Help with Abominations
 

I am facing off against a couple really nasty forces of abominations with the usual ryleh squidies. Its middle age, I am bandar, and dont have the astral income to get my S3 mages to the front lines quickly and in enough numbers to spam SOUL SLAY and eventually have the abominations MR 20 fail.
Anyone have ideas on how to deal with packs of 4-6 abominations, backed up by lots of trolls and illithids?
I have already tried lots of longbowmen - the abominations have 260+ hp. And wave upon wave of F9 blessed White One monkeys has not succeeded so far - I lost 130 monkeys to 10 trolls backed up by the abominations in my last battle.

I have some indirect attacks, like assassinating the commanders, but I was thinking more along the lines of oppostion (hasn't worked yet), and arcane bolt, which I cant hit the side of a barn with.

And does Master Enslave work on magic creatures, or only the Arcane Control? MR 20 will probably shrug it off anyway.

Re: Help with Abominations
 

You could try defeating the Illithids in magic duels with lots of Gurus. The Abominations require magical leadership.

Re: Help with Abominations
 

You might want to try forging spell foci, eyes of the void, and if possible, rune smashers. These will increase the difficulty of the MR check by the abomination.

Also, I would recommend casting the conjuration spell, whose name I can't recall off the top of my head, that gives every astral mage on the battlefield +1 astral. This should make it easier to spam soul slay.

Jazzepi

Re: Help with Abominations
 

You may want to think more along the lines of SCs. Sending in 1 guy with a good MR and high defense should make him pretty resilient to what the aboms can throw down. Bandar has some pretty good national summons, don't remember the name but there's one for 35 pearls which has 4 arms and a map move of 10. Not too hard to get that guy into the upper 20's (or lower 30's) defense, and equip some swords with real bite - and you won't have much trouble getting him to the front lines. Script resist magic, mirror image, personal luck, body ethereal (for the trolls), mistform and I bet you'll dance around unscathed until you whittle them down. He's a priest to, in case you've got a good bless.

Re: Help with Abominations
 

Has astral. Will die to magic duel by the Illithids the second time he ever attacks. Losing all his expensive gear.

Re: Help with Abominations
 

As far as relatively cheap counters go, I am a fan of moon-blade weilding thugs. So, something like a Sleeper or a Bane Lord (10 or 12 gems) with a Moon Blade (3 gems w/hammer), Boots of Quickness (7 gems w/hammer), and a Amulet of Antimagic (3 gems w/hammer).

So, that's 10 or 12 + 3 + 7 + 3 = 23 or 25 gems a piece. That is what an abomination costs, and I believe they should be able to take down at least one before they die:

They've got about 15 strength, right? + 11 damage from Moon Blade x 2 (magic being) = 52 damage x 2 (quickness) = 104 damage.

Maybe 2-3 rounds and they will kill an abomination each. I don't think the abomination can kill them in 2-3 rounds because abominations don't have that great of an attack skill from what I remember, and these thugs will have 16-17 something defense.

Also that Ether Warriors spell would be great because all of them have moon blades, although that is 90 gems.

Edit: of course a real SC would be better if you got it.

Re: Help with Abominations
 

I'm not sure if Abominations can get afflictions.. but since they are big and they rely on life drain to handle the damage they take you might as well spend some yogi's next time you fight them cursing every last one of them. That isn't a solution, but it's easy, and it helps.

Re: Help with Abominations
 

CUnknown - I think Abominations have 3, high strength lifedrain attacks at 15 attack each. High strength+AP+good attack=dead sleeper/banelord.
Even if he died, a teleporting 4 armed guy with boots of quickness and 2 moonblades might(probably not but maybe) be able to get a few kills in before dying(consider adding strength/attack boosters).

Re: Help with Abominations
 

That's a nasty mix you're fighting... sounds too organized to be from an AI opponent.
First use Doom to curse all of them.
Second make sure you're casting anti-magic in battle for better protection against those Aboms.
Third organize an army to do master enslave... it will work on enough enemy troops to keep them fighting amongst themselves for the first three rounds of combat. This allows those 120 monkeys to get close... I imagine most previously died marching toward the enemy. Make sure the caster of master enslave has eye of void, spell foci, and rune master for better results.
Fourth create a group(4 or 5) thugs to support your army. Have the thugs equipped with some nasty weapons such as the moon blade... you've created a good group of thugs when most of them survive big battles.

