance is that you do not naturally regain fatigue. So if you plan on casting battlefield buffs without the aid of either soul vortex, or summon earth power, you'll need some reinvig items. Each 10 points of fatigue reduces your defense by 1, which is quite nasty.

Jazzepi

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

I dont think defense is important on SCs, as they will get swarmed anyway, better take high protection, luck, ethereality.

Starshine skullcap, Amulet of Antimagic and Pendant of Luck are a good base that gives you enough MR to last and luck.

For a weapon the Fire, Frost and Death AoE swords are good, the snake bladder stick has some uses, and if you want to kill other SCs, Gate Cleaver or for undeads Flambeaus.

As a shield the charcoal or the eye shield are nice.

As an armor High protection is never wrong, and and some resistances dont hurt either.

Boots of Quickness are a good choice or the ones that make you stone for protection.

Now you have just to watch out for encumbrance.

The most common SC counters are:
Soul Slay --> you need high MR
Frozen Heart --> Cold Resistance
Incinerate --> Fire Resistance
Lightning --> Lightning resistance
Also any spell that does AN damage and has no MR is some danger for you.

So you just need 100% Cold, Fire and Lightning resistance, an MR around 25 to defend against spells. A protection around 30 against units and high enough reinvigoration for the protection to last. Also Ethereality and Luck are necessary, the same goes for high regeneration. Now your SC has to buff himself in battle with mistform, phoenix pyre and soul vortex and you are ready to go.

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

Yes, protection is generally better but if you have a unit with very high natural defence(a skilled, W9 pretender for example) then a defence SC is possible(although I tend to avoid them). A bunch of defence boosting items and luck on a naturally high defence unit means that even when swarmed you should take few hits if any.

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

My three mandatory assets are luck and etheral and 7 item slots.

I also think of my SC's having 50+ hit points. Less than that I will classify them as a thug. (An entirely subjective opinion.) My bane lords are thugs. The deva's I get from wish are SC's.

The deva is a great chassis with 4 hand slots. Not etheral, but I enjoy it anyway. I put every item of quickness on her that I can forge along with the Sickle whose crop is Death (whatever). It's like stealing death gems. Minimum of 20 death gems a battle.

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

Wish? Try 'Seraph'.

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

I've not tried Seraph. I'll make that my next wish chassis. What are the main stats?

This game is like the menu of a Chinese restaurant. Way too many choices, and no matter what you order someone else's looks better.

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

ethereal is not at all essential for a true SC. It only helps against normal weapons, hence against chaff troops - and those would normally be no issue for an SC.

It is extremely useful for an early expanding pretender, or a thug, though.

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

Something like 77hp, crazy magic (F4A4S4H4, if memory serves), awe, fire shield, sacred, melee attackers risk blindness, full slots, good stats. Not something you want to anger.

It's in the manual, under national summons -- Pythium or Marignon only, IIRC, something like 'Heavenly Choir'. That spell actually costs more than Wish, but it does come with more angels and you don't need to GoR the Seraph with the national summons.

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

Seraph is like an Archangel, except more Arch and more Angel. A bit like a winged, sacred, awed Niefel Jarl, except bigger. The first time I saw one, during beta, I read the description and got to the "covers its face so that mortals aren't blinded" part. Then I looked at the sprite (two wings cover the Seraph's face, two the legs, and the last pair is for flying) and realized that in battle, the attack sprite would most likely show the wings spread open - and for a moment, I shivered at the thought of seeing its face.

In other words, it's an A2W1 mage that used so rule the game in DomII.

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

Anybody ever make a Vastness an SC?

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

Yeah, and I always overestimate their survivability.

I had a random setup where every starting location (me and the AIs) all started with a free commander from the unit list and Magic 4 items. Start with a vastness, demon lord, or pretender chassis and then sometimes start with a slinger or militia. Obviously I'd restart until I got something fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

A lot of the good chassis still need basic equipment for great surviveability - even con 2 stuff will do wonders.

Although the AI grabbed a seraph once, even naked that thing was brutal.

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

Ah nostalgia. I remember back in dom2, GoRing a vastness and giving at a bunch more to lead.. 10 strategic movement is surprisingly large. Died horribly against an AI capital though..

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

How about abominations? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Looking for SC pointers
 

Does anyone know the ID number for a Seraph? It doesn't appear on any of the lists that I have downloaded. Last weekend was the occasion of one of my old save game cleansing rituals (extremely rare event) and I only have my current game active, which is a long way from a Wish.