OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

I know this is totally off topic - but I needed to vent some frustration out at the decision of the IOC for Beijing to host the 2008 Summer Games.

BOO!

Why does it seem unfair that a country that has such a long history of abusing human rights and denying freedom to it's people be rewarded with something as special as the Olympic games? Isn't the spirit of the games the exact opposite of what China is today?

I am from Toronto. The runner-up for the 2008 games. Bitter, perhaps - but not a sore loser. Toronto is the most multi-cultural city in the world. 52% of 5 million people in this city are foreign born and co-exist peacefully in the same neighbourhoods. A cultural mosaic. A safe and clean city with impressive plans to develop the waterfront into an olympic haven. One of the most efficient mass transit systems in the world. It should have been the only choice.

If anyone thinks the Olympics will help the people of China - they're wrong. When the games come and the world's media is focused and Beijing, what do you think will happen to the protestors marching for their rights? They'll be swept under the rug. Can anyone say "Tiananmen Square, Part II".

Oh well. There is nothing that can be done now. Perhaps I'll focus this spurt of Olympic enthusiasm towards getting Space Empires IV as a demo sport for 2004 games in Athens. (See, not completely off topic).

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Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

I am in agreement.

China is a poor choice. I suppose the worst thing that could be done to china right now was if Nato & Commonwealth nations all refused to submit members to the olympics and an official statement demanding china fully disclose all thier human rights violations and demand that china restore the rights of the people.

Of course, I favor forcing china into bankruptcy as well...

My apologies to anyone in china who reads this. I really don't like communism as it often goes from being communism to dictatorships really fast.

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HADRIAN AVENTINE
pacea@solar-outpost.com
http://www.hyperionbase.com

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

I was really hoping it would be Toronto. I'm from Rochester (across Lake Ontario) and not only would I likely have gone if they were there, but it would have had benefited the economy of probably every city within 100 miles. I'm honestly not surprised with the decision, since the IOC rarely has looked at the practical side but rather on who puts on the best show for them. Democracy has little influence with the IOC since they are an elitist non-democratic organization themselves!

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by justjake73:
I'm from Rochester (across Lake Ontario) and not only would I likely have gone if they were there, but it would have had benefited the economy of probably every city within 100 miles.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, it does: I lived in Greenville, SC, in 1996, 150 miles away from Atlanta. You bet we got a significant tourism windfall. And going to the Olympics is extremely way cool, even if it was for one day-- the day AFTER the Centennial Park bombing....

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hadrian Aventine:
I really don't like communism as it often goes from being communism to dictatorships really fast.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In theory, communism is a great system: "from each according to his abilities, for each according to his needs." Unfortunately, the theory breaks down very quickly when you introduce human nature....

Quikngruvn

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"That which does not kill you will make you stronger." -- Nietzsche

[This message has been edited by Quikngruvn (edited 13 July 2001).]

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Quikngruvn:
In theory, communism is a great system: "from each according to his abilities, for each according to his needs." Unfortunately, the theory breaks down very quickly when you introduce human nature....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure it's great, if you are the one with the needs. But if you happen to be the one with the abilities, you get screwed.

Geo

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

The layman's explination of capitalism / socialism / communism:

Capitalism: You have a cow and a bull (not a steer of course - something fertile!!). You breed the two, use / sell the milk and calves and pay a tax.

Socialism: You have a cow and a bull. The goernment takes all milk and calves.

Communism: You NEVER HAD a cow and a bull!!!

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

as much as we tout capitalism, the US was basically a socialist state through much of the Last century. as dingy as he way, old ronny ray-gun pretty much dismantled the wellfare-state, and 30s era government subsidies to things like state construction projects and agriculture have been tapering off since.. oh, the fifties?

from what I understand (which aint much) Canada and the UK are mostly socialist, especially with regards to medicine.

now communism.. well, it works well enough on COMMUNES for hippies and crystal huggers and such, where they only have to deal with 50 to 100 people or so. but if someone can come up with any usefull contribution that that batch ever made to anything, i will be impressed. as soon as you apply it to governments, what a mess.

which reminds me, is anyone on this board from Hong Kong? how are they doing now? I recall talking to a guy in HK on battlenet the night before it was being handed back over to China. He was not terribly happy about the whole thing.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Puke:
now communism.. well, it works well enough on COMMUNES for hippies and crystal huggers and such, where they only have to deal with 50 to 100 people or so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Communes only work because of the small scale, and the transitory nature of the population. By the time one group gets tired of doing all the work for the others and leaves, another group of pie-in-the-sky optimists comes along and picks up the slack.

No system that rewards laziness and punishes initiative can survice on a universal scale, without a totalitarian hierarchy to keep the proletariat in line.