Re: Help with Abominations
 

A elfbane may be better than a moonblade for that kind of thing, actually. Instakillmagicbeing.

Cast "mass flight" and script to attack large monsters. Your monkeys should be all over them.

Re: Help with Abominations
 

Elfbane gives the target a MR roll - so it's pretty much useless against high mr Abodominations.

Re: Help with Abominations
 

As burnsaber mentions the elfbane won't be very effective against high MG resistance. The elfbane is great against vine ogres.

Also as bandar log it doesn't have access to air magic with any of its mages so 'mass flight' won't be easy unless his pretender has good air magic and already summoned some air queens.

Re: Help with Abominations
 

Aboms have regen. Unless you can seriously outnumber him with mages you won't win in a straight up fight at this stage with Bandar. The problem with your battle mages are, their best spells are all countered by astral magic. Not only do Ryleh summons have good MR, they can antimagic, use their own astrals, etc. On that note, ALWAYS start your big battles with will of the fate and antimagic against Ryleh.

Re: Help with Abominations
 

Remeber, of all summons, trolls cost upkeep (60 gold, 4 upkeep apiece). So do the Illithids at 50 gold. If you're seriously outnumbered, consider economic warfare

First, scorched earth tactics. If you can't beat their army, deny them gain. Raze your fortresses and labs in proximity, tax the hell out of things, and tell me they don't have Astral Travel.

Second, use your stealthy Atavi in small teams that won't be instantly detected. Say, 20 apiece. Archers will probably be your best bet, given R'lyeh's generally low protection. If you need more, have them converge on the same province, then disperse afterward. Reclaim the territory faster than they can take it, or force them to break their mega army into manageable chunks. If they're headed for your capital...

Raid them underwater if you can, though it will be risky. You've got cheap mages you can risk scrying for vulnerabilities. Your Rishis and national summons will grant you a few more options than most nations, but almost every underwater summon has poor, poor MR. Kraken might be tempting (if you actually had affordable water mages), but them and Sea Lions need antimagic support to have so much as a CHANCE of survival.

Re: Help with Abominations
 

Lazy_P has offered the best advice. You have got to always remember in this game that you do not have to always defeat a foe in direct combat. Dom3 has multiple options available to achieve the same result. His strategy is easily implemented in one or two turns. The AI will do something similar to you by making you chase a relatively feeble army through a dozen provinces.

One thing that will work is to equip mundane commanders with etheral Xbows. They are cheap and easily forged by bandar and if you get a hit, I am almost positive even an abomination is gone "POOF". It may take a few turns to get most of them, but it is an inexpensive and doable option.

The other strategies are good advice, but they are likely to require several turns to put in place. Better to implment what is immediately available. Most of the time I find that I cannot summon and equip more than 2 thugs a turn, so building a force of 5/6 is 3 turns.

I like Bandar Log, but I wish they had some death access to use my favorite thug, Bane Lords. Bandar can get sleepers and all their national summons (which I think are great) but I am unsure if they are any good against abominations.

Re: Help with Abominations
 

Some good suggestions! I should have given some more info, though. This is a mp game, and its a humie player. My armies are routinely will of fated, and anti magic is up. The 3 life drains and the AoE of 5 square other attack they have makes big holes in my army regardless. This, and another army, is backed up by 2 castings of earth trolls, and about 20 odd normal illithids doing the usual paralyze. And yes, i rarely get into melee, and when i do, its with the little monkeys from PD.
The abominations are cursed (from the past 2 battles where I lost 120-odd and 90-odd monkeys), and each has 2-4 afflictions -none of them disease, sadly.
Longbowmen inflicted the afflictions, but they didnt stick around long enough, and i didnt get any of the abominations even below 150 hps.

The economic warfare has already begun - raging hearts with my one Fire king, baleful star, and locust swarms. Its going to take time, though.

I have tried the Atavis- they cannot get past the 30 plus PD that i encounter, and with no stealthy monkey mages, i just lose them.
I like the idea of the crossbows, and the sleepers. I too wish I had some death magic. I did note that I have access to Bandar blood national summons, but my blood income has just started.

I am waiting for the turn to cycle, and have done some things, but since my opponent checks these (hi Unwise!) every so often, I will hold off on what i have done.

Re: Help with Abominations
 

The army you described sounded unlike any AI army I've ever seen, so the MP game makes sense.

IMHO, your best bet is to declare victory and depart the field.

Re: Help with Abominations
 

On the topic of ethereal xbows, I should point out, I am relatively certain it is Magic negatable (even though it doesn't say on the item). If that's true, I wouldn't use them because of the fact that your guys already have pretty poor precision.

Re: Help with Abominations
 

the crossbow is definately MR negates.

Here's a really weird idea: living statue wall. They should live through the gaze, and they're lifeless so lifestealing isnt as big an issue. Back up with mages, as always.

Re: Help with Abominations
 

Uhmm... 30 PD is nasty for R'lyeh. Ug.

So, beating the abominations is sorta outa the question, is there any way you can take out the support by focusing on the lesser threat?

Trolls & Illithids certainly have enough MR...
Though the biggest creature is often targeted first...

Half-baked ideas:
Arcane Bolt (AN, ignores MR?). Damage is kinda sad, though I suppose a communion might make it meaner.
Stellar Cascades (Stun damage? AoE5, no MR?)... If you can't beat em, sleep em?. You don't really have a price advantage to your mage, though. But you do have a middle-ground in the guru. Still, though, you only are facing how many abominations? You don't need the cascades to take out their entire army, just the big threats.

Swarm- Your available everywhere Gurus can cast it. But your facing two castings, or about 40 trolls... They don't have a MR worth mentioning, but you could easily get 100 on the field in one round of combat. At least you'll keep the trolls off of you?

Howl? Wolves appear on edge of battlefield. Nah... even unarmored Illithids have a base protection of five, and 28 hitpoints. Nine strength just won't cut it.

Breath of the Dragon/Poison Cloud. Only the abominations have PR...

Spam panic? It'll cost you a large number of nature gems using Gurus, though. And while Illithids aren't brave, they aren't in the frontline either. Stupidest idea ever: blink->panic.

If you have Rikshi in the area, w/nature boosters, Creeping Doom could swamp them. I mean, for 12 nature gems (Thistle Mace, plus fatigue cost) you can summon 70 ants. Go for three Rikshi with the right picks or a Treelord's staff, and you could get 70x2x3 or 420+ ants slowing them down.

So take these with a grain of salt. I've never faced abominations or summoned them myself. And, it's after a long day of work, brain cylinders might easily be misfiring. In fact, I'm pretty sure they are. However, there may still be some merit in focusing on the support troops rather than the big bad.

Re: Help with Abominations
 

Forge some boots of earth and take all of your earth 2 yogis, equip them with the boots and use Gifts from heaven. You should have 5 or 6 of those at the stage of the game where you have Aboms running around.

You can also assemble an army of the meaty monkeys, the bandars have 20 health. Take your F9 pretender and cast Warriors of Muspelheim and then cast a Flame storm. Take one of your N4 Yogis and cast mass regeneration. His trolls will take extra damage. Combined with will of the fates. Follow up with some pillars of fire with your pretender.

Re: Help with Abominations
 

Don't bother with the meatie monkeys. Abominations will eat them up anyway. Instead scatter your markatas all over the place as cheap chaff followed with some faster stronger troops on the side with attack rears. Gifts of earth is a good idea. Summon earthpower should let your e2's cast it without the boots though I'm not certain if yogis can get e2? (Don't play thsi nation much).

Re: Help with Abominations
 

Buy 3 or 4 Bandar commanders, you can set the meaty monkeys on guard commander. Put the commanders on the back half of your side of the field and spread the commanders out. script the commanders with HoldX4 and attack. Put a few markatas up front and spread them out as decoys. The range 20 of the Abominations will make them charge forward to get in range, meanwhile your firestorm is killing the trolls. Use your fire king and pretender to cast pillars of flame once you get Flame storm/warriors of mupelheim setup. And again, that is just one army. The second army use chaff up front and bomb him with gifts from heavan.