Geo

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Heck, back in the bad old days, the USSR and ChiComms werent friends even though they were supposedly the same system. China adopted communism to itself I guess. Maoist Communism. Mao was quite the character too... I'd tell stories but this is a family place

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Instar:
I'd tell stories but this is a family place<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

a strategy game forum? if this isnt the biggest bunch of war-mongers and leftover cold-warriors on the web, im not exactly sure what is. where else can you start a topic thats basically entitled "F- the Olympics, the commie dogs!" and not only is it NOT flamed by sensitivity-trained internet yuppies and hipsters, but it is overwhelmingly endorsed by everyone who has commented so far. I even got away with poking fun at pacifists, hippies, and new-agers, and no one has rebuked me yet!

granted, most stories about thrid world dictators can get fairly graphic, but I for one would not complain if you posted some stories.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

To heck with communism, give me my western-style capitalism any day of the week (and the idealist in me is socialist anyway!).

Supposedly the Beijing Games will force China to be more open about human rights, etc. I'll believe it when I see it.

Quingruvn

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

The IOC has done this sort of thing before. 1936 Olympics were in- Berlin.

Phoenix-D

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

I wasn't really commenting about communism - more or less the IOC's poor decision in choosing Beijing as host. It sucks. I guess Toronto will have to wait until 2012 or 2016 to run again. (PS, We ran for 1996 and lost to Atlanta by a slim margin too).

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Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
The IOC has done this sort of thing before. 1936 Olympics were in- Berlin.

Phoenix-D<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, and they WOULD have held the games a few years ago in Salt Lake City, mainly becaues the mormons got them good 'escorts' during the little get-togethers where they show off what a swell place they have. I didnt think the press made as big of a deal about that one as they should have.

i guess the IOC does suck.

edit: disclaimer, this is not an anti mormon post. I have nothing against any perticular religion. this post is intended soley to slander the IOC and the ruling body of Utah, which happens to be Mormon.

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

[This message has been edited by Puke (edited 14 July 2001).]

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rdouglass:
The layman's explination of capitalism / socialism / communism:

Capitalism: You have a cow and a bull (not a steer of course - something fertile!!). You breed the two, use / sell the milk and calves and pay a tax.

Socialism: You have a cow and a bull. The goernment takes all milk and calves.

Communism: You NEVER HAD a cow and a bull!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My favorite government type is the fascist corporate state (I'm serious BTW). It's great if done properly, and it's like a realist's Version of communism.

The government gives you a cow. You make milk and calves. The government takes your milk and calves, sells the milk back to you, and gives your calves to others (to make more cows, of course). The government uses its milk money to maintain its Legions of Doom, which are busy burning other nations to the ground.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:
I guess Toronto will have to wait until 2012 or 2016 to run again. (PS, We ran for 1996 and lost to Atlanta by a slim margin too).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If nothing else, Spoogy, remember Athens-- they made (and narrowly lost) quite a few bids before landing 2004.

Quikngruvn

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"That which does not kill you will make you stronger." -- Nietzsche

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Tell me something, the West, especially the US just NEEDS a political enemy right? First you have got the ex-USSR and now China. I personally is from Hong Kong, and I get to see a lot of things first hand. I spent a year studying in the US and it really surprised me that China got such a bad stereotype, definitely not helped by your local Press. Bad things always got colourfully exaggerated many times over and put on the front page, good things rarely if ever got mentioned. Beware that what you see on the news might not be the whole picture.

Freedom and human rights? While I agree that China could make use of a better government system, it seems rather strange that people not even living in the country is pushing for a change harder than the Chinese themselves. In any case it is slowly changing anyway. Has it ever occured to you that the current batch of key decision makers is totally different from the one in 1989? Why do you think this is so? Don't expect everything to change over-night though, because it can't.

I have no idea why you guys living half-way around the world always seem to care about the "human rights" or "freedom" in China, I hope it is not an excuse to bannish the Chinese people (put it frankly, that is called racism). It is best to leave them to decide their own future. Trying to alienate China or pushing it into doing things the Western way is really counter-productive, it is going to do nothing but bring anger from the Chinese people. Take the latest 2008 Olympic decision for example, human rights is really not an excuse for not letting Beijing to host the Game. What's more important is, do the local people want the Game? I can tell you the answer is an affirmative 'yes'.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CW:
I have no idea why you guys living half-way around the world always seem to care about the "human rights" or "freedom" in China<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, I can only speak for myself, and it may sound pretty ****ty, but I'm a nationalist. I like to think that my country and form of government is better than everyone elses. Moreover, Im an imperialist in the same way that the british were imperialists when they burned washington, and the french were imperialists when they were raping Africa.

I like to think that my country is entitled to some kind of emminent domain over the rest of the world. And I would like to think that every other person in the world feels the same way about their own country. Thus, I can be sure that everyone else distrusts and dislikes me and my culture, and I can feel safe in a world of mutual hatred and political strife.

I feel like my way of life is being jepordized whenever the world 'gets smaller' and things happen like the berlin wall coming down, or russia falling apart, or china and tiawan improving their relationships. thats why I play WAR games. I like to fantasize about human suffering and imperialist conquest from the safty of my own home.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:

Why does it seem unfair that a country that has such a long history of abusing human rights and denying freedom to it's people be rewarded with something as special as the Olympic games
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So why do the US get to have the olympics now and then? (I know you are Canadian, and I'm not verbally assaulting you) The US are the real threat to human rights and the so called democracy.

In the sixties (or was it the seventies?) a radiostation in the US refused to play Phil Collins because he had black musicians in his band.

Today the countyside in southern states looks like a poor country in southamerica or something.

Then some Americans (US Americans) say that Iran or Iraq are controlled by religious fanatics. Take a look at your own country. Take a look at Ricki Lake. Take a look at your money bills.

"In god we trust"

Yeah, right! Who is the real fanatic, here?

US is much younger than china and should show some respect for its older "brother".

Chinese ppl think in another way than Americans - and if their vision of human rights are different, then let it be so.

US executes ppl too, you know. In the US alot of ppl have nowhere to sleep, nothing to eat.

In the US you can't even have a proper election. That is not democracy.

What's the big deal with the olympics anyway?

-Luc

[This message has been edited by Lucanos (edited 15 July 2001).]

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hadrian Aventine:
I really don't like communism as it often goes from being communism to dictatorships really fast.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The difference between the chinese and you, in this sense, is that they know they live in a dictatorship.

You don't!

You think your country is "the free world", don't you?

I'm sorry to tell you that EU propaganda against the US is saying something else. Most Swedish and Danish citizens I know think that the US is alot WORSE than sovietunion ever was. You US citizens (as I refuse to call you "Americans") have no idea.

On the other hand, I can't say I blame you for beliving that your country is a free one. The propaganda in the US is so intense.

Whenever I see the newspaper here in Sweden or in the UK - G. W. Bush looks like a moron. They prefer to publish pictures where he's got stupid expressions.

When I came to the US (A couple of months ago - I have cousins there) the pictures of Bush in the newspapers where totaly different, he looked alot smarter and somewhat cool in his trenchcoat and hat.

Human rights? What's with vietnam? Was that a humane thing to do?

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

From a sports standpoint having China host the games is long overdue. The country contains about 1/6th of the worlds population. They are competitive in most events and dominate some. It's about time they had "the home field advantage".

The Olympics are not suppose to be about politics they are suppose to be about sport. Why we insist on making it political is beyond me but as far as I can tell it's mostly western countries who start the debate.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

CW - Don't assume ALL the west is moulding China into an enemy. Personally being from Toronto, with one of the largest ethnic Chinese communities in the world - I have met and work with a lot of Chinese people who have shared with me their experiences in China - and why they choose to come to Canada.

[quote]While I agree that China could make use of a better government system, it seems rather strange that people not even living in the country is pushing for a change harder than the Chinese themselves.[quote]

Perhaps it's because they get mowed down by tanks or just plain disappear when they do...

I sympathize with the people living in China and I wish them to enjoy the freedoms that I have. In some ways I'm glad they got the olympics - but it worries me that the people who control China will use it as a propaganda display saying there's no problem with their country during those 16 days...

I'm not saying that China should become like the west (not just the US). I think in this day and age that should be moving towards democracy a lot faster than they are. If the majority of Chinese know what the west was really like (as oppossed to the propaganda fed to them) - what lifestyle would they choose?

Lucanos - Please be careful not to heap in Canada in the same pile as the US. Just because we're on the same continent and share a lot of things does not mean we practice the same politics or culture. I've lived in both countries - and find that Canadian politics have a lot more in common with European countries.

Also with the US, it varies from region to region. The Northwest for example is suprisingly different from the south and so on. I'm sure the Americans on this board will agree. Sure they messed up a lot of things, but they're really not that bad - plus without them you guys in Europe might still be living in a Nazi regime...



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Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

I know the Olympics are supposed to be about sports and not politics. But the current view is that Beijing got the Olympics as a result of politics and coporate push. Those multi-national corporations just can't wait to get their hands on such a big market you know.

If it was just about sport, then why didn't they choose Toronto? The world's must diverse multi-cultural city? Geez, then everyone could have cheered for their native countries (instead of just the Chinese cheering the Chinese to dominate over everyone else)...it seems it could have been a more global thing doesn't it?

Oh well. I hope Toronto bids again for 2012. Although I'll probably be living in Vancouver by then - rats - but then again they're up for the 2010 Winter games - alright Olympic Hockey!

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Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>definitely not helped by your local Press. Bad things always got colourfully exaggerated many times over and put on the front page, good things rarely if ever got mentioned. Beware that what you see on the news might not be the whole picture.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This description fits most of the media outlets that I know of. The weaker a radio or TV station's news Ratings, or the lower a newspaper or magazines' circulation, the more sensationalized their coverage becomes. "If it bleeds, it leads." I believe this is a worldwide problem; the rest of the world's perception of the U.S. is no more accurate than the U.S.' view of their respective nations.

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Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Capt.,
Toronto didn't get it because the US wants the 2012 games held in Baltimore/Washington. Unfortunately the political games overshadow the real games.

Luc,
You're right the US is not a Democracy, we are a Republic and the election was held properly according to the laws in effect at the time of the election.

You must have spent a lot of time in our country. I've lived here over 50 years and haven't seen any country side that looks like a poor South American country. Maybe I've just been lucky.

PS-Europeans may think Bush is a moron but he was smart enough to get elected President of the most powerful country in the world. Would he have been smarter if he were elected Prime Minister of Sweden?

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

I think everyone here has forgotten that things work differently in different cultures.

Here is an example:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marty Ward:
PS-Europeans may think Bush is a moron but he was smart enough to get elected President of the most powerful country in the world. Would he have been smarter if he were elected Prime Minister of Sweden?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about Sweden but in Finland getting voted to president doesn't mean you have to be very smart. Usually the person doesn't matter much but the persons party matters. If the person would matter I'd bet that the Finnish president wouldn't be divorced single parent and a woman.

Edit: I just remembered that she remarried some time ago.

[This message has been edited by Zarix (edited 15 July 2001).]

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lucanos:
Human rights? What's with vietnam? Was that a humane thing to do?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i donno, ask the French. they were there first.

As for the US being a free country, I think we have less restricting laws on firearms than just about anywhere else in the world. I think we have some opressive laws on drug use and pornography. I think the oppressive laws we do have, and the choices we lack, are by far made up by in the vast increase in standard of living that we have over other first world countries. for example, the price of comodities like petrol, the wide varities and availability of luxury items at grocery stores, such as scented quilted paper to wipe our butts with. comparativey, we are a nation of hedonists.

I think our race riots are not any worse than the race riots in the UK, and are certainly better than the **** that goes on in places like Israel and Serbia.

I think our poor are in general better off than most peoples poor. People like to poo-poo on the US, and on our forign policies, and our domestic situation. all in all, i think its pretty danm good. I think we do more good in the international community than would be done if we were not there doing it. And I dont really care that our election system is screwed up. there are enough political extremists around here, on every side of an issue, that things tend to work them selves out without more moderate people having to worry about it. We can sit back and rest assured that there are enough rabble-roUsers out there to fight the good fight for us.

man, I cant even start thinking about how good we have it, without getting all warm and fuzzy inside.

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Well, this thread has taken an interesting twist. First, yes the IOC sucks. That's what the scandal of the past few years was about. Just because open bribery has been sort of 'cleaned up' we should not assume that they are beyond improper influence. I don't doubt that all the nations involved in this year's competition were using various "behind the scenes" influences. China just happened to have the most effective methods this year.

The political discussion that has grown out of this initial point is quite fascinating. It is of course a joke that the industrialized nations of Europe/North America are called the 'free world'. Nothing is 'free' in the capitalized world, especially political opinion. They just suppress dissent by cleverer means than the ham-handed 'communists' and similar dictators. It's a bit hard to get your political opinion into the mass media if it doesn't have the support of either the Democratic or Republican parties in the US, for example. We had FIVE qualified national candidates in the Last Presidential election. How many were in the "Presidential Debates"? Two. The two representing the parties with hundreds of millions of dollars to spend. Keep on rockin' in the 'free world'!

The United States is a Republic by formal definition but in practice it's some sort of Plutocracy or Oligarchy. You cannot get into political life without huge amounts of wealth. If you're not born into it -- which both of the 'recognized' candidates in the Last Presidential election were, btw -- you have to get 'sponsors' among the money-classes. Thus the profession of "politician" is actually 'fund-raiser' most of the time. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Yet, in the most bizarre twist of all, most of the 'white middle-class' population think they live in a democracy! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...s/confused.gif The European nations are somewhat better because they tend to have 'proportional' representation and public funding of political parties. But they are still largely ruled by their corporate classes, just less severely.

Marty Ward:

How much of the Southern United States have you seen? If you travel very far outside of a city in Alabama, Mississippi, or Louisiana you'll see some very 'third world' countryside. It's the classic 'vicious circle' that you see in Africa or South America. The people are poor and uneducated, so no one will locate any serious industry nearby to give them jobs. So they have no money and cannot get education/training to get decent jobs. The programmer's Deadly Embrace in social conditions. It's quite real but most of the victims are the Wrong Color to attract interest from the 'liberal' mass media, so it goes unreported. Then there are the "Indian Reservations" where those inconvenient ORIGINAL inhabitants of this continent are housed. They "weren't using the land" say the propoganda manuals^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Htext books in the public schools. Text books carefully supervised by the government and the huge corporations who own all mass publishing channels. Not using it? What is 'not using it'? Not chopping down all the trees and damming all the rivers and raping the land for minerals? Well, this is a nifty principle. If someone is "not using" their property in a way that I think they should, I have the right to take it??? So, the descendants of the rightful owners of this entire continent a now forced to live in abject poverty in deserts that aren't useful to the media-industrial complex. But they don't count either. Then there's Appalachia, where there are actually white people living in poverty. But that's too scary to be dealt with, so they have to be dismissed with a good label like 'white trash'. Obviously if you're white and not comfortably middle-class there's something wrong with you and you're 'white trash'... Yep, if you don't count people who aren't already middle-class there's no poverty in the US! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...s/rolleyes.gif

Besides, it would not look good to have real poverty in the US while we are haranguing all those 'third world' nations to join our trade treaties so they can become 'prosperous' like we are ...and lock their economic subordination into a legal structure. They might realize that "capitalism" does not automatically make everyone wealthy. They must not be allowed to realize that until it's too late or they might not sign the treaties. Thus the silence.


[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 15 July 2001).]

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Yet, in the most bizarre twist of all, most of the 'white middle-class' population think they live in a democracy!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be because most are idiots and/or do not care about the political system. Never was set up as a democracy. Democracy, like communism, appears to be one of those systems that might work in small communities but falls flat on it's face in large ones.

Lucanos
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
The difference between the chinese and you, in this sense, is that they know they live in a dictatorship.

You don't!

You think your country is "the free world", don't you?

I'm sorry to tell you that EU propaganda against the US is saying something else. Most Swedish and Danish citizens I know think that the US is alot WORSE than sovietunion ever was. You US citizens (as I refuse to call you "Americans") have no idea.

On the other hand, I can't say I blame you for beliving that your country is a free one. The propaganda in the US is so intense.

Whenever I see the newspaper here in Sweden or in the UK - G. W. Bush looks like a moron. They prefer to publish pictures where he's got stupid expressions.

When I came to the US (A couple of months ago - I have cousins there) the pictures of Bush in the newspapers where totaly different, he looked alot smarter and somewhat cool in his trenchcoat and hat.

Human rights? What's with vietnam? Was that a humane thing to do?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, Vietnam. Happened in the 1960s, early 70s. If you can bring that up, I can bring up France executing people right up to 1977.

Second, the death penalty. China excecutes a lot more people than the US does, and for lesser crimes. Not all US states allow the death penalty, and McVeigh was the first one to be federally exceucted in quite a while, I think.

Third, the papers- I'm curious, where was this? Local papers here gennerally do not show ANYTHING in a good light in their editorial comics. Heck, today's was a Chinese-looking guy in a suit with IOC on it, saying "We have no political repression, we merely outlaw unauthorized "issues advocacy"

That's actually a dig at the IOC AND a local Senator, John McCain, who constantly tries for "campaign finance reform", which appears to be mostly making lots of complicted rules so you need to pay lawyers just to campaign.

I'm also trying to figure out why a lot of people seem to think their local news is the only word. You called the EU news propaganda along with the US news, but then you go on to take their viewpoint!

Phoenix-D

[This message has been edited by Phoenix-D (edited 15 July 2001).]

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Baron,

I've seen a small portion of our country, mostly the seaports and chemical production areas. Lots of visits to Tx., La., Ala. and Miss. Grew up in Maryland and have seen quite a lot of West Va, generally considered the poorest state in the nation.

Spent ~15 years in the merchant marine and have seen my fair share of third world nations.

I have never seen anything approaching the poorer areas of third world nations in the US. We have people who are poor in our country, that is not disputed. What we don't have are third world conditions. Go visit Somalia, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, or Brazil if you doubt me.

I just hate to see such slanted and generalized statements made about my country.

We had 5 qualified canidates? You give them to much credit http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

[This message has been edited by Marty Ward (edited 15 July 2001).]

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

It's interesting to see how many people feel that the other cultures are inferior and that the local slant is the only "truth". I guess it's fair to assume that everyone views are slightly biased towards the home team. With the various conflicting claims, it would be hard for an outsider to judge the relative credibility of tha participants.
Consider this: In how many places in the world could a debate like this take place in public? Which countries have laws protecting your freedom to express these ideas? Which countries allow virtually unrestricted communication of information across the internet, and which limit it.
Since most Users of this forum could be considered to have some expertize in the uses of and restrictions on the internet, which country's culture would you select to "govern" the internet? It would be interesting to see some honest answers to that one.


Steve A

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Question? When was the most recent US presidental election held in which a person not born and reared in the upper classes of society ran for and was elected to the US presidency?

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JenMax:
Question? When was the most recent US presidental election held in which a person not born and reared in the upper classes of society ran for and was elected to the US presidency?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, it's not a hereditary aristocracy. Bill Clinton was a poor boy from the depths or Arkansas. But he had to suck-up to thousands and thousands of people who already had the money he needed to run his campaigns. Thus, he had to make promises to do things that would benefit them. Each and every congressman or senator also has to make so many promises and get into so many 'deals' that they are basically unable to act on their own sense of right and wrong by the time they get into office -- if they still HAVE a sense of right and wrong by then. Government is totally about power brokering now. Even if it always has been mainly about power brokering, there used to be the occasional outbreak of morality in the old days before mass-media dominated politics.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Heh. I didn't realize bashing the US government was a worldwide sport, but I guess I should have....

The key word here is money. Especially in the past decade or so, it has taken more and more money to run a campaign to achieve (or keep) a political office in the US. As the good Baron mentioned, the money's got to come from somewhere-- mainly special-interest Groups, corporate entities, and wealthy individuals, all with their own agendas. Or, "he who has the money makes the rules."

In any US election, more than 90% of incumbents retain their office. Many run without any opposition, while others just have so much more money (from supporters) than any challenger.

'Course, then there is the case of Strom Thurmond, who is practically idolized in the state of South Carolina. He was re-elected to his eighth six-year term in the US Senate at the still-spry age of 94. Thankfully, he will not run for re-election next year, when he's 100 years old-- because he'd get re-elected (around here, it's considered sacrilege to believe that Strom will ever die). The bad thing is, even with the election more than a year away, the winner has all but been declared. Lindsey Graham very quickly got the money and political endorsements to seal the deal, before any challenger could even move to create a campaign war machine.

The point of that diatribe? It just illustrates another aspect of US governement, the "Good Ol' Boy" system. The people already in power, mostly rich white men in their 40's or 50's, decide who gets to join their club. They then have money poured into the candidates' campaigns (often from the national party's funds, but see above for where that cash came from) so that they can bring someone into office who will agree with their ideology. While in office, the Good Ol' Boys each promise to support the others' agenda in exchange for the others' support. National political office is an exclusive club, and you almost have to know the right people to get in.

Remember, this is the same country that elected a professional wrestler to the office of State Governor.

If there was a point to this post, I think it's this: most Americans realize that there are serious problems with the current form of US government, but are either too stupid, too lazy, or too complacent to do anything about it. Still, it beats many alternatives....

Quikngruvn (who honestly considers himself lucky to have been (cue Bruce Springsteen) "Born in the USA")

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JenMax:
Question? When was the most recent US presidental election held in which a person not born and reared in the upper classes of society ran for and was elected to the US presidency?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And before Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Eisenhower.

LL

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Just a quick respond to Capt_Spoogy

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:
CW - Don't assume ALL the west is moulding China into an enemy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I admit you are quite right in terms of politics, but it seems to me that subconsciously, Chinese somehow seems to be looked down as "second class" people by most westerners. I hope you can tell me I'm totally wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>While I agree that China could make use of a better government system, it seems rather strange that people not even living in the country is pushing for a change harder than the Chinese themselves.

Perhaps it's because they get mowed down by tanks or just plain disappear when they do...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is not the primary reason at all. As I said before the leadership in China has been changed since the incident in 1989, and I really doubt that they will do the same thing again if a similar situation occurs again. Besides, using tanks to crush a protest is an over-kill! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

If you think the government in China is still a true and honest Communist government then you have got it totally wrong. Ever since the 1970 the place is becoming more and more of a capitalist world, that's why they had those hugh corruption cases involving PRIVATE Chinese coporations running into billions of dollars. As you guys living in Canada might have heard, the prime suspect for one of the largest corruption case in modern China is currently being detained in Canada.

Nowadays the top aganda for most people in China is the economy. They are A LOT more money-minded then they were 30 or 40 years ago when China was still running under a true Communist system, and politics has somewhat taken a second place since. Try going to Beijin and give the local people a lecture on Communism doctrines, they will tell you to get a life!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> In some ways I'm glad they got the olympics - but it worries me that the people who control China will use it as a propaganda display saying there's no problem with their country during those 16 days...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In my opinion, the reason for Beijin's Olympic bid is much more economical than political. Besides, the local citizens want the Games themselves. This is a matter of nationalism or patriotism or whatever you want to call it. Bad government or not, China IS their mother country, this is more of a Chinese cultural thing than government propaganda as some of you suggested. Even if the Chinese government does try to use the occasion to tell the world they have a great system, will you believe it? Do you really think they want eggs all over their faces?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think in this day and age that should be moving towards democracy a lot faster than they are. If the majority of Chinese know what the west was really like (as oppossed to the propaganda fed to them) - what lifestyle would they choose?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all, do you think the Chinese government is still actively feeding propaganda about the west? That would be a rather silly thing to do nowadays. They wouldn't have done that AND let thousands of students travel overseas to study every year. I admit that they still try to censor things but it is already much more open then it used to, and I'm sure it will continue to change for the better. As to the pace of change, what are you basing your judgement on? What is slow and what is fast? Every country or culture has its own unique charateristic, it is simply wrong to apply one set of "rules" to another. Taiwan for example only had their first real general election Last year or the year before, and the Kuomintang (Nationalist Party) finally got kicked out of office after some 90 years in power. I bet nobody in China would want to see any political reform rushed, the current governemnt in China is perfectly stable and if that changes you might end up with a collapsed economy like Russia. In fact if you look at Zhu Rongji's speeches in meetings inside China, the first thing he talks about most of the time is how he is going to control corruption, which is currently unfortunately everywhere in China, an unwanted by-product of the economic reform. That is THE biggest headache-causing problem for the government right now instead of any political unrest in the country or any so called "politically incorrect" people.

As to choosing between the current Chinese life-style and western style, of cause they will choose the Western way! The key question here though, is WHY? Ever since the reforms in the 1970s and 80s, the people had their first real taste of wealth, or in too many cases the lack of it. For the thousands of migrants and boat people leaving China each year, how many do you think is really for political reasons? For the great majority of so called "IIs" (Illegal Immigrants) sneaking into Hong Kong after the 1970/80s Reform, they were looking for a better life. Though from what I saw their definition of "better life" had little to do with the political side of things.

My own family moved to Australia from Hong Kong in 1994. My parents, like a lot of others during that period made their decision due to the worry about the possible government instability after the "handover". But above all, they were worrying that the instability would ruin the economy and way of life in Hong Kong. If you look at the figures, there is a peak of people leaving Hong Kong due to the Tiananmen Square aftershock the few years immeidately after the event, but the number of people leaving each year gradually went down and now we are actually seeing people moving back. My own family will probably do the same too after I graduate from university.

The thing I want to point out here is that things in China is nowhere near as dramatic as many of you think.


[This message has been edited by CW (edited 17 July 2001).]

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Marty - The official consensus why Toronto did not receive the olympics despite having the top bid was for geopolitical reasons which you touched on. It was time to give it to the largest populated country in the world...not because of the US 2012 bid...

IOC members have been quoted as saying they really want Toronto to run again in 2012...and I think if they do, the US won't have a chance...

------------------
Visit the Spoogy Federation at:
http://spoogyfederation.tripod.com

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

The United States has problems, many of them glaring. But they are not "systemic", that is they are caused by or agravated by our form of government. If anything, our system of government has allowed us to prosper to such a degree that we have become complacent and apathetic to the problems of some of our citizens.

There are poor in the United States, but their standard of living is nowhere near as poor as those in other nations. Even in the most impoverished areas of the deep south, appalacia, or the southwest indian reservations people have food, shelter, clean water, and access to medical care and education. Reports to the contrary in the nightly news are only in the news because they are newsworthy, and so very rare. The poor of the United States complain that they have to deal with rats, the poor in other nations eat the rats.

The most recent presidential election was actually more noteworthy for the fact that BOTH major candidates were children of well-to-do, politically connected families. This is actually something of a rarity in our political system, especially at the highest levels. Most children of political families avoid it in their adult life because they have grown up seeing the less-desirable side of it.

Geoschmo

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
First, Vietnam. Happened in the 1960s, early 70s. If you can bring that up, I can bring up France executing people right up to 1977. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since the US basically has the same political system today as in the sixties - I can bring that up! And those god damn french idiots need some critisism - so go ahead.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Second, the death penalty. China excecutes a lot more people than the US does, and for lesser crimes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, and they execute "innocent" people, just as the US do. In my oppinion it doesn't matter how many you execute. I'm not "against" US death penalty, I'm just saying that it bears witness of how "far" the US legal system has evolved.

If a country needs to execute its population there also needs to be a major flaw in its political system. The death penalty shows us that the US political system is far behind in the evolution.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
I'm also trying to figure out why a lot of people seem to think their local news is the only word. You called the EU news propaganda along with the US news, but then you go on to take their viewpoint!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No Way! - I don't belive GW Bush is a retard - I belive he is very smart - and very "dangerous".

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

I was talking mostly about..
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
The difference between the chinese and you, in this sense, is that they know they live in a dictatorship.

You don't!

You think your country is "the free world", don't you?

I'm sorry to tell you that EU propaganda against the US is saying something else. Most Swedish and Danish citizens I know think that the US is alot WORSE than sovietunion ever was. You US citizens (as I refuse to call you "Americans") have no idea.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>..that.

Phoenix-D

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marty Ward:

Luc,
You're right the US is not a Democracy, we are a Republic and the election was held properly according to the laws in effect at the time of the election.

You must have spent a lot of time in our country. I've lived here over 50 years and haven't seen any country side that looks like a poor South American country. Maybe I've just been lucky.

PS-Europeans may think Bush is a moron but he was smart enough to get elected President of the most powerful country in the world. Would he have been smarter if he were elected Prime Minister of Sweden?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've heard alot of US politicians/millitary ppl say: "We must defend democracy" and such. If they weren't talking about the US maybe you know what democracy they were talking about?

Your question wether Bush would have been smarter if he was Swedish or not is irrelevant - since I was talking about PROPAGANDA. But I bet that swedish propaganda would have made Bush looked smarter if he was a Swedish minister.

I would also like to comment your statement: "...the election was held properly according to the laws in effect at the time of the election."

It shows us what kind of laws are in effect in your country. I want nothing to do with those laws, but unfortunantly I have no choice since the "too big corporations" are in power today.

And they really like that kind of UNCULTIVATED law.

Is there any culture, in the US, that doesn't bring any money? Except for a few idealists I don't think I've seen any.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
I was talking mostly about.. ...that
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...ahhh. Okay, I see. Those anti-US thoughts comes mostly from the cultural elite, and in this case the propaganda reflects the thoughts if this "elite" - not the other way around.

Europe is not "better" than US in any way, Im not saying that.

But I think we have some thoughts regarding some negative aspects of your country, that is coherent with reality - that most of the US citizens don't.

Most US citizens I've been speaking to, actually think that their country is "the best country in the world".

I like Sweden - because swedish taxpayers have payed for my education, healthcare (almost free in sweden), and has given me alot of money when I was out looking for a job. Of course, I'm a patriot - a nationalist - I love sweden.

But I KNOW that Sweden is not perfect - that many countries in the third world has things that we don't.

Money isn't everything.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:

Lucanos - Please be careful not to heap in Canada in the same pile as the US. Just because we're on the same continent and share a lot of things does not mean we practice the same politics or culture. I've lived in both countries - and find that Canadian politics have a lot more in common with European countries.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I would NEVER compare an evolved nation such as canada with a barbaric lowlife nation such as the US.

That is why I pointed out that I knew you were from Canada so you wouldn't feel bad when I critizised the US.

Unfortunantly I failed.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

It's funny how people love to criticize the U.S. as a "barbaric, lowlife nation", right up until they want our money....

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I've heard alot of US politicians/millitary ppl say: "We must defend democracy" and such. If they weren't talking about the US maybe you know what democracy they were talking about?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe because they say what sounds good? I trust a politician- especiallly a career one like, oh, Strom Thurmond (this guy ran against Truman from President in the 1940s, and he's STILL in the Senate)- about as far as I can throw them.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
But I KNOW that Sweden is not perfect - that many countries in the third world has things that we don't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Best does not equal perfect.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I like Sweden - because swedish taxpayers have payed for my education, healthcare (almost free in sweden), and has given me alot of money when I was out looking for a job. Of course, I'm a patriot - a nationalist - I love sweden.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You ARE aware that many Americans think that's wrong, right?

Our welfare system encourages leeching, really.

Heathcare- Canada apparently has a similar system. Lots of Candians come to the US for various proceedures. (aside from prescription drugs, which are ususally cheaper elsewhere because of price caps, amoung other reasons).

If you can't get an education here (past high school), you've got a problem. Between the scholarships- some offered because of merit, some because of financial situation- grants (see scholarships), low-interest, delayed payback loans and lowcost local community colleges (at least in Arizona, dunno about other states), and work-study programs, you should be able to afford an education.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
barbaric lowlife nation
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gee, thanks, I'll remember that the next time I send a letter to my Congressman about aid to other countries. You know, like the debts accumulated during WW2/1 that I think ONE nation payed back? The Marshal plan? (I'd quote more recent, but I don't have specifics offhand) The various relief organizations too, though not all of those are government funded.

Guess you'll have to get off the internet too then, seeing how it was designed mostly by US scientists..

Oh, and please explain to me why, if the US is a barbaric nation, immigrents from various countries attempt to enter all the time?

Do I need to go on?

Any country has it's failings. The US has plenty of them.

EDIT: speaking of which..

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
But I think we have some thoughts regarding some negative aspects of your country, that is coherent with reality - that most of the US citizens don't.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Explain something, please. This actually applies to both sides here, but-what negative aspects are you talking about, and why would you have a better perspective than US citizens? Where are you getting your information? You've already admitted the local news sources are propaganda right along with US news, so it isn't that, is it?

Phoenix-D

[This message has been edited by Phoenix-D (edited 19 July 2001).]

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

They're powering up their incinerator beams!

Raise shields! Full power to the engines! We'll not be caught in this potential flame war! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Phoenix-D: If I guess correctly, looks like we've got Arizonans, back-to-back.

The world doesn't stand a chance! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It's funny how people love to criticize the U.S. as a "barbaric, lowlife nation", right up until they want our money....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As an outsider (not living in the US), I can tell you the rest of the world doesn't think money is everything.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CW:
As an outsider (not living in the US), I can tell you the rest of the world doesn't think money is everything.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nor do I. I merely find it frustrating that people/nations criticize the U.S. quite harshly, then come to us begging for money.

Your complaint was that people from the west look at people from the east as second class people. I do not feel that way at all. Please do not assume that because I live in the United States that I think money is everything.

Remember too, that not that long ago in the grand scheme of things, American blood mingled with Chinese blood stopping the Japanese from from taking all of China. Perhaps we are not so evil as people would make us out to be....

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

The heat of this thread is certainly unexpected. I guess lots of people who watch the news and fume about high-handed US behavior are taking out their frustrations here. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I think US defenders need to understand that US 'bashers' are quite familiar with the fact that we lead the world in many areas. But, we do NOT lead the world in ALL areas. You would never guess that from watching/listening to US media, though. Especially political news and advertising. The constant 'patriotic' bragging and preening got so nauseating during the Reagan years that you could hardly stand to turn on the TV. It's subsided a bit since then, yet it's still far too prevalent. The attitude problem that our government displays in international contexts, crashing around like the proverbial bull in the china shop, doesn't help either. So, large numbers of Europeans who've been seeing this stuff for years run across this thread in the Shrapnel GAMES forums and vent at it. Hmm, maybe they should write letters to the editors at CNN.com, ABC/CBS/NBC.com, FOXNEWS.com, etc. They might actually attract some attention and get a feature story about the perceived arrogance of the US abroad